| The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| With the opening of Rocky tonight and Bullets on its way, I was thinking of the last great musical that opened in NYC - and it just so happened to open this month 39 years ago - the original production of A Little Night Music. It was a perfect creative blending of every element of musical theater . A show for adults written by adults. Nothing better since then, unfortunately. Yes, A Chorus Line was later but it has a weakish score, and it doesn't stand up well today - as its revival will attest. The British invasion of the 1980s pop operas was all about special effects, but not much else. After that, what? Scores written by composers of jingles that wink at the audience because they know they're inferior and believe by mocking the genre that they can get away with a lousy show... Musicals whose pyrotechnics and screeching sopranos are suppose to spare us from the boredom of their ordinary scores and books... Cartoons regurgitated on stage... Rock musicals written by people who don't know how to tell a coherent story... Juke box musicals whose scores are clumsily shoehorned into a book show? Yes, A Little Night Music was the last great musical to open on Broadway. But, I guess, the search goes on. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | mikem 10:01 am EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| JayBee, I'm curious how many great musicals you think there are in all. I'm guessing your number is pretty small (5 - 10), while I think others have a looser definition of "great musical" (maybe 30 - 50 great musicals), which is where some of the disagreement comes from. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | JayBee 07:32 am EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Thank you all for your passionate responses. I would love to know how many people posting on this thread actually saw the original production of Night Music. I'd wager few. (No need to respond. It is a personal musing.) Now, the last great play to open on Broadway was --- Never mind. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 12:06 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 07:32 am EDT 03/14/14 |
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| And as I have and others have said a few times now in this thread, unless you have seen every major musical in nyc since 1973, in its original nyc production, then you cannot claim that ALNM is the last great one, and also if you haven't seen them ALL then you cannot outrightly dismiss the opinions of people who know ALNM well but didn't see the original production in 1973. And as I said before, what is the point of starting a thread here that dismisses or objects to the opinions of anyone born at least after 1960 if not 1957 or 1952 (when a person would be 13, 16, or 21, 13 being the youngest possible age one could even see ALNM and have a valid opinion of it... but I would argue that 16 or 18 are the youngest, and that's assuming they are pretty sophisticated teenagers). Now I know you're thinking that as (probably) an nyc resident all or most of those years, and as someone who has seen possibly MOST of the notable musicals on Broadway and off (that's quite a lot, as you said "in nyc" no "on broadway"), you're probably thinking that if you didn't see it you heard the cast album and because you have good taste you can tell from the album that the material wasn't going to be in contention for "Last Great Musical" no matter how good the production was (just as I could tell ALNM was a great musical just from hearing the CD before ever seeing it or even reading the script). But I'm afraid that's still short-sighted and unfair, and not in line with the harsh criteria you've set up. (I mean, I'm sure if I was Tommy Tune's production of NINE with the original cast, I wouldn't harp on some of the less than perfect things I picked out listening to it on CD... but to someone seeing it live it might have been the greatest thing ever or at least that they've seen, or at least better than everything they've seen since) | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 07:51 am EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 07:32 am EDT 03/14/14 |
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| If you don't want people to respond, why wonder on the board like that? As I mentioned below, I saw it three times. I love Sondheim, and I loved the production, but it's among the lesser Sondheim shows for me. I find too many of the lyrics a bit too knowing for the characters, or problematic in other ways, although brilliantly crafted, of course. I find much of the writing in the book to be straining for an elegance and wit that it too often fails to achieve. And I find some of the characters under-musicalized, yet I find "It Would Have Been Wonderful" an unnecessary though entertaining song. I wish that some different song-placement choices had been in the second act. That said, there are many things that I love about the show, even some things about the book. But it's not one of my favorites. Less quintet and more singing for the principal characters would have been nice, although I like the quintet's material. It sounded in one of your posts below like you were saying that if someone hadn't seen the original production he had no right, or at least no basis, on which to comment on your statement that Night Music was the last great musical. Perhaps you were joking. I couldn't tell. If you weren't, that seems odd (as others suggested indirectly). I mean, if I'd seen the original production of Carousel and said it was the last great material, and if you didn't see the original production you were not qualified to disagree, that would be very silly, for reasons that I think are fairly obvious. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:25 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - AlanScott 07:51 am EDT 03/14/14 |
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| The Light in the Piazza would rank high on my personal list of favorite musicals of the last 20 years or so, probably no. 2 or 3. With a few minor revisions and clarificatons, it might have been no. 1. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 06:39 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - AlanScott 06:25 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| I'd be very curious what your top 5 or 10 musicals of the last 20 years (or so) are. (hell, go for 30 yrs if you want) | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 07:21 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - Chazwaza 06:39 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| Oh, there are so many shows that I didn't see that I feel I should have seen and that perhaps would have made this list if I had, but of what I've seen, here are my faves (sticking strictly to the last 20 years and not necessarily in order of preference): Adding Machine The Light in the Piazza Fun Home Parade Dirty Rotten Scoundrels Grey Gardens Floyd Collins Passion (that one gets in just under the wire timewise) I may be forgetting something. Runner-ups would be The Wild Party (LaChiusa) and Spring Awakening. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 07:45 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - AlanScott 07:21 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| Very interesting. My top 10 list would including these 12: (not in order) The Wild Party (LaChiusa) Grey Gardens Spring Awakening Parade Bernarda Alba Ragtime The Light in the Piazza Floyd Collins Caroline or Change Violet Hairspray Hedwig and the Angry Inch Runners Up might include: Rent A New Brain Adding Machine Dessa Rose Taboo Fun Home Avenue Q Book of Mormon See What I Wanna See Next to Normal Marie Christine There are others I enjoyed a lot (like In the Heights) but that haven't meant anything to me outside the theater. I haven't seen nor am I familiar with Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 08:13 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - Chazwaza 07:45 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| No passion for Passion? | |
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| make that 13 | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 08:23 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - AlanScott 08:13 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| Yes, absolute Passion for Passion. I thought I'd written it in there. I guess if I had to cut 3 from that list for some arbitrary reason of having to arbitrarily make a top 10 list for the last 20 years... No, I can't, all 13 are absolutely exceptional, unique and wonderful pieces of musical theater. (I'd cut Hairspray first, but it's the only old fashioned-style musical comedy so hard to cut it.. then and Grey Gardens because most of what I love is the 2nd act, though the 2nd act is more brilliant than most full shows, then Violet? I don't know! Not that anyone asked) | |
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| That was meant as a response to chatter. Need more coffee or food. (nm) | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:34 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - AlanScott 06:25 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| nm | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | chatter 06:17 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - AlanScott 07:51 am EDT 03/14/14 |
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| What about Light in the Piazza? I adored it. | |
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| Sorry about the typos | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 05:30 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - AlanScott 07:51 am EDT 03/14/14 |
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| "I mean, if I'd seen the original production of Carousel and said it was the last great material . . ." Yeah, that should have been musical, not material. And I left out made in this sentence. "I wish that some different song-placement choices had been made in the second act." | |
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| I think Night music is dull and plodding.. | |
| Posted by: | Glitter 04:59 am EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| ... even though I like a lot of Sondheim, Night Music doesn't grab my interest or earbuds. The story just isn't that interesting to me. Great musicals since then? City of Angels, Kiss of the Spider Woman, The Wild Party, all dazzled me. | |
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| Actually, it did NOT open 39 years ago this month | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 12:04 am EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Unless we're still in February. | |
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| re: Actually, it did NOT open 39 years ago this month | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 12:36 am EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | Actually, it did NOT open 39 years ago this month - AlanScott 12:04 am EDT 03/14/14 |
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| That's understandable. It sure still f-ing FEELS like February...:-( | |
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| re: Actually, it did NOT open 39 years ago this month | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 12:42 am EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Actually, it did NOT open 39 years ago this month - Chromolume 12:36 am EDT 03/14/14 |
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| That should change tomorrow. I hope. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | ashleylm 07:07 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| it just so happened to open this month 39 years ago - the original production of A Little Night Music. It was a perfect creative blending of every element of musical theater. If your definition of greatness is "a perfect creative blending of every element of musical theater," then it fails your own standard, as it hardly blended Dance at all, but rather left it off to the side as a negligible garnish that's not intended to be eaten. Chacun a son Goût. | |
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| off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 07:24 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - ashleylm 07:07 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| What would people say is the last great musical that did that? A Chorus Line? Nine? Once On This Island? Kiss of the Spider Woman? Hairspray? | |
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| re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" | |
| Posted by: | ashleylm 12:46 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" - Chazwaza 07:24 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| And I don't remotely believe that a show must excel at "every element of musical theater" in order to be great. The elements of the show itself (independent of the production) are Music, Lyrics, Book, and the production's elements are Acting, Singing, Dancing, Direction, Lighting, and Set & Costume Design. Sure a show with unexceptional lighting and blocking but with a spectacular book, score, and performances would be something worth seeing! My favourite film of all time is All About Eve (1950). It's cinematography didn't set the world on fire, but the script was so witty and the performances so apt, I love it. It did what it needed to do. Next to Normal doesn't have a big dance chorus, but doesn't require it. Scottsboro Boys didn't break the bank on costumes, but I was sobbing at the end. I personally really disliked the Light in the Piazza set, but loved, loved, loved the production anyway. | |
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| re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 01:25 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" - ashleylm 12:46 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| And even a universal favorite and unquestionably "great" musical like Guys & Dolls doesn't have much in the way of dancing, outside of the Hot Box Club numbers. Sure there is musical staging, but it's not dancing the way there is in Carousel or Fiddler or Chicago or Chorus Line or Spider Woman or West Side Story. | |
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| re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:31 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" - Chazwaza 01:25 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| Guys and Dolls has a good deal of dance. In addition to the Hot Box numbers, there's the opening "Runyonland" mix of dance and pantomime, there's the Havana sequence, which if done well will bring down the house, and the crap-shooters' ballet. It's not as much as West Side Story or On the Town or Oklahoma! but it's a pretty good amount. | |
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| re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 06:42 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" - AlanScott 06:31 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| I guess my My Fair Lady example post was probably more apt... besides Doolittle's two song, there's very little dance that wouldn't be part of the scene as it plays out. So unlike those other dance-heavy shows we've mentioned, dancing is not integral to the way things are expressed in MFL as a musical. At least that I recall. | |
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| re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:52 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" - Chazwaza 06:42 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| Indeed, "Get Me to the Church on Time" perhaps kind of goes on too long in the full original arrangement. When Harrison did that revival, he insisted it be cut way down as friends of his had told him it was too long. But that was perhaps a mistake. The audience does kind of like a break there. Worth remembering is that MFL was conceived to have a major ballet in the first act, which got cut out of town. | |
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| re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 07:46 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" - AlanScott 06:52 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| I did not know that there was an intended ballet, and I'm very glad they cut it. | |
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| re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 08:18 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" - Chazwaza 07:46 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| You can read about it in some detail in Dominic McHugh's book on My Fair Lady (see linked review). The book is now available as a paperback (or will be shortly). | |
| Link | Loverly |
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| re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 01:54 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" - Chazwaza 01:25 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| In fact there are quite a few classic/great musicals that do not employ dance in a memorable or significant way. My Fair Lady is a great exception. Besides some light choreography for Alfred Doolittle's 2 songs, and the dancing that happens in the scene for "Rain In Spain", and the in scene dancing at the ball, the rest of the show is pretty dance less. | |
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| re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 11:03 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" - Chazwaza 07:24 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| In order to answer that, first, there would have to be an agreement on what the last great musical was. So for instance for those of us who would consider Spring Awakening greater than Hairspray, clearly it is the last great musical that also integrated choreography into its whole. | |
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| re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 11:11 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" - ryhog 11:03 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I would agree about Spring Awakening. Though it's certainly hard to compare two such different animals as Spring Awakening and Hairspray, both are great (I'd give the edge to SA personally), and SA was much more recent. Part of me didn't even think of it as having been much of a dance show. I know it won a Tony for it, and I love what Bill T. Jones did with the movement, but I don't even know if I'd say there has been any show that was a great original musical that really had exceptional dancing all the way through it since Kiss of the Spider Woman. At least in the sense that JayBee must have meant it. (For the record I know there was plenty of dancing in Hairspray but I don't remember any of it). | |
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| re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 11:23 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" - Chazwaza 11:11 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I don't think you have to consider SA "a dance show" to recognize that dance is absolutely integral to the show (and thus, as I understand it, Ashley's point). I also doubt that many people who saw SA have forgotten Jones's choreography, whether they liked it or not (and I am well aware there are those here how don't). | |
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| re: off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 08:01 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | off the criteria of "every element of musical theater" - Chazwaza 07:24 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Given that your list is in chronological order, I do have to say Hairspray would answer that definition for me. Though I certainly feel that all 5 of those shows fit the bill, and should all be recognized for their "greatness" (whatever we define that as). I think it's a shame that JayBee will surely disagree. But yes, that's his prerogative...;-) | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 03:34 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I seem to think that there was only one hit song from that show - something about clowns. How in hell can you have a great musical without a whole bunch of hit songs? ;-) | |
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| poppycock | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 02:59 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I'm sorry you feel that way but I think you're absolutely wrong. First of all, SWEENEY TODD opened after Night Music. To say nothing of the other great musicals that have opened since 1973 (like Chicago, Annie, Pacific Overtures, A Chorus Line which has a great score even if it's not quite at the level of Sondheim, and On the Twentieth Century). Are you defining a "great musical" as a romantic musical comedy? Besides the 70s, do you think the 80s were ONLY populated by the British invasion (which includes Phantom, Evita, Les Miz, etc, some of which are good)? That decade also gave us Sunday in the Park, Into the Woods, Nine, Little Shop of Horrors, Dreamgirls, Drood, La Cage. The 90s gave us Once On This Island, Violet, Floyd Collins, City of Angels, The Secret Garden, Falsettos, Kiss of the Spider Woman, Assassins, Parade, Rent, Titanic, The Life, and Ragtime. The 00s gave us The Producers, The Wild Party, Urinetown, Hairspray, Avenue Q, Caroline or Change, Taboo, The Light in the Piazza, Grey Gardens, Spring Awakening, Bernarda Alba, Next to Normal, Billy Elliot. The 10s so far have given us Book of Mormon, Scottsboro Boys, Matilda, A Christmas Story... Yes, of course, many of these are debatably not "great" in the sense that I think you mean, but I think quite a few of them are. It seems pointless to claim that not ONE "great musical" has opened in NYC since 1973 with A Little Night Music (which I admit is a GREAT musical, far better than most on the list, but not necessarily *greater* than a few others in my opinion). | |
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| Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | robbyho 02:43 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I win. | |
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| re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 09:45 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - robbyho 02:43 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Show Boat? That insipid knockoff of The Black Crook? | |
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| re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 05:47 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - robbyho 02:43 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Foe me, it's Naughty Marietta. Emma Trentini. Wow! | |
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| re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | JayBee 03:16 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - robbyho 02:43 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Hmmm. You could be right. Although there is South Pacific, but I didn't see those original productions, so I cannot judge - like many on this board who NEVER SAW the original Night Music production cannot pass judgement. | |
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| re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:41 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - JayBee 03:16 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Cannot pass judgment on what? Alan Who saw the original production of A Little Night Music three times | |
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| re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 04:23 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - JayBee 03:16 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Dear JayBee, it seems you weren't clear in your original post as to whether you were referencing the shows as written or the original productions, which are obviously not the same thing. Your first paragraph makes it sound like you're referring to the original productions, but the rest of the post seems like you're referring to the shows themselves -- i.e., book, music and lyrics. | |
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| re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 04:48 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - Michael_Portantiere 04:23 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| To say nothing of the fact that, to quote a great play, "I have such doubt" that JayBee has seen the original production of every major contender for "great musical" status in NYC since 1973. | |
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| re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | JayBee 04:48 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - Michael_Portantiere 04:23 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Dear Michael, Sorry for the confusion, but I am referring to the original production -and all its elements. As much as I love Night Music, the recent revival did not knock me out at all, but what Hal Prince put together was truly glorious. That original production - in every department - has yet to be beat . And for those who have been wondering ... I've seen hundreds and hundreds of shows in the last forty years, probably the original production of every musical mentioned on this thread, and I enjoyed many of them a great deal. In fact, some I have revisited because I enjoyed them so much, but none has had everything come together as brilliantly as Night Music did in 1973. | |
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| re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 11:28 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - JayBee 04:48 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| >>I've seen hundreds and hundreds of shows in the last forty years, probably the original production of every musical mentioned on this thread, neither of these address your position. you've either seen every musical since 1973 - your own criteria for evaluating and ranking - or you haven't. "hundreds" and "probably" don't cut it, again using your own criteria. criteria i heartily agree with by the way. i don't understand the concept of, "ok, i haven't seen X but i know it pales in comparison to Y." and it's so much worse when stated either authoritatively (if one is feeling generous) or pompously (if one is not) "X matters and nothing that follows does. i know this because i saw X." | |
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| re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | EvFoDr 04:59 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - JayBee 04:48 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I'm curious what you would list as runners up. Could it be there is something specific about the sensibility of A Little Night Music and your tastes that make it seem so much greater to you than other (great) musicals that have come after it? | |
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| re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 04:49 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - JayBee 04:48 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| What you say here is a lot easier to swallow and more positive than the rabble-rousing judgmental post that was the original in this thread. | |
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| re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 05:32 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - Chazwaza 04:49 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| What you say here is a lot easier to swallow and more positive than the rabble-rousing judgmental post that was the original in this thread. Agreed 100%. It's all in how it's said. ;-) | |
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| re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 03:38 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - JayBee 03:16 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| They certainly CAN "pass judgement" (why such a harsh image of thinking things?) if they haven't seen the original production live. For the same reason I don't think it's ok to dismiss Sweeney Todd because of your opinion of it's original production, you cannot judge ALNM positively because of it's original production and then tell other who've seen the show and know the material that they couldn't possibly know what it was like seeing the brilliant original production. The show must be judged as a play, it must be able to hold up to other productions, and CD listenings and script readings. Both ALNM and Sweeney Todd pass those tests and remain wonderful, even perfect musicals. And yet I know there are plenty who were bored by ALNM or turned off by Sweeney. | |
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| re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 02:46 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - robbyho 02:43 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| well played. | |
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| I had a friend who was taken to the '32 revival | |
| Posted by: | thtrgoer 03:02 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Nothing has worked for me since the original SHOW BOAT - enoch10 02:46 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| He was about 8, but I don't think he remembered much about it. Maybe some of you knew this same Paul McGuire. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | mermaniac 01:31 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| CITY OF ANGELS !!! | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Greg_M 01:04 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| "Annie" "Sweeney Todd" "A Chorus Line" and "Chicago" were all great musicals and then came after "A Little Night Music" The last revival of "A Chorus Line" was awful so you can't judge the show based on that. I feel "Ragtime" was a great show that got lost in financial scandal. "Hairspray" is also a classic eleven years after it opened. But the 80's and 90's were pretty weak | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 03:48 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - Greg_M 01:04 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| The 80s and 90s are not weak compared to the 70s after 1973... which only gave us Sweeney Todd, Annie, A Chorus Line and Chicago (and I'd say Pacific Overtures) as great musicals. It's up to your taste which great musicals you prefer... from the 80s, the ones I consider great include: Sunday in the Park with George (a show I'd say is easily in the top 3-5 best ever written) Into the Woods Nine Little Shop of Horrors And also good, which some would call great: Dreamgirls The Mystery of Edwin Drood La Cage Aux Folles Merrily We Roll Along Les Miserables Evita Phantom of the Opera I'd say any decade that gave us at least one of the most brilliant musical ever written is still a good one. Some of the great musicals of the 90s: Once On This Island Violet Floyd Collins City of Angels The Secret Garden Falsettos Kiss of the Spider Woman Assassins Parade Rent Titanic The Life Ragtime So it really depends on who you ask... but I definitely do not think the 80s and 90s were as weak as many like to think. There were quite a few genuinely wonderful and excellent musicals, and a few great and/or genius musicals that I'd put against the greats of any other decade. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 12:58 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| As much as A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC is a wonderful show, it is hardly the last great musical - it's not even the last great Sondheim musical (SWEENEY TODD is far superior in my book.) For me, the original NINE had everything that A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC had...plus sex appeal which is lacking in ALNM. (Anita Morris alone could send in the clowns for ol' Desiree.) Taking nothing away from A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC, which is indeed a splendid show, there were certainly other great shows since 1973. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 03:49 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - perfectlyfrank 12:58 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I love NINE, and I think it's a great musical by any definition. But I think ALNM did everything it was doing as well as could ever be done. Not a bad lyric or song in the batch. I don't think I can say the same of NINE which has some bad lyrics (though not many by 80s standards) and less than amazing songs here and there. But that's my opinion. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 05:06 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - Chazwaza 03:49 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| It's hard to compare any score to a Sondheim score, that's true. But for overall entertainment, I'll take the original NINE, which for me was the greatest Broadway musical production I have ever seen. While ALNM may have had brilliant lyrics to be sure, the choreography in NINE was extraordinary. Also, for me, NINE was far more emotional and heartbreaking but also funnier and more exuberant. As fun as "A Weekend in the Country" may be, it pales to the sheer joy of "Be Italian" or "Folies Bergeres". "The Miller's Son" may be clever but it doesn't come close to the sexiness of "A Call from the Vatican" (especially as performed by Anita Morris). But my point is not to argue which musical is better - everyone has their own personal reasons for why one show or another resonates with them - but rather I wanted to counter the original post which stated there were no great musicals written after 1973's ALNM. For me, there are many and NINE is but one example of a great show - particularly the original, perfect Tommy Tune production. And I could also add that 4 musicals after 1973 won the Pulitzer Prize for Drama. So, to say that no great musicals were written after ALNM just seems silly to me. We all have our personal preferences and ALNM is certainly a great musical. But great is in the eye of the beholder. :-) | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 06:08 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - perfectlyfrank 05:06 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| This is definitely for the "production" files rather than judging the musical on its own. I didn't see the original Nine, though I know well of its legend. And I agree about the excitement and emotion of the material and, I can only imagine, that staging. But "A Call From the Vatican", for example, is one of the songs I'd put in the "not really great" category... serviceable, for sure, and with the Anita Morris performance and the Tune choreography, I'm sure it was incredible. But the song on it's own doesn't do much for me, and didn't do that much for me in the revival despite the inventive staging. I find "The Miller's Son" a MUCH more rousing and climactic song. I understand also what you mean about "A Weekend in the Country" vs "Be Italian" or "Folies Bergeres" but I often get caught on lyrics like "Be Italian, you rapscallion." It is a totally different kind of show though, and it's very hard to compare. The mood, the intention, everything is different between the two shows. Scandinavian repression vs. Italian lust. People finding each other vs one man finding himself. So I don't fault ALNM for not having those kinds of big, splashy, rousing production numbers (or the overtly sexy ones) like Nine because they just don't belong in that story. The only reason I compare them in terms of quality is that I can't pick out anything I have issues with or find to be second rate amongst the first-rate-ness of the rest of the show in ALNM, and I can find a couple of things in Nine. So they are still in the same tier of great musicals, but if I'm ranking them on the perfection of their written material, I think ALNM is going to be ranked higher. But in terms of original productions, you couldn't have found two shows that were served better by all the elements of their original productions. I would offer up some others as well, of course, but if we're talking ALNM and NINE, both seem to have been utterly perfect productions of arguably/close-to perfect musicals. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 02:05 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - Chazwaza 06:08 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I totally agree with what you're saying. That's my point. BOTH shows were well served by their productions. I tend to prefer NINE (both production and material - and score, though I will admit that Sondheim is the stronger, more exacting lyricist). I like both shows and they and shows like them that keep me going back to the theatre. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 10:21 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - Chazwaza 06:08 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I find "The Miller's Son" a MUCH more rousing and climactic song. I'm afraid we have nothing to talk about, then. I hate "The Miller's Son" with every fiber of my being and I grit my teeth until that boring, undeveloped character of Petra is done with her caterwauling so the show can continue. This song is a glaring example of "but the girl can sing, so we have to write a song for her." As obligatory numbers go, it's less motivated and definitely less well crafted than "It's Nicer in Nice." | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 12:02 am EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - LegitOnce 10:21 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| This song is a glaring example of "but the girl can sing, so we have to write a song for her." You do realize that's factually wrong. Sondheim wrote the song, then they discovered the original Petra couldn't sing it well enough - and she was fired, and replaced by D'Jamin Bartlett. It would seem that Sondheim (and Prince, assumedly) felt the song was too important at that point. You have a right to hate the song (as unfortunate as that is), but don't make false statements about its composition, please. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 12:32 am EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - Chromolume 12:02 am EDT 03/14/14 |
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| Thank you! And honestly, who writes "The Miller's Son" when they are trying to shoehorn in a showcase for an actor they discovered could really sing? | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 10:55 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - LegitOnce 10:21 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I'm not sure what "It's Nicer in Nice" has to do with it. I think "The Miller's Son" is a fantastic song and it's always thrilling to hear it performed. I also think it fits well into the show and its themes and gives a needed break at the right time. I don't dislike "A Call From the Vatican" but like I've explained, as a song it leaves something to be desired... which is, if you're lucky, made up in the performance and staging. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | TXTyler 12:34 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| That's a bold opinion, but good to you for voicing it. You know what they say about opinions. Opinions are like arses; they all stink and mine is better than yours. :) I agree that ALNM is quite perfect in every way, but expecting something of the like to come along every few years would be a rough wait. Instead I concentrate on all the wonderful (even imperfect) pieces that move me in one way or another. Looking through that lense, I'd say there have been some pretty darn great musicals on and off Broadway in the last forty years. I'd list them, but after all, they're just my opinion. I hope another musical comes along soon that will touch you in the manner that ALNM has. Sometimes you see a show that strikes you as unforgettable, and you can't shake it. Glad you've had that joy... even if it was decades ago. Ty | |
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| THANK YOU | |
| Posted by: | JayBee 12:31 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| - to all who posted below. You have proven my thesis. | |
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| re: THANK YOU | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 03:23 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | THANK YOU - JayBee 12:31 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| And so the new parlor game you would have us play is Guess the Thesis. I'll go first: if you post something imbecilic on the internet, a certain percentage of people will take it seriously. | |
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| Well... | |
| Posted by: | mattyp4 02:04 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | THANK YOU - JayBee 12:31 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I think A Little Night Music is terribly boring. So I just disproved your thesis. | |
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| re: Well... | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 03:59 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | Well... - mattyp4 02:04 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I like "A Little Night Music". Great? Not at all. One hit song, the rest....pleasant enough. IMHO.... | |
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| re: THANK YOU | |
| Posted by: | Ann 12:53 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | THANK YOU - JayBee 12:31 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Opinions can't be proven - enjoy your own and respect others'. | |
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| Good call, JayBee | |
| Posted by: | Paul_Gordon 12:17 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| While I think there have been other great musicals since "A Little Night Music" opened on B'way -- I do agree that it is a perfect musical. The score and book are flawless IMHO. I was only able to see "the tour" of the B'way show and not the original production, but to my young eyes and ears, the show was a revelation and still is. Accessing musicals we love is all about our own personal taste, and for me, "A Little Night Music" (and specifically Hal Prince's production) will always be a masterpiece. | |
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| re: Good call, JayBee | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 03:35 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | Good call, JayBee - Paul_Gordon 12:17 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I agree that it's a flawless musical... but, to my chagrin, not everyone does. Not everyone agrees that the book is flawless or that the musical as a whole is perfect. I think they're wrong, but they certainly exist and they existed when the show opened and the exist now, and I don't just mean a few people. So even though I think it's perfect, and one of the great musicals ever written, I don't think it's unanimously agreed upon that it's "perfect" or the last great or flawless or perfect show to open in NYC. Many, myself included, would call Sweeney Todd perfect and flawless. I might even call Chicago flawless. Personally, I'd call Sunday in the Park flawless and perfect. Maybe would say it about Once On This Island, maybe Nine, maybe Dreamgirls, maybe Assassins, maybe Les Miz, maybe Hairspray. I'd also say it about Caroline or Change. It's hard to find a show everyone agrees is perfect. I'd think you'd find no one arguing about West Side Story, or on the other side, The Music Man. Yet there are haters of both shows. The King and I? My Fair Lady? Fiddler? Cabaret? Haters. Perhaps the only show I've never heard a bad word about was Guys & Dolls and I'm sure there are people that find it shallow or not funny. | |
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| Taste | |
| Posted by: | Paul_Gordon 10:42 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Good call, JayBee - Chazwaza 03:35 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Yes, it all comes down to personal taste in the end, as there indeed is no actual definition of a perfect or flawless musical. For me, A LIttle Night Music is exquisitely written (and my favorite Hugh Wheeler book, even more so than Sweeney), and has taught me personally (for better or for worse) more about the art of writing musicals than any other show. But I also agree that Guys and Dolls is probably the most universally "agreed upon" great musical. | |
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| re: Good call, JayBee | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 09:25 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Good call, JayBee - Chazwaza 03:35 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| The non-singing opening of "Guys and Dolls" goes on too long. Start the F'ing "Fugue for Tinhorns" already! :) | |
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| re: Good call, JayBee | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 11:32 am EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Good call, JayBee - PlayWiz 09:25 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| "The non-singing opening of 'Guys and Dolls" goes on too long.'" Not when it's staged and choreographed by Michael Kidd, it doesn't! See the movie. | |
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| re: Good call, JayBee | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 08:42 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Good call, JayBee - Michael_Portantiere 11:32 am EDT 03/14/14 |
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| Indeed. I think the opening sequence of Guys And Dolls is pretty cool. Overture, Runyonland, "Fugue For Tinhorns," "Follow The Fold" - all without a single break in the music, and all before one single line of dialogue. The original Runyonland music (not the reinvented, ultra-short version for the 1992 revival) is also clever in the way it helps introduce some of the musical themes, including "Fugue For Tinhorns" (so that by the time they sing it, the tune has already been planted in your head). PlayWiz - would you criticise the Prologue from West Side Story in the same way? I thought not, lol. No, I'm not trying to say "Runyonland" is up to the same kind of musical artistry - but I do think Runyonland deserves its due. | |
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| re: Good call, JayBee | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 11:16 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Good call, JayBee - Chromolume 08:42 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| In the film, Kidd's choreography is great, thought the artificial sets bother me, though they are used whenever characters are on the street throughout the film which detracts from the film. I've seen productions without the Kidd choreography where sometimes it seems to go on too long. I realize the stage directions are in the script for a lot of the action, but not many choreographers come up to Kidd's artistry. Also saw a wonderful production by the National Theatre in London which during the Overture had the credits of the cast in lights given like a movie, which was rather clever. The rest of the staging very well done, and Bob Hoskins and Julie McKenzie were superb. No problemo for WSS. | |
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| re: Good call, JayBee | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 04:44 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Good call, JayBee - Chazwaza 03:35 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Very well put, Chazwaza. It's well worth noting that a show can be "great" without being "perfect," aside from the fact that, obviously, definitions of "greatness" and "perfection" vary. MY FAIR LADY is unquestionably a great show, but it's far from perfect (all those grammatical errors in the lyrics, and several words and expressions that people in England would never use). WEST SIDE STORY is a masterpiece, but some of Laurents' dialogue is not very good, even if his book is great overall. And so on. I do agree with you that I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything critical about GUYS AND DOLLS, and that show is pretty much universally regarded as great. | |
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| re: Good call, JayBee | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 09:30 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Good call, JayBee - Michael_Portantiere 04:44 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Nathan Detroit needs another song in the Broadway version. Plus the guy on the OCR singing "More I Cannot Wish You" might have been effective on stage, but I nearly always used to bypass it on my LP. So there! (Plus my comment above about the opening). Otherwise, I love it. | |
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| re: Good call, JayBee | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 10:43 am EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Good call, JayBee - PlayWiz 09:30 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| As I'm sure you know, one reason why Nathan sings so little in the show is that Sam Levene, the original Nathan, could barely sing at all. If you just hand some of the singing lines in "The Oldest Established" and the title song to Nathan, I think that plus "Sue Me" gives him an appropriate amount to sing for that character, since he's obviously there much more for comedy than for beautiful singing. | |
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| re: Good call, JayBee | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 04:52 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Good call, JayBee - Michael_Portantiere 04:44 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| However Guys & Dolls hardly identified as a musical "for adults" specifically, the way ALNM is. If JayBee is looking for a musical that is both perfect and for adults, it's going to be hard. But I still say Sweeney Todd is as perfect as ALNM (and most would say it's far better) and is very much for adults specifically. | |
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| re: Good call, JayBee | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 04:55 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Good call, JayBee - Chazwaza 04:52 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I have a hard time figuring out what exactly a musical "for adults" means, but I certainly agree with you that SWEENEY is as great a show in its own way as ALNM, if not even greater. | |
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| re: Good call, JayBee | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 04:59 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Good call, JayBee - Michael_Portantiere 04:55 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I guess it means dealing with specifically adult themes and situations... meaning not things people under 16 could even understand, or subjects that wouldn't be appropriate for people under 16. Family-friendly shows like Guys & Dolls and The Music Man probably do not qualify. Though they're certainly more "for adults" than Annie, for example. They aren't for kids but they can be enjoy by kids. Into the Woods I think is for adults, but can certainly be enjoyed on many important levels by kids. It's one of the few shows that I think successfully lives in both those worlds. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | singleticket 11:59 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| "Book of Mormon" and before that "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" but I couldn't find an online list of Broadway musicals by the year so there might be more that I'd choose. | |
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| HAIRSPRAY | |
| Posted by: | EvFoDr 11:52 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| One could assemble a larger list, but I'll go with my instantaneous gut. Hairspray. Sure, "great" is subjective, but I've never spoken to anyone who doesn't like this musical in its original stage incarnation. Praised by critics, embraced by audiences, a financial/commercial success, winner of multiple awards and honors. Of course individuals can still hold the opinion that it's not a great show, but all these combined levels of success say SOMETHING about its quality I think. | |
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| re: HAIRSPRAY | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 04:05 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | HAIRSPRAY - EvFoDr 11:52 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Absolutely adore "Hairspray". I feel the show is GREAT considering I walked in the theater and started smiling as soon as the curtain rose and didn't stop until after the curtain call. | |
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| re: HAIRSPRAY | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 03:28 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | HAIRSPRAY - EvFoDr 11:52 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I guess JayBee might object to it because it's not quite as adult as ALNM, which is certainly true. Doesn't make it not a great musical. I also don't think it's at the level of ALNM though I do love it, but I'd still describe it as a "great" musical. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 10:02 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| This is one of those posts that reminds us that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and that there is no accounting for taste. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | dixchot 10:46 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - ryhog 10:02 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| For me, it's Spring Awakening- audacious, original and memorable with a stunning score, electric choreography, and beautifully designed. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 10:56 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - dixchot 10:46 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I won't disagree there. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 11:08 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - Chazwaza 10:56 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| count me in on that, as you'll see in a response to you that's further up | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 02:11 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - ryhog 10:02 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| just not necessarily in that order. | |
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| The original post could have been a featured entry in the "How to Bait Ryhog" manual | |
| Posted by: | BrianJ 10:30 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - ryhog 10:02 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I'm actually surprised it only elicited one sentence of reaction! (Jaybee, this is a joke, I'm not implying that the post was anything other than your true feelings, which you're totally entitled to.) My primary reaction is that we should BE so lucky as to consistently get scores as "weakish" as A CHORUS LINE's these days. | |
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| re: You gotta be kiddin' | |
| Posted by: | NewtonUK 09:40 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| These are just SOME of the extraordinary shows that have opened since A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC A CHORUS LINE ANNIE BILLY ELLIOTT BIG RIVER CHICAGO CITY OF ANGELS CRAZY FOR YOU DREAMGIRLS EVITA HAIRSPRAY INTO THE WOODS LA CAGE LES MIZ MERRILY WE ROLL ALONG MISS SAIGON NEXT TO NORMAL RAGTIME RENT SPRING AWAKENING SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA PHANTOM | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | tgknyc 09:24 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Well, in addition to some of the shows mentioned in other responses, Sweeney Todd certainly would fall into your description "A show for adults written by adults". It is considered by many to be one of the greatest created by Mr. Sondheim. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 10:39 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - tgknyc 09:24 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Thank you, tgknyc. It's surprising that someone who cites A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC as "the last great musical to open on Broadway" would either underrate or apparently forget about SWEENEY TODD, one of Sondheim's most popular shows and generally regarded as a masterpiece. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | JayBee 11:45 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - Michael_Portantiere 10:39 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Did not forget Sweeney Todd, which is terrific, but its original production was swallowed up in the wrong theater and by an unnecessarily busy bloated design. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 11:46 am EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 11:45 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I'm glad you consider Sweeney Todd to be "terrific", but MANY people (myself included, very much so) would disagree with you about the original production (to be totally fair I wasn't alive to see it live but I got permission to view a legally recorded (and not distributed) video of the original production at the Library of the Performing Arts in NYC, the video of the tour with Lansbury and Hearn, which is available commercials and legally, about a hundred times, i've seen productions which recreated the original staging and sets (ex: NY Opera with Elaine Paige directed by Hal Prince based on his original production), and I've read extensively about the production). But as Michael said, if you're talking about the last great musical, a musical lives beyond it's original production as a piece of material. The Music Man is a show that very few people alive who are younger than 65 saw in it's original production and remember it, and yet it remembered by all as a great musical, which is evident in the writing. As is the case with Sweeney, no matter how you felt about the original production. It's lucky for you that you were alive and in nyc to see all the potential shows that could be the last great musical (I'd be curious to know if you actually saw most of the shows you dismiss for the last 39 years in their original nyc productions)... but not everyone was, so that cannot be the way the lasting quality or "greatness" of a show is judged. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 05:42 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 11:45 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Even if you feel the original production was misguided, if you think the piece is terrific, might it not count as a great musical? I'm among those who completely disagree with your assessment of the production. Loved the design, the direction and the performances, particularly those of Cariou, Lansbury, Jennings and Louise, all of whom remain unequaled in my experience of many subsequent performers in those roles. Would I have liked it to have played in a somewhat smaller theatre? Perhaps, but I loved the overpowering design and the way the size of the set dwarfed the characters. That could not have been achieved in a smaller theatre, and I think the tradeoff was worth it for what was one of the most emotionally shattering productions I've ever seen. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | JohnPopa 03:53 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - AlanScott 05:42 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Obviously, I'm probably misremembering but I always thought you liked Loudon more than Lansbury - or was it just that you specifically enjoyed Loudon as well? | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:41 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - JohnPopa 03:53 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
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| If Loudon's entire performance had been as good as the best parts of her performance, she would have been magnificent. As it was, she was sort of all over the place: brilliant in some scenes, interestingly different from Lansbury in others, and actually not good in some places. Probably in some past pots I've emphasized the positive. Still, there have been lots of excellent Mrs. Lovetts. For me, as I've said so many times here that I'm sure people are tired of reading it, no one has approached Carioiu's excellence. Or Merle Louise's, for that matter. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 06:19 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - AlanScott 05:42 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I think Sweeney Todd is one of those shows that is NOT, by it's nature, intimate, but still somehow manages to be intimate within a large scale or overwhelming set. The show is written big, with big emotions and music, and broad characters. But then it still becomes personal and intimate. However sacrificing one to beef up the other is not, to me, the right idea. I think it works well either way, and of course works well in a smaller theater/set/staging concept... but I think the optimal version of it doesn't short change either side of the show. (and from what I've seen and can tell, I think Prince's production achieved that) | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Billhaven 04:41 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 11:45 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| My experience of the original Sweeney Todd was quite a different one. It was stunning and thrilling. All those magnificent performances and a one of a kind stage design that filled that theater like nothing had before. Maybe you had lousy seats. | |
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| SWEENEY TODD | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 05:03 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - Billhaven 04:41 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| By now, SWEENEY TODD has proven time and again that it can be done in all different sizes of production and still work beautifully. A mark of true greatness. That said, I never felt that the show in any way suffered from the scale of the original production. And any production that's large enough to use a full orchestra playing those incredibly beautiful and powerful original orchestrations by Tunick is, in my opinion, better in that respect than one that isn't and doesn't. | |
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| good seats | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 04:57 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - Billhaven 04:41 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Good seats vs bad seats can have such an enormous, unfortunate impact on how a show plays and comes off. I hated Next to Normal because I had a horrible seat (I liked it a lot more now). I loved Ragtime and I had perfect seats each time. I loved Billy Elliot with a great seat, and had a more difficult time than I might have with Matilda sitting in the mid-Mezz. I sat in the rear mezz for Venus in Fur and found myself removed from it and analyzing everything. I had an absolutely perfect close-up seat for Journey's End and it became one of the most effecting theater experiences of my life... other friends had further back seats and they found it boring and poorly lit. Some shows require you to be up close, some benefit from seeing everything at once, some need something in between. Most shows and their productions are best viewed from the front of the center orchestra in the center... a little distance to take it all in, but still quite close. Or from the very front of the Mezz, center. If you're not there for any given show, your experience can be quite different depending on what seat you have. | |
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| re: good seats | |
| Posted by: | EvFoDr 05:01 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | good seats - Chazwaza 04:57 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I'm glad you brought that up. I was thinking we are all talking as if we've had the same experience--even if we've seen the same cast of the same incarnation of a show, we really haven't if some have crappy seats. Also, some seats are in acoustic dead zones and might have worse sound. | |
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| re: good seats | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 06:15 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: good seats - EvFoDr 05:01 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Not to mention what we bought with us to our seats on those days. I saw The Weir expecting to love it... I was exhausted that day, and not the most fast-paced show, it put me to sleep in 30-45 minutes. Or maybe I should say it help facilitate a nap, or it did not keep me awake. Is it that play, which is slow by the nature of what kind of play it is, have the responsibility to keep a tired audience member awake, or the blame for putting them to sleep? I know many other viewers had a much better experience than me. It's not fair to say the play put me to sleep, even though I know if I'd been seeing Hairspray that day I would have not fallen asleep. For the recent Twelfth Night... I was seated in an incredible lower level on stage seat. I couldn't have had a better experience if I'd forced myself because I paid $140 (I paid $27). Then I saw Richard III for the same price, but standing at the back of the orchestra (which I've done many times, even for Long Days Journey). Even though I know Twelfth Night is unanimously agreed was the better and more enjoyable play and performance of the two, I can help but assume had I had the same seat as Twlefth Night I'd have had a better experience at Richard III than I did (I still liked it quite a lot). And that brings up another point, which is I honestly think that some people (less so on this board I assume), are much more receptive to any show being good if they paid a lot of money for it... I always say people today with give a standing ovation to a janitor sweeping the floor if they paid $150 to see it. And on the flip side of that, some people are much harsher critics, expecting that it "better be f*cking brilliant for this much money". | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 12:01 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 11:45 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Even if that's true -- and I completely disagree -- I thought we were discussing the quality of the writing of the shows themselves, not necessarily the quality of the original productions in terms of direction, casting, etc. Sorry if I misunderstood. | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | jimn 09:09 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I don't think that revival of "A Chorus Line" can attest to much. It was poorly cast and though there was strong technique all across the stage, there was no life and no heart. It was paint-by-numbers theater. | |
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| It lasted for 759 performances | |
| Posted by: | dramedy 10:10 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The last great musical to open on Broadway - jimn 09:09 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Almost two years and recouped. It was 16 years between productions so that it should have lasted longer, but it was still a successful revival. | |
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| re: It lasted for 759 performances | |
| Posted by: | jimn 11:38 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | It lasted for 759 performances - dramedy 10:10 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I agree that it was successful monetarily, but it just wasn't a very good production of a fantastic show. It looked and sounded good but it lacked any spirit. | |
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| It does seem like standard revivals tend to fail | |
| Posted by: | dramedy 01:24 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: It lasted for 759 performances - jimn 11:38 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| The longest revivals are Chicago and cabaret, completely restaged. It will be interesting if the new version of les Miz works since the previous revival didn't. I believe pippin with the acrobatics and the tent is enough difference from the original. And the Doyle productions of Sweeney Todd and company worked. You gotta have a gimmick and a faithful reproduction isn't a good gimmick. | |
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| re: It lasted for 759 performances | |
| Posted by: | bradmurf 11:45 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: It lasted for 759 performances - jimn 11:38 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| It was plastic. Especially, I think, if you saw the original. | |
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| re: It lasted for 759 performances | |
| Posted by: | Zelgo 12:06 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: It lasted for 759 performances - bradmurf 11:45 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Yes, I saw it and couldn't imagine, for the life of me, how the previous production could have become the longest running Bway show in history for its time. | |
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| REALLY? | |
| Posted by: | jero 10:52 am EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: It lasted for 759 performances - Zelgo 12:06 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Honesty, sweat, grit, pure talent by all involved, subject matter not frequently discussed in public,a big heart, pathos, a little something somewhere that even people not in theater can relate to..I can | |
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| re: The last great musical to open on Broadway | |
| Posted by: | tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 08:43 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Well, here goes the start of a flame war. "Great" is a hard word. Let me just mention a few that I thought were very good. I thought that "Billy Elliot" was a beautifully crafted musical, with varied songs integrated to the story, and a daring use of children--that is, for more than just, "Oh, they're so cute!" That the climax for the show was a dance by a child...daring. I also found it moving. For it's unusual music and structure and visual story telling, I thought "Once" was very good. I just saw it again last night in London and was moved again by it. "Dreamgirls" took my breath away, and not just because of Jennifer Holiday's performance. "Sunday in the Park with George" grows on me every time I see it again. Funny, but the parts I find compelling change with every production. "Falsettos" was far from perfect but that doesn't mean it wasn't very good and new and exciting. Ditto for "Grey Gardens." And to speak again of craft, "The Book of Mormon" is extremely well crafted. I don't like the show. I'm afraid I'm too old to find "I've got maggots in my scrotum!" a funny line, worth repeating three times. And sometimes revivals can be eye-opening. I thought so with the Dowling revival of "Company," the (first) Roundabout revival of "Cabaret," and the revival of "Chicago." IMHO. Your mileage will definitely vary. | |
| Link | Stage Money |
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| Boy .... | |
| Posted by: | jdm 08:25 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | The last great musical to open on Broadway - JayBee 08:17 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I would so disagree. The production of A Chorus Line at Paper Mill last season was terrific, simply sensational. And one of my favorite musicals ever is Ragtime. So .... Jim | |
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| re: Boy .... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 02:21 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | Boy .... - jdm 08:25 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| i disagree with your disagreement. i hated the revival and the paper mill production, though i liked the paper mill the better of the two. here's the deal - you can't have a great ACL without a great cassie. the revival failed on almost every level. the paper mill revival had enough going for it that if was if not great then at least a successful revival until you got to "music and the mirror" and it all just went to hell. i'm all for waiting until we have another great female dancer, one actually able to pull off that number, if in fact that ever happens, before we have another revival of ACL. | |
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| I agree | |
| Posted by: | Kaoru 08:46 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | Boy .... - jdm 08:25 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Jim, Ragtime is my favorite musical too. The score, the set, direction, and the cast, everything was superb (I'm talking about the version that includes Houdini escape trick). That's the first (and the last) show I purchased another ticket immediately after I saw the show. | |
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| Ragtime | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 03:01 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | I agree - Kaoru 08:46 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| When I saw the original broadway production I was BLOWN AWAY. As I've said here before, I thought to myself "this is what it must have been like to see/hear Fiddler On the Roof for the first time on Broadway." I went back as soon as I could. And I thought the staging and sets of the original were totally in line with the scope of the piece, fitting and sensational. I am so glad I got to see Broadway shows before they were all created small or scaled down for revivals. | |
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| re: Ragtime | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 07:37 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | Ragtime - Chazwaza 03:01 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| This is not to say that with some distance and years that I think Ragtime is perfect. It's not. And I don't mean that in the way that everyone says every single musical "is great but flawed"... no, I don't think that about many shows. But I do think Ragtime is a show with a non-stop incredible first act, and a second act that is half incredible and half of it just doesn't live up to the greatness in the first act. | |
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| re: I agree | |
| Posted by: | lowwriter 11:22 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | I agree - Kaoru 08:46 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I love Ragtime but the only production that worked for me was the scaled down version at Papermill, directed by a fellow who did it in England. I found the Broadway production bombastic and hurt by that awful barn of the theater on 42nd Street. | |
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| re: I agree | |
| Posted by: | allineedisthegirl 04:46 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: I agree - lowwriter 11:22 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| I with you there. I was impressed but unmoved by the original production of Ragtime, which I saw several days after it opened, all original cast. Of course it didn't help that I was in the rear of the orchestra and felt like I was watching the show from Hoboken. Many years later I saw a production at Hofstra Univ. (on Long Island) (Hofstra USA or Grey Wig, I forget which), and I was blown away and reduced to tears. If I'd only had a better seat first time around! db | |
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| re: I agree | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 06:24 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | re: I agree - allineedisthegirl 04:46 pm EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Oh man... as someone who sat in the mid to front orchestra both times I saw the original, let me tell you, it really helped. I assume, I've never seen it from the back of a house that big. I think what I just said in reply to Alan about Sweeney applies in many ways to Ragtime too. It is a big show, written with big music and big emotion and relatively broad character who start out distanced, purposefully, from the audience. And the show gets more intimate, but besides that it's a show about people (it's also a show about history and about Ragtime as a time in and metaphor for that period in America), it is not really an intimate show. And I think the show works best when the physical production embraces and compliments the large scale of the work and story, while also allowing it to become intimate when the writing goes there. And from where I saw in that theater, it did both in the original production. But I can certainly understand having a different experience from much further away. However I will say those songs are built for the back of the house, so I don't know that being half-again as close to the singer would move you that much more. | |
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| re: I agree | |
| Posted by: | OldTheaterGuy 09:26 am EDT 03/13/14 |
| In reply to: | I agree - Kaoru 08:46 am EDT 03/13/14 |
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| Ragtime definitely is a great musical. Others I would classify that way include Nine, Grand Hotel, and, in its own way, The Producers. | |
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