| Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 06:20 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| Talking about Titanic below got me thinking about all the shows that won because of lack of competition, whether they were great shows or not great musicals (like Passion or Sunset Blvd)... and how some years just have 1 or 2 clear big competitors and then the others that don't reallllly have a chance of winning. It's funny how many *great* and classic shows that would be obvious winners actually won in a year with no real competition (certainly not anything that's lasted), many even in the great decades for new musicals... Annie, Sweeney Todd, Sunset Blvd, Company, Cabaret, Fiddler On the Roof, Bye Bye Birdie, How to Succeed, Evita, Cats, Big River, Drood, Rent, Hairspray, In the Heights, The Book of Mormon... all won in years when there was no other show that gave much realistic competition or "could have" or "should have" won, or that has lasted outside of a small fan base. It sure makes you think about timing and wonder what would have won if some of these opened in the same year. So I was going through to determine what years had the most legit competition. Meaning more than 2 shows nominated that could have or should have won, or could have won in another year without the juggernaut winner (like A Chorus Line or Lion King) and are lasting classics of popularity or acclaim or both. Below are the years I think are competing. It's debatable... so many years have two but not 3, like: ALNM & Pippin, Billy Elliot & Next to Normal, Follies & Grease, Into the Woods & Phantom, La Cage & Sunday in the Park, The Music Man & West Side Story, Spring Awakening & Grey Gardens, Passion & Beauty & the Beast, Titanic & The Life, The Producers & The Full Monty... Also, I'm not counting jukebox musicals. But if it has 3 I count it to compete: 1957: My Fair Lady*, Candide*, The Most Happy Fella*, Bells Are Ringing (debatable) 1960: The Sound of Music*, Gypsy*, Once Upon a Mattress*, Fiorello!* (debatable), Take Me Along 1963: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum*, Oliver!*, Little Me* (debatable), Stop the World – I Want to Get Off 1964: Hello, Dolly!*, Funny Girl*, She Loves Me*, High Spirits 1966: Man of La Mancha*, Mame*, Sweet Charity*, Skyscraper 1969: 1776*, Hair*, Zorba*, Promises, Promises (debatable) 1976: A Chorus Line*, Chicago*, Pacific Overtures*, Bubbling Brown Sugar 1982: Nine*, Dreamgirls*, Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat*, Pump Boys and Dinettes, (AND not nominated: Merrily We Roll Along*) 1991: The Will Rogers Follies* (debatable), Miss Saigon*, Once on This Island*, The Secret Garden* 1993: Kiss of the Spider Woman*, Blood Brothers*, The Who's Tommy*, The Goodbye Girl 2000* (*I'm adding this only because of Aida which wasn't nominated): Contact*, James Joyce's The Dead, Swing!, The Wild Party*, (AND not nominated either: Marie Christine) 2004: Avenue Q*, Wicked*, Caroline, or Change*, (AND not nominated: Taboo* (debatable)) 2005: Monty Python's Spamalot*, The Light in the Piazza*, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels*, The 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee* In my opinion, the toughest years may have been: 1957 1960 1964 1966 1976 1991 1993 2004 2005 But I can't pick a winner... | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 01:35 pm EST 01/17/14 |
| In reply to: | Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Chazwaza 06:20 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| I'm going with 1960. It was so tough it produced the only tie for Best Musical. Then you factor in that the tied winners did not include what many people consider the greatest musical ever written - GYPSY - which was also in the running that year. Well, that sounds like the toughest competitive year to me. There were other tough races and many years when the "best" did not win. But 1960 was a special year. Funny that of the nominees, FIORELLO! has faded the most while the others are still being produced again and again. Yet that show was the one to win the Pulitzer Prize for Drama (one of the rare times a musical has won the award.) Yeah, I'd give it to 1960 given the quality of the productions, the Pulitzer, the Tony tie, and ultimately, the legacies of those shows. | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | TheOtherOne 08:26 am EST 01/17/14 |
| In reply to: | Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Chazwaza 06:20 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| From the years you've listed, I would pick 1969. All four of those shows are excellent and would have been worthy winners. | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | BroadwayTonyJ 07:00 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Chazwaza 06:20 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| 1960 was a very competitive year. Fiorello! and Gypsy were highly respected by the critical establishment, but The Sound of Music was incredibly popular with audiences -- any one of the 3 could have won by itself. Also, 1963 was a very competitive year. While none of the 4 shows were great, they were all very good. A Funny Thing, Oliver!, and Stop the World were big commercial hits, and Little Me would have been a hit if it had won. All 4 shows were strong contenders. | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 07:10 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - BroadwayTonyJ 07:00 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| Yeah. I left off 1963 from the top competitors because only Forum and Oliver have lasted as huge hit shows. Though popular in that time, Little Me and Stop the World were both star vehicles that have not stood the test of time critically or popularly enough to make one look at that year and say "wow, imagine competing against those shows!" I only even listed it in the longer list because Little Me was revived with Martin Short and is being done at Encores this year, and is by Cy Coleman and Neil Simon. I dunno, it's debatable! | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | keikekaze 12:37 am EST 01/17/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Chazwaza 07:10 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| I think Little Me is a better musical than meets the eye in revivals. They keep monkeying around with it in revivals--and messing it up in the casting (dividing up Caesar's roles or casting only one Belle Poitrine, or both) or in coarsening the book. But they do keep reviving it, because as it was originally written and staged, it was a very good musical, besides being a very funny show (in that anything-for-a-laugh Producers/Spamalot/BOM manner). If only they'd revive it instead of trying to revise it! And, of course, you need a brilliant comic in the Caesar roles--not merely an actor (or two) who can be amusing. | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | chrisampm 07:32 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Chazwaza 07:10 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| Aren't you changing the terms of your premise? The issue shouldn't be what we'd now consider leading competitors but which shows that year had a reasonable chance to win. | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 07:38 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - chrisampm 07:32 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| My terms and premise were a bit foggy from the beginning. Because I'm doing it looking back and thinking "imagine THOSE shows competing in the same year", especially in the larger context of "look how many classic winners won with basically no real competition." It's not a perfect system though. | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | EvFoDr 06:41 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Chazwaza 06:20 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| One could go in a lot of directions with this, but I'd vote for 2004. 2 commercial hits with lots of attention that would both go on to have long runs, plus the highly lauded and artistic Caroline which one couldn't entirely dismiss even though it seemed less likely. I'm not sure about 1982. This is sincere question since I didn't live through it, but did anyone really think the extended children's theatre piece--not to mention generally derided by anyone I know except for some love for Beechman--Joseph was a true contender? Up against Tune and Bennett at the top of their games? I think the more interesting question here is how Nine swooped in and pulled the win over Dreamgirls, but that's another thread. I do personally think Nine is the better show, although I count both of them in my top five fave musicals of all time. | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 06:50 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - EvFoDr 06:41 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| I had a question about that too... I didn't live through it either, but because Joseph is such a popular show around the world, for God-knows what reason, and because ALW was such a big success between 1972 and 1984, I figured it was worth assuming the show was a threat. And it sounds to me, from what I've read and seen, that Nine was just a more relatable story with more comedy and even more an EVEN more showy/spectacular staging than Dreamgirls. Nowadays I can't imagine a season with either show, it might make heads explode with the talent behind the scenes. (I think both shows are great, but I have never been as taken with Dreamgirls as many others, whereas Nine enchants and haunts me (despite a few silly things here or there). I'm sure if I'd seen Bennett's production, it would have. But I didn't see Tune's production of Nine, so I can only take the shows as the material. (and both made movies I didn't like, though Dreamgirls was certainly better as a movie). However neither show is in my top 5, or even probably my top 10, but Dreamgirls wouldn't even make the top 25. | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | allineedisthegirl 04:32 pm EST 01/17/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Chazwaza 06:50 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| ". . . because Joseph is such a popular show around the world, for God-knows what reason," One big reason is it's so easy to do. Elementary and high schools can do it. Churches can do it, synagogues can do it. You can do it in your back yard. Dreamgirls and Nine. . . not so much. db | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | EvFoDr 06:58 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Chazwaza 06:50 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| "Nowadays I can't imagine a season with either show, it might make heads explode with the talent behind the scenes." Amen to that! I am often in awe that they came from the same season. I think another simple reason for the Nine edge is that it opened something like the last day or a few days before the Tony eligibility cut off date. Dreamgirls had been running since December. We know that often the "fresh in mind" spring shows have an edge. | |
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| Tony cut-off openings | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 07:06 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - EvFoDr 06:58 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| Yes... I just posted about this with regard to FOLLIES. Nine had the edge because it opened JUST before the cut off. It was a dazzeling new show that was the freshest it could possibly be in voters minds (and fresh PR too). Follies had the misfortune of being open a year before the Tony Awards it was eligible for happened. | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | jimmie 06:37 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Chazwaza 06:20 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| I would suggest 1960 was the most competitive year. Fiorello! and The Sound of Music tied for the Best Musical Tony. Outside of that I think you raise an interesting question. | |
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| i love how you mark the winning musical as "debatable" | |
| Posted by: | dramedy 06:36 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Chazwaza 06:20 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| Fiorello! and Will Rogers Follies. If they won, the are the front runner and competition. Not exactly sure why they are debatable entries. | |
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| i'm a complicated man | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 06:39 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | i love how you mark the winning musical as "debatable" - dramedy 06:36 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| Yes.. you're right. I'm writing these with my current perspective, and neither Fiorello! nor WRF have truly stood the test of time at this current time. But because they won, they should be exempt from that logic. | |
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| how can you skip 1972 | |
| Posted by: | dramedy 06:29 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Chazwaza 06:20 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| Grease*, Follies*, Two Gentleman From Verona* (winner) and Ain't supposed to die a natural death. Jesus Christ Superstar* also premiered that season and wasn't nominated. | |
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| re: how can you skip 1972 | |
| Posted by: | BroadwayTonyJ 06:45 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | how can you skip 1972 - dramedy 06:29 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| '72 was a very competitive year. The intelligentsia and Sondheim fans loved Follies (so did I!), but it was a long-running flop and the Tony doesn't often go to commercially unsuccessful shows. Grease and Two Gentlemen from Verona were very popular smash hits so there were 3 very legitimate contenders. | |
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| Follies | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 07:03 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: how can you skip 1972 - BroadwayTonyJ 06:45 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| I dunno... I think when you have Best Director(s), Best Choreography, Best Score, Best Actress, Best Costume and Scenic and Lighting design (and nominated for Best Book, another Best Actress, Best Featured Actor)... you stand a good chance at people thinking it's the Best Musical. It also won the Drama Critics Circle Award for Best Musical... but of 1971. Follies had already been open over a YEAR when the 1972 Tony Awards happened. I think if it had Sondheim/Prince had done Follies first instead of Company, and Follies opened when it could compete for the 1971 Tony, it would have won, not only because it would have beat the competition that year, but also because it wouldn't have had a chance to be a failure at the box office... if it had opened right before the Tony nomination cut off, and only been running a few months when the Tonys happened, it might very well have won. And I think if it had opened in November of 1971 instead of April 1971, it very well could have won because it wouldn't have had a year to perform at the box office. This raises another interesting question about timing... | |
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| Coupla points for Verona | |
| Posted by: | thtrgoer 10:17 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | Follies - Chazwaza 07:03 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| At the time, it was welcomed as a joyous + effective celebration of racial diversity. Normally that would count for a lot on this board, but time has gone by, the original prdctn is not that well-remembered (I was too young to see it), and the show committed the original sin of beating Follies. It's like the Jews rejecting Jesus 3 times when Pontius Pilate asked them, in terms of traditionally never-to-be-forgiven things. :) Also, with the show being so well-liked at the time, it actually could plausibly have won Best Score and possibly other awards that it didn't win. It should be considered that some of Follies' awards may have received many votes as consolation prizes by voters who knew they were voting for Verona as best musical. | |
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| Yes, add in 1972! | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 06:37 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | how can you skip 1972 - dramedy 06:29 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| Ah, thank you. If I'd remembered JSC I would have added it in... but hesitated because I don't consider Two Gentlemen to be a lasting classic of any kind... which is probably silly for this topic because it did win. But with JCS in there, then definitely. (and obviously Grease, and Follies is my favorite musical so yes) | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | Yikes11 06:29 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Chazwaza 06:20 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| Don't forget Music Man vs. West Side Story. Shockingly, the former, milk toast prod. won. 1958: The Music Man – Book by Meredith Willson and Franklin Lacey, music and lyrics by Meredith Willson. West Side Story – Book by Arthur Laurents, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Stephen Sondheim. New Girl in Town – Book by George Abbott, music and lyrics by Bob Merrill. Based on the play Anna Christie by Eugene O'Neill. Oh, Captain! – Book by Al Morgan and José Ferrer, music and lyrics by Jay Livingston and Ray Evans. Based on the movie The Captain's Paradise. Jamaica – Book by E. Y. Harburg and Fred Saidy, music by Harold Arlen, lyrics by E. Y. Harburg. | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | Page 07:10 am EST 01/17/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Yikes11 06:29 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| When I was 4-years-old my parents took me into the city of Chicago to see Forrest Tucker in The Music Man, which had just opened at the Shubert Theater. My first time ever seeing a new Broadway show on national tour. I was too young to comprehend the synopsis but just old enough to know how much fun all those kids were having on that stage. The acting bug had struck and I knew on that night how I wanted to spend my life. I have the Shubert Playbill & souvenir program from this production in my enormous collection of theatrical memorabilia. | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 06:35 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Yikes11 06:29 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| I bow to no one in my love for West Side Story, but The Music Man is one of the finest musicals ever written. There is nothing shocking about its Tony win. (FYI, the word you're looking for is "milquetoast," and it means "a timid, meek, or unassertive person." I can't see how that word can be applied to a production of any musical.) | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | keikekaze 12:57 am EST 01/17/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - MikeR 06:35 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| I bow to many in my love for West Side Story, which I've always found excessively bombastic and self-important, and I'll flatly state that The Music Man is, all things considered, a better musical. It may not be a better dance performance, or a better "conception by Jerome Robbins," or Stephen Sondheim's Broadway debut--but it is a better musical. Don't let it's (perfectly deliberate) corniness fool you, folks. It disguises its craft very craftily. | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 04:18 pm EST 01/17/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - keikekaze 12:57 am EST 01/17/14 |
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| I don't think it is *better*... I think they are both in a short list of the greatest musicals ever written. I don't know what makes you so confident as to declare it "better", but it's not true just because you think it or say it. They couldn't be more different, and they are two of the most acclaimed and beloved and popular shows ever... I don't think one has a point over the other in any category. At that point it's just about preference. | |
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| re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 11:59 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - MikeR 06:35 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| >> There is nothing shocking about its Tony win. oh, i don't know. MM has many wonderful things going for it - a big one for this production being an indisputable star turn in robert preston - but it pales in comparison to WSS, which even in retrospect seems groundbreaking and revolutionary on almost every level. though ultimately you're right. 9 times out of 10 - and now that the pesky critics have been removed in favor of out of town bookers it can only get worse - the TONY tends to go to the commercial and conservative and very recently, more often than not, to the downright mediocre. | |
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| but that was really between two musicals | |
| Posted by: | dramedy 06:32 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Which was the toughest competitive year for Best Musical? - Yikes11 06:29 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| the other nominees didn't have a chance. the original post was looking for seasons with at least 3 potential winners. | |
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| re: but that was really between two musicals | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 06:40 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | but that was really between two musicals - dramedy 06:32 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| Exactly. I mentioned this year in my listings of the big two-fer years, but none of the other nominees stood a chance nor have they stood the test of time. | |
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| I can do that | |
| Posted by: | chrismpls 07:44 pm EST 01/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: but that was really between two musicals - Chazwaza 06:40 pm EST 01/16/14 |
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| I'm surprised more have not spoken up for 1976. Two of the longest-running musicals ever, both pretty much certified classics, as well as one of Sondheim's most beautiful scores in a show that is not constantly revivable but is also a classic of a kind. | |
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