| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | Ronsdivas 03:05 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - MikeR 02:49 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| ...and transposing the "big number" down a full tone. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 04:01 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - Ronsdivas 03:05 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| Why shouldn't she sing it in the key that works best for her? This is done ALL THE TIME in the theater. It's about the singer and the music director knowing what's going to sound the best, and doing what it takes to achieve it. I suppose you would've been happier if she had sung it in a key that didn't work as well for her, and sounded worse? | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | Ronsdivas 04:04 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - MikeR 04:01 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| Maybe they felt the "original key" was too "operatic" a sound because Ms McDonald is certainly no Patricia Neway. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 04:16 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - Ronsdivas 04:04 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| And Neway is (was) certainly no Audra McDonald. Which gets to my point - expecting one actor to replicate the performance of another (some 60+ years later) is absurd. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | Ronsdivas 04:30 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - MikeR 04:16 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| I wasn't asking her to "replicate" her performance...just sing "Climb Ev'ry Mountain" in the key that Mr Rodgers and Hammerstein chose for the production.I assume Ms McDonald CAN sing it in key... | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 12:58 am EST 12/07/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - Ronsdivas 04:30 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| I'm not sure I understand. McDonald finished the song in D-flat major, which is the published key and the key Neway sang it in. If you want to check, the Los Angeles Times has posted a clip from the telecast, presumably with NBC's permission. | |
| URL: | Climb Ev'ry Mountain |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 01:05 am EST 12/07/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - LegitOnce 12:58 am EST 12/07/13 |
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| I'm not sure I understand. McDonald finished the song in D-flat major, which is the published key... ...in the vocal score. But the original published sheet music doesn't modulate, so it ends in C. (In other words, there really is no "THE published key," lol.) | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 04:36 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - Ronsdivas 04:30 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| But Rodgers likely put the song into the key that he felt worked best for Ms. Neway. So why shouldn't Ms. McDonald get the same consideration? | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | Ronsdivas 04:45 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - MikeR 04:36 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| Good point. So when she tries on Cunegonde...they can just find the key to make it "singable".Wow...I bet a lot of sopranos wish they had that option. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:10 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - Ronsdivas 04:45 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| In fact, during the audition process for the original production, "Glitter and Be Gay" was put in a lower key, suggesting that Bernstein was open to the possibility of having it performed in a lower key if that proved to be necessary. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | Ronsdivas 06:26 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - AlanScott 06:10 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| and when has it ever been performed lower?? | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:59 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - Ronsdivas 06:26 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| I don't know. I haven't seen every performance of it ever. Keys are changed all the time in Broadway shows, sometimes during the run, sometimes for tours, sometimes for productions in other countries and in revivals. Sondheim has particularly spoken about how he never expects the key in which he writes a song to be the key in which it will be performed. He expects that the keys in which songs will be performed will be decided based upon who is cast. In fact, Maria's music in TSOM was altered for the original London production and the Australian production, but I suspect that started with the national tour, which cast real sopranos as Maria, as did the London and Australian productions. In fact, unless my ears are deceiving me — I don't have a great sense of pitch — "Climb Ev'ry Mountain" was put in a slightly lower key in that first London production (with a great opera mezzo as the Mother Abbess). Later, June Bronhill sang it in a higher key in the revival with Petula Clark. Rodgers, who was known as such a stickler for how he wanted his music performed, nonetheless frequently went along with — perhaps even suggested or advocated — key changes for film versions, tours, replacements, etc. Carol Bruce, for example, performed Vera in Pal Joey a lot, for example, in the national tour of the revival and when that revival was reproduced in London. She sang the songs in much lower keys than the ones in which Vivienne Segal had sung them originally. And what about the fact that keys were changed for Merman during the original run of Gypsy? What about the extreme key changes in Gypsy done for Lansbury? If my understanding is correct — as I'm not a musician — this went beyond lowering most of the songs by a whole step for her when it got to "Rose's Turn," which goes through a bunch of key changes. Some keys were lowered, some were raised, thereby changing key relationships and reducing the overall range of the number. Some keys were changed for Christine Andreas when she played Eliza Doolittle. Do all of those bother you greatly? | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 12:42 am EST 12/07/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - AlanScott 06:59 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| Plus there are a lot of "ossias" (alternate notes and phrases) in "Glitter and Be Gay" so that the Cunegonde can, if she needs to, avoid some of the faster runs and the long written-out high -E-flat in the "Observe how bravely I conceal" coda. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | Ronsdivas 07:01 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - AlanScott 06:59 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| No...not at all. Thanks for your informative and not snarky answer. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 08:03 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - Ronsdivas 07:01 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| You're welcome. Actually, I was being a little snarky but I'm glad it didn't seem that way. ;) It can be tough to get used to, but it really is done all the time, for a variety of reasons. I don't doubt that McDonald has that climactic note, but it is on a potentially awkward vowel and they may have felt that she'd be able to sing it without altering the vowel so much in a lower key. If you want to hear something funny, listen to June Bronhill sing it in a higher key on the Petula Clark recording. At the end, which I think climaxes on a B flat rather than Neway's A flat, Bronhill's last two words sound something like, "yah AHHHH!" Whatever she sings on the last note seems to have no consonants at all and is certainly not an E vowel. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | Ronsdivas 08:08 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - AlanScott 08:03 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| Thanks again Alan. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 04:56 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - Ronsdivas 04:45 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| After you get through giving her "mannerism coaching" you can dictate what key she should sing in. You seem to have a problem with Audra McDonald. You're in the minority for good reason. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | Ronsdivas 05:00 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - enoch10 04:56 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| That's my choice. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | Cleveland 04:52 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - Ronsdivas 04:45 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| "I bet a lot of sopranos wish they had that option." As MikeR has already pointed out, they often do--transposition for the performer is done frequently | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | TheOtherOne 03:26 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - Ronsdivas 03:05 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| Gotta say, her acting was wonderful, and her magnificent voice was indeed in great shape, but I was surprised that she took such a noticeable breath between "your" and "dream" as she closed "Climb Ev'ry Mountain". Considering the fuss made over Carrie Underwood taking an unexpected breath during rehearsal footage, I'm also surprised no one seemed to notice. She was wonderful, though. No question. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 01:02 am EST 12/07/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - TheOtherOne 03:26 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| I noticed that breath, which amounted to massive backphrasing of the final climactic note. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 02:05 am EST 12/07/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - LegitOnce 01:02 am EST 12/07/13 |
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| Well, it appeared like she added like a two eighth note rest before singing the last note, I believe. I don't think it was done for phrasing of the lyric ("till you find your (rest) (rest) dream"). I think she wanted to rest briefly and get a good breath to sing a full final sustained note. Not a big deal, since she sounded so good! | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 11:29 am EST 12/07/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - PlayWiz 02:05 am EST 12/07/13 |
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| Well, I hate to sound curmudgeonly, but I think it is rather a big deal. As soon as the reprise of the melody starts (at "poco pesante"), Rodgers writes a steady accompaniment of half notes in a slow marching rhythm. He then emphasizes this intent motion by writing two measures of even half notes for the voice ("Till you find your..."), in contrast to the dotted and slightly syncopated vocal line the Abbess has sung until then. The effect, I think, is of a calm but resolute march, one foot in front of the other. The suggestion is that the mountain will be climbed and the stream forded not by any frantic effort but by patient and steadfast labor. That "steadfast" effect is emphasized by having the vocal part land solidly and squarely on the strong beats of the melody, as in the two measures I mentioned above. The culmination of this motion is the last dominant A-flat, anticipated in the last strong beat before the accompaniment lands solidly on the tonic D-flat major resolution. The problem with delaying that last note, i.e., singing it after the indicated beat, is that it interrupts the steady movement Rodgers has set up. The stalwart onward march is interrupted momentarily, and abruptly the emphasis is shifted away from the steady but calm rhythm Rodgers has so carefully set up. You get a good A-flat, but at the cost of the overall emotional impact of the piece. Maybe this is just a matter of taste, but I think this song is more like a classical piece than a pop song, and the classical vocal style calls for attack squarely on the beat, especially when that beat is such a powerful downbeat. If the singer needs to take a breath between "your" and "dream," the time for that breath is (in classical vocal music) always stolen from the earlier note, i.e., before the bar line, so that the attack on the strong beat can be exactly in time. Which is to say, if McDonald needed that breath, I think she should have sung "your" (quarter note), breath {quarter rest), "dream" (downbeat on measure 59). The ending of this song reminded me of one of the pitfalls of singing to pre-recorded tracks, which is that the singer is locked into a tempo that, in the moment of performance, may feel fractionally too slow or too fast. Had McDonald been singing this with a live orchestra and conductor, it would have been fairly simple for her to subtly speed up the tempo of the "poco pesante" reprise just slightly and therefore not need that long preparation for the climactic A-flat. This song is always difficult for lyric sopranos, and the last page is tiring for any sort of voice, so that last A-flat is not easy to get exactly in focus with enough breath to last for the 13 beats (plus fermata) Rodgers indicates. But the way McDonald did it felt a little desperate to me -- which is a pity, because she was so very fine everywhere else in this part. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | TheOtherOne 02:06 pm EST 12/07/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - LegitOnce 11:29 am EST 12/07/13 |
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| Very well expressed, LegitOnce. I believe the show's cast recording was released prior to the live broadcast. Did she take that breath in the studio? | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 12:19 pm EST 12/07/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - LegitOnce 11:29 am EST 12/07/13 |
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| I agree with you, and as a classically trained singer myself, it stood out as a mistake. But she was singing live and seems like she needed a breath. Otherwise she may not have either attacked the last night full on or had enough breath to sustain it as long as she wanted to. Then again, there are sopranos who leave out several phrases at the end of "Sempre libera" in "La Traviata" to have enough wind left in them to give the last few notes all they've got! Consider this Audra's mini-version of that. :) | |
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| "attacked the last note" that is. nm | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 12:26 pm EST 12/07/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - PlayWiz 12:19 pm EST 12/07/13 |
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| nm | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | Zelgo 03:31 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - TheOtherOne 03:26 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| I noticed that and actually thought it added so much to the interpretation. She separated the word "dream" from the rest of the phrase to give it special emphasis. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | TheOtherOne 03:42 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - Zelgo 03:31 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| If I liked the show more I might have watched it again to see if I heard it that way, but I did not save it and can't. To me, it sounded like she needed a breath, rebounded and gave it her all. Something which in a way only added to the live theater effect they were aiming for. This was more of an observation than a complaint. I hope that was apparent in my earlier post. | |
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| re: Isn't she always? | |
| Posted by: | FriendofDorothy 06:27 pm EST 12/06/13 |
| In reply to: | re: Isn't she always? - TheOtherOne 03:42 pm EST 12/06/13 |
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| I thought it was an acting choice. | |
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