| Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | Budinsky 09:24 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| RE "And when a few choruses of “That’s What Friends Are For” suddenly cropped up, I had to restrain my gag reflex. I didn’t know that Mr. Bacharach wrote the music for this treacly Warwick hit from the 1980s (with Carole Bayer Sager as lyricist), and frankly I wish he hadn’t." Recorded in 1985 to benefit the American Foundation for AIDS Research, "That's What Friends Are For" raised millions of dollars for that organization at a time when AIDS was decimating populations -- principally gay men in this country -- and was spreading virtually unchecked. Nearly 30 years later, as you blithely share your wish that Burt Bacharach hadn't written the music for that "treacly Warwick hit" (initially sung, for accuracy's sake, by Gladys Knight, Elton John and Stevie Wonder as well as Dionne Warwick), I would like to point out that plenty of souls, some still walking on this earth and others dearly departed, feel differently. Suggestion: Next time you find yourself in the unforeseen and uncomfortable situation of having to listen to "That's What Friends Are For" again, rather than restrain your gag reflex, why don't you let that cynicism-flavored bile flow and choke on it. Just a little. | |
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| I love that song | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 10:10 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - Budinsky 09:24 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| I don't care what he says… I love the song and the Warwick performance of it. I find it very touching… and I didn't even know it had an AIDS connection. I know it's saccharine but it's a a song not an entire show, and it hits the right now for what it does, in my opinion. | |
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| re: I love that song | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 10:52 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | I love that song - Chazwaza 10:10 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| It seems to me that you and Ish are not that far apart-the distance between overly sweet and artificially sweet. | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | StageLover 10:43 am EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - Budinsky 09:24 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| Agreed. But why be surprised? Brantley and Ishwerwood relish their roles as the Queens of Snark. | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | portenopete 11:47 am EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - StageLover 10:43 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| And God knows that no one on this board ever indulges in snark. Heaven forfend. | |
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| re: HEY YOU | |
| Posted by: | SQ 09:55 am EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - Budinsky 09:24 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| It is okay not to like the song itself because it is "treacly". | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | writerkev 09:47 am EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - Budinsky 09:24 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| Isn't it possible Isherwood might applaud the charitable impulse that led to the song while still disliking the song itself? "Screw you?" Seriously? I think you're letting your emotions run away with you a bit. He's talking about his opinion of a song. | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | lowwriter 01:31 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - writerkev 09:47 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| I always preferred You've Got a Friend to That's What Friends Are For. | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | MockingbirdGirl 09:43 am EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - Budinsky 09:24 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| (initially sung, for accuracy's sake, by Gladys Knight, Elton John and Stevie Wonder as well as Dionne Warwick) Well if we're going to be accurate, then let's note that it was initially sung by Rod Stewart for the soundtrack to the movie Night Shift, and when written, had absolutely nothing to do with the AIDS crisis. I'm glad it raised money for a worthwhile cause, but I also find it pretty treacly, and invariably switch stations when I hear it. Sorry. | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 11:19 am EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - MockingbirdGirl 09:43 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| >I'm glad it raised money for a worthwhile cause, but I also find it pretty treacly, and invariably switch stations when I hear it. Sorry. Yeah. Me too. The money raised is a wonderful thing, but we don't all have to think it's a good song because of it. | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | Thom915 (Thom915@aol.com) 12:53 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - MikeR 11:19 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| If you read the original poster (heaven forbid!) he did not criticize Isherwood for not liking the song but rather for the remark that he wished Bacharach hadn't written it. His point was that treacly or not, the song thanks to Bacharach's work in writing it and generosity in letting it be used to raise money for the charitable cause should be applauded no matter what one thinks of the artistic nature. The song had its purpose served its purpose and accomplished much more good in the world than many of Bacharach's more successfully artistic achievements. I appreciate what all the artists involved contributed rather than wish they hadn't. (And if any of us seem a bit hysterical it is because so much work still needs to go on to be done.) | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 04:52 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - Thom915 12:53 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| >> His point was that treacly or not, the song thanks to Bacharach's work in writing it and generosity in letting it be used to raise money for the charitable cause should be applauded no matter what one thinks of the artistic nature. This is wrong on so many levels. A bad song is a bad song and this is a bad song. It may have been used to raise money but that just makes it a bad song used to raise money, exactly what Isherwood wrote. The decision was made to use pop singers to raise money. If they hadn't chosen this one they could have chosen another. The song had bombed on its own. The performers were all by this time in their careers selling primarily albums, not top 40 singles. The song was a hit because it was being used (and promoted ) as a fundraiser. Someone mentioned "You've Got A Friend" - which I agree is a better song - I'm sure had they used it it would have been a hit as we'll. Isherwood is right. | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | Budinsky 11:29 am EST 12/07/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - enoch10 04:52 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| RE "A bad song is a bad song and this is a bad song": Thank you for your definitive and irrefutable assessment. I had no idea you were the ultimate authority. RE "It may have been used to raise money but that just makes it a bad song used to raise money, exactly what Isherwood wrote": Not exactly, your highness. What he wrote was: "I didn’t know that Mr. Bacharach wrote the music for this treacly Warwick hit from the 1980s (with Carole Bayer Sager as lyricist), and frankly I wish he hadn’t." There's not a word about the song's role as fundraiser. | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 11:44 am EST 12/07/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - Budinsky 11:29 am EST 12/07/13 |
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| Re the first point, it seems to me you always have to assume that the person calling a song "bad" is implicitly adding "to me" to the sentence. A song is only bad if no one responds to it positively, so the most that someone can say is that they don't like it. I really don't understand what strength some people apparently gain from pretending they have some formula for discerning everyone else's taste. Re the second point, what we have is a classic case of a premise that exists only on ATC, that somehow takes on a life of its own. | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | Budinsky 12:41 am EST 12/08/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - ryhog 11:44 am EST 12/07/13 |
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| RE "...you always have to assume that the person calling a song 'bad' is implicitly adding 'to me' to the sentence": No, I don't have to always assume anything. If he/you meant "to me," then he he/you should have clearly stated such -- which he/you didn't. RE "A song is only bad if no one responds to it positively, so the most that someone can say is that they don't like it": That makes no sense at all. RE "...what we have is a classic case of a premise that exists only on ATC, that somehow takes on a life of its own": This is even more senseless than the previous quote which would seem an impossibility as that one made no sense. | |
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| Peter Allen's | |
| Posted by: | StageDoorJohnny 11:19 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - enoch10 04:52 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| Love Don't Need a Reason is a much better song and more in keeping with the AIDS crisis, tho' I don't believe it was written for that reason either -- tho it sure could have been, given the lyric | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 11:29 am EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - MikeR 11:19 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| For what it's worth, I don't think there's anything especially treacly about the music of "That's What Friends Are For." Hum it without the lyrics, and see if you agree. The lyrics start out very well with a nice, fresh-sounding sentiment: "And I never thought I'd feel this way," but then they do sort of deteriorate into cliche: "Keep smiling," "You can always count on me," "I'll be on your side forevermore," etc. Since Isherwood felt it necessary to criticize the song as treacly, he might have been more specific in blaming the lyrics, rather than seeming to take a swipe at Bacharach's music. | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 12:28 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - Michael_Portantiere 11:29 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| This thread is superficially amusing but it actually is revealing fundamental questions: should a song be evaluated based on its association with noble (or ignoble) causes,or independently? should a song's music (when written collaboratively with the lyricist) escape criticism if it would (arguably) be more palatable without the lyrics? I think the answer to both ought to be no. Regarding the latter, which is the point you raise, we spend a lot of time here arguing about whether music and lyrics are integrated in a satisfactory way. I don't think a composer can or should be let off the hook when the product of his or her work ends up in a song that some would define as treacly. This is not a case where someone's music is appropriated to support someone else's lyrics. I think it is important (and time-honored) that both members of a songwriting team hold each other's feet to the fire. | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 02:35 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - ryhog 12:28 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| I agree, ryhog. Also, as others have pointed out, "That's What Friends Are For" was not originally written as an anthem in support of people with AIDS, but as a song for the movie NIGHT SHIFT. I never knew this, or maybe I had just forgotten, but I would say the original intent has a large bearing on how "treacly" the song is or isn't. | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 02:48 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - Michael_Portantiere 02:35 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| I think it has to. Think of all the beloved songs that have recently been heard in really embarrassing context in TV commercials, and that kinda make you sick at the stomach. | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | BruceinIthaca 11:45 am EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - Michael_Portantiere 11:29 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| Well, I say it's spinach, and I say the hell with it! | |
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| Thank you for this. n/m | |
| Posted by: | TimDunleavy 10:35 am EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - MockingbirdGirl 09:43 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| n/m | |
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| re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! | |
| Posted by: | truefan 10:13 am EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - MockingbirdGirl 09:43 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| Thanks for adding a little history to this post. Historically music has use to promote good causes and bad causes. It seems harsh to blame Isherwood so violently for his reaction to that song. | |
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| Beautifully said, Budinsky! | |
| Posted by: | mendacity 09:41 am EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | Hey, Charles Isherwood: SCREW YOU! - Budinsky 09:24 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| Please send this to the Times! | |
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| Amen, thank you. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 09:42 am EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | Beautifully said, Budinsky! - mendacity 09:41 am EST 12/06/13 |
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| Absolutely. Thank you, thank you. | |
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