| BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | BroadwayLouBlaze 05:14 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| So the reviews this morning are mostly dismissive shurgs, with plenty of quotes and a couple or three raves. Exactly what was to be expected. The producers knew this would happen so did several investors that I am know of. The one exception of course is Brantley's shameless, sadly self revealing, somewhat embarrassing(for him), overkill pan of the show. So, I recently realized that since working in this industry since 1974, I have seen literally EVERY new Broadway play and Musical as well as every Broadway play revival that has opened (including several shows that closed in previews)for the past 40 years. I have missed a total of 4 musical revivals. Not something I set out to do exactly....but thems the facts. To draw an even finer point... what that means is that I have seen such all time calamities as Late Nite Comic, Heartaches of a Pussycat, Senator Joe, Little Prince and the Aviator, Carrie, Almost an Eagle, Moose Murders, Into the Light, Rockabye Hamlet, 16oo Pennsylvania Avenue, the list goes. My point being I have seen the absolute worst that Broadway has offered since 1974. Those shows are the kind of Shows that elicit the kind reaction you see from Brantley in his review of Rocky. As bad as he wants Rocky to be....it just simply isn't in the league of the aforementioned shows. And the tone and temperament of his notice is exactly in line with the kind of reviews the shows I mentioned received. There is something deeply disingenuous about this review and for that I reference his opening remarks. He says that at 10:10 (when the fight begins) that the audience "wakes out of its couch potato stupor." Ok, as it happened, I was at the same performance as Brantley. Saw the man come in. Saw him take his seat. I know and he knows the audience was in anything but a stupor." I mean come on...he knows that. So, simply put, this is a lie. He is absolutely misreporting what was happening at the event he covered. Now I get what he is doing here. It means for this to be a somewhat figurative statement.... and yet he also what to imply something literal....that the audience was bored. And with that comment it is very clear to me that Brantley is not so much interested in reviewing what is on the stage of the Winter Garden as he is in hurting the shows chance at success. Why bother you ask? Well, this is where things get a little embarrassing. He is actually, I feel saying more about his position as the Chief New York Times critic than anything else. Hear isa show that comes in with "blockbuster potential." These tend to be big, expensive money printing machines that do not need clearance from the Times in order to succeed. Now, it is very likely that Brantley knows that the shows box office receipts during ROCKY'S preview period have shown that the musical may not be the sure fire hit many (not all but many)seem to feel it will become. Now I do not know for a fact that he has seen these numbers but it is certainly likely he has. Critics are not dummies and they absolutely are aware of the "buzz" on a show before they go in. Not saying always. But for something as high profile as ROCKY yeah they know before they go in what the "lay of the land" is so to speak. Look at the TITANIC reviews as point of fact. The show in early previews, hell even late in previews was pretty dreadful. This is a case where they knew what they, in theory, knew what they were going to say before they even set foot into the theater. So, I think TITANIC is a good case of prejudgement/overkill. At any rate, back to Brantley and his ROCKY review. The role of the Critic really has not changed that much since he became the NY Times first stringer. However, the influence and clout of his role in this industry has greatly dimished over the years. With the advent of social media, internet opportunities an the industry getting itself up to speed in the marketing game, the New York critics are of less importance then they when I first started working in 1974 as a publicist. The general game plan until, I don't know...the mid 90's was pretty straight forward. Take out an announcement ad. Full page for a musical, half page to full for a play, do a few dog and pony shows for the press, print your window cards, place a few ads, do a promo mailing, place NY Times ABC listings and then.....wait for the TIMES review. Now I am generalizing here but that, give or take was how the game was played. Not really that much different now Just more nuanced. The opportunities to capture your audience today are now endless. You can reach people in ways you never could. Broadway, though still on a major learning curve, is taking advantage of all the new media, etc. The days of a shows fate resting on a Time, Newsweek, Daily News, New York Post and (the mother of them all) NY Times review are simply no more. Today readership is down, critics are losing their jobs. And Brantley started just before this happened. It has been during his tenure that the role of the NY Times critic has gone from "the most important opinion" to "just what one guy thinks." Actually it is not quite that extreme. But I hope you get the point. Certainly, everyone wants a great review from the Times. That is certainly a big deal. However, it is no longer a deal breaker or maybe I should say, no longer a "show closer." No one wants to lose their power. It has to smart a little and with his ROCKY review Brantley makes it clear that he ain't goin' down without a fight. Maybe he can, if not destroy, certainly put a little hurt on the quote-unquote soon to be "blockbuster" at the Winter Garden. Maybe that fancy boxing show is not critic proof after all. And by God, Brantley says to himself "I don't like it! I am gonna pull out every lame reporter trick in the book. I just told your midddle- class demographic that the audience was bored" Well, OK Ben, calm down. there is just one little problem here. You are lying. That is just simply a lie. The way it is written, he using an old literal vs. figurative trick that lazy, hack writers and low rent lawyers use. So look, and I know this is getting rather long winded, i don't have a horse in this race. Personally, I happen to think that ROCKY is a pretty spectacular entertainment from beginning to end. Yep, its a musical and the score, with the exception of three numbers, is a very real liability here. But for me it is a classic David/Goliath story and a fine example of how to translate a film onto the stage. The story is well told with characters that I care about. How many musicals just simply do not know how to tell their story. How many musicals are populated by characters that you simply care nothing about. ROCKY actually has four characters that I truly connected with. The staging I found compelling, adventurous, inventive. So for me, (and again, the score is a real problem) ROCKY is solid piece of musical theater construction as well as a very moving, old fashioned, galvanizing entertainment. If you want to make a case against the show, fine with me. With that score, It is not hard to do. As I said earlier, the producers knew the critics were not going to go for it. ROCKY represents the very kind of a show, through its branding,ad dollars and basic entertainment value makes the critics opinion irrelevant. They hate that, of course. If the show was as bad as Brantley suggests, which would make them as bad as the shows I mentioned, the other reviewers would have been just as vitriolic. With the TRULY awful musicals that is always the case. The reviews do not range from bad to dissmissive shrugs and there are certainly no raves(Of course now someone is going to point out that Barnes of the Post liked CARRIE. To which I say, there is always someone gonna love ya.) So... I have gone on too long. I will wrap it up. Brantley hates ROCKY. Fine. Ok. But that bold faced lie right at the top, suggests that he is reacting, in part (notice i said, IN PART)to issues that do not have anything to do with what is on stage. He don't much matter any more. He was supposed to be king. He was supposed to rule the kingdom and someone took away the little prince's thrown. That can't feel good. | |
| reply to this message | | |
| RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | BroadwayLouBlaze 10:23 am EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - BroadwayLouBlaze 05:14 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| So I am thinking about my post about Brantley's ROCKY review. Now I have never poster before. Thought I would give it a shot. Told...actually laughed at and warned that if I say anything against someone hating the show, that I am spoiling the fun here. People will come after me. I will be called a shill or said to have some involvement in the show. They were right. Maybe I should have listened. But you know what...this is actually sort of fun. Anyway, in re-reading what I originally posted, I have to say that yeah...it sounds like I have something to do with the show. That I am too close. Well, though not involved with the show, I am perhaps too close to the industry.i have seen first hand, how brutally difficult it is to create, not to mention sustain a show on Broadway. So when Brantley said that the audience was in a couch potato stupor, I guess the proverbial straw broke. Clearly he was bored. For many that seems to be the case....certainly among critics. Now who in the world can ever say what an audience truly feels. You could certainly recognize the biased applause. Fans of the movie, friends of the cast and so on. Easy to spot. Also, if an audience is in a stupor you pretty much know it. Again,easy to spot. . He knows,I know, the audience there that night knows that was not the case. Also, He makes the audience comment in the most read part of any review. The first paragraphs (or the last sentence). He knows what he is doing. So....in my opinion, his opening remarks were designed to damage the financial prospects of the production. Another poster was right in saying that his review was a fair assessment. Now that I have calmed down I realize this. He did not like the show and except for the opening about the audience he makes a good case. But being at the same performance...The couch potato stupor stuff was just too much for me. Ok...I promise I will stop now. I will let it go. Time move on. I do actually have a life. Sorry if I dampened the hate feast. Best of luck to you all and thank you for spending so much time talking about Broadway, even if to trash it. I can totally see how one can become addicted to this. | |
| reply to this message | | |
| re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | Singapore/Fling 03:02 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - BroadwayLouBlaze 10:23 am EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| There is something to be said for calling out many of the posters on this site for writing in a way that often feels like - whether or not it is intentioned - rude and condescending. But doing so in a way that is equally rude and condescending accomplishes little. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| This would be a boring site if we only said positive things | |
| Posted by: | dramedy 12:19 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - BroadwayLouBlaze 10:23 am EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| About the shows we like. I think many posters here are honest and love some shows and hat e others. I've been consistent in my rocky view thati didn't care for it but acknowledge the people around me loved it. I really like bridges and that is going to flop. I liked mothers & sons also, but others haven't. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: This would be a boring site if we only said positive things | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 12:22 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | This would be a boring site if we only said positive things - dramedy 12:19 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| more to the point, do we really want reviewers (here or in the press) to sugar coat how they feel? Do we want that morning TV vibe? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 12:19 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - BroadwayLouBlaze 10:23 am EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| A few quick reactions to your "rethinking: 1. No one gets extra points for how "brutally difficult" it is. That goes with the territory. We also do not cast actors for roles in shows based on how tough the life of an actor is in New York. Laying off of criticism on that basis is an appeal to mediocrity. 2. Brantley does not "design" his reviews to "damage the financial prospects." Sorry, but notwithstanding your claimed "closeness" to the industry, that's just naive. Critics like and dislike, just like everyone else, and sometimes, just like the rest of us, they fucking hate something. This is one of those cases. 3. Judging "stupor" is an art form of its own. The chief critic of the Times is well aware that press agents have seeded the audience with enthusiastic (often too enthusiastic) people. But people who go to the theatre a couple hundred times a year know the difference in enthusiasm and stupor, observe whether the audience is checking out during stretches between exciting moments and remembering that, on Broadway, audiences are the opposite of tough-they applaud, they stand, they text-without regard to whether they end up loving a show. By all means root for a show if you are motivated to your heart's content. But you do yourself no favors when you attribute ulterior motives to others for expressing their feelings. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | BroadwayLouBlaze 03:19 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - ryhog 12:19 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| I was warned this was addictive. I feel foolish for even responding to this. But....guess I am hooked. But I really am going to try and stop after this. Okee dokee.....here goes, 1.not asking for points. Huh? Do I need points?Not sure where that comes from. But ok. Just clarifying that no ...not part of show...part of the industry. That seems to bother you in some way? 2."design" of review comment. Of course, I am not suggesting that critics sit around and ponder ways to hurt a shows financial status. But... And this will set you off for reason... I know a lot of these folks. Sat around at bars with them....had actual dialogue...and guess what...that is often what they do. Maybe it has nothing to do with the finance of the show but.....they say things for certain reasons. Sure mostly these guys are just writing what they think/feel. But...this is a real head turner, do you really not believe that they are are not aware of what they are saying....when they they say it, where in the review it appears. huh???? I am sorry...it simply happens all the time. I am sorry if you do not believe that. A good example is Brantley pan of ROCKY HORROR. The last sentence...an absolute swipe at Jordan Roth. Read it and maybe it will help u understand what I am saying about the couch potato stupor. WOW....though I doubt it. And yet AGAIN...you mention my being in the business. What is with that??? Ok...you need to call me naive. So that is supposed to sting???? i mean I am just talking about things I have seen happen. and lets see, you are telling me they did not..i guess. But twice you do the industry thing. I mean did someone fire you from this business. Do you want a career and don't have one? What the hell is going on here. Wow...forgot...I was told not to do that. If I am going to post something...I was warned..." Do not let them know you are in the business. They just can't stand it." This is trip. LOL!!! 3. Ok...babe.....u are just all over the place there. But let me try...the part about knowing the difference between enthusiasm and stupor. I completely agree. Guess who else knows the difference Ben Brantley. That's the problem I have with his opening statement. He knows even accounting for the plants in the audience, that they were not in a stupor. Oh and commenting on the audience reaction is not exactly "expressing your feelings" by the way. Nor does it have anything to do with the creation or execution of a shows book, score,set, costumes, lights, direction, etc. which is of course why a critic is at the theater to begin with. Oh tiger...come get me. Tell me what I don 't know. Oh oh oh....but more importantly, please, please , please, tell me what you know. LOL!!! I know this kind of nonsense goes on here. I just Can't believe I am wasting a Saturday afternoon doing this. Again...I really want to stop. But this is fun. We'll...but , I don't know Ryhog... Sorta sad. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | BroadwayLouBlaze 05:25 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - BroadwayLouBlaze 03:19 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| Okay..will not be sad. This whole thread has pretty much run itself into ground. Later. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 03:57 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - BroadwayLouBlaze 03:19 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| your post has a lot of "the lady doth protest too much" going on, but I'm just gonna ignore that. nothing in my first item had to do with any industry status. No clue where you got that idea. It had to do with your thinking that shows need leniency because of how "brutal" it is to get a show up. That's just an invitation to mediocrity. I have no idea if you are in the business or not-you said you were "close" whatever that means. You were the one who kept mentioning it. Lots of folks here are in the business, lots are not. I don't care if you are or not and dont think most people do. It's not about you, not about me. It is about ideas, opinions and facts. Are critics aware that their words can end up punishing a show (or helping it)? Sure. Do they sometimes really fucking hate some show (just like you or I do)? You bet. Do I think Brantley wrote what he wrote where he wrote it for the reason you suggested? Nope. I am not a fan of critics "reporting" on audiences and wish Brantley hadn't and didn't. I think (as someone else wrote) we all come away with different impressions of audience reactions. Do I think Brantley made his up for the reason you state? No. I saw a different performance, and my sense was that the audience's attention ebbed and flowed. I would not have called it a stupor, but we can all focus on what we want, and take away from it what we want. And when a show is a deadly dull as I found this one, until the eleventh hour, I think it is easy to sense that feeling around you. If, instead, it excited you, you might feel that energy more. Whatever you choose to do, have fun, and don't be sad. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 03:36 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - BroadwayLouBlaze 03:19 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| I know a lot of these folks. Sat around at bars with them....had actual dialogue...and guess what...that is often what they do. Maybe it has nothing to do with the finance of the show but.....they say things for certain reasons. You do realize you sound like you're drunk, don't you? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | BroadwayLouBlaze 03:41 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - LegitOnce 03:36 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| Lol. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 03:30 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - BroadwayLouBlaze 03:19 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| "Sorta sad" is right. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 10:27 am EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - BroadwayLouBlaze 10:23 am EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| "Now who in the world can ever say what an audience truly feels," he writes, going to to tell us what the audience truly felt. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 11:30 am EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - LegitOnce 10:27 am EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| "Now who in the world can ever say what an audience truly feels," he writes, going on to tell us what [he thinks] the audience truly felt. Exactly. BroadwayLouBlaze is trying to have it both ways. I don't buy it. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | BroadwayLouBlaze 03:29 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - Chromolume 11:30 am EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| Really????? What an audience truly feels and identifying what Certain pockets of enthusiasm are about is sorta two different things to me. But...hell, have at it. Yeah....I'm not buying any of this either.lol. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 03:58 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - BroadwayLouBlaze 03:29 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| These were the two oxymoronic statements LegitOnce and I were referring to - both in the same paragraph from your above post: Now who in the world can ever say what an audience truly feels. Also, if an audience is in a stupor you pretty much know it. Again,easy to spot. . He knows,I know, the audience there that night knows that was not the case. So, on one hand you admit it's not reall possible to say what an audience feels, but then you turn around and say what you thought the audience was feeling (or, at least, NOT feeling). Is there not a contradiction there? "He's right and he's right? How can they both be right?..." ;-) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST | |
| Posted by: | BroadwayLouBlaze 05:05 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: RETHINKING SOME OF MY ORIGINAL POST - Chromolume 03:58 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| Sorry....I mean no disrespect here but I think it's time to drop this. We are sort of running this into the ground. sorry if it seemed contradictory. Maybe i was trying to suggest a little something too nuanced and am just a bad writer. Clearly, i am not getting my point across or you have made a choice not to get it. Whatever the case may be....wish you well. Thanks. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 09:05 am EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - BroadwayLouBlaze 05:14 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| If Brantley is as disempowered as you claim, then why are you screaming so hysterically about what amounts to a mixed-to-negative review. Your whole point is that what he writes will not affect the box office, so what's the point of calling him a liar and suggesting that he has all sorts of nefarious hidden motives for trying to close down the show? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Brantley's review makes me WANT to see it and I love Ben Brantley as a critic. | |
| Posted by: | KingSpeed 02:41 am EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - BroadwayLouBlaze 05:14 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| All I keep hearing about is the final 20 minutes of the show and how amazing it is. Brantley confirmed that. I can't wait to see Rocky. It's rare that any 20 minutes of any theatre gets that strong of a review. I can't wait to see Rocky. Relax. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 01:21 am EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - BroadwayLouBlaze 05:14 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| his review isn't the pan you're claiming it is. nor is it off the mark from what most everyone else has written. nothing about it comes off sounding like a hatchet job to me. he found most of it boring, which as others have pointed out, seems to be a pretty consistent opinion. your response doesn't come off as someone convinced brantley's power is insignificant. there is nothing about his review that indicates he has anywhere near the kind of investment in the success or failure of ROCKY you do. i'm not entirely clear exactly what nefarious plans you're trying to attribute to him. how exactly would "putting a hurt" on a blockbuster (that- if i'm reading you correctly -even you concede from the initial sales doesn't appear to be a blockbuster at all) benefit him? what exactly is he supposed to getting out of whatever it is you think he's doing? some shows (usually bad ones) were critic proof in whichever decade you'd locate the apex of the critic's power. your assertion that a pan or a rave from brantley is "just what one guy thinks" doesn't really hold water. your own response seems evidence of that. you're exactly right about the diminishment of the critic in general and the rapid (potentially devastating) decline in the number of critics as print media takes it's blows but the result is the times is now more powerful than ever. it was always the loudest voice in the room. now the chief critic of the ny times is, for all practical purposes, the last man standing. he has a bully pulpit like never before. i'm not saying that's a good thing, i don't think it is, it's just how i see things being right now. i think your passion for this production - for whatever reason - is a beautiful thing and i applaud you for it. i mean that sincerely. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| you think THAT was a pan? | |
| Posted by: | fm_15 08:12 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - BroadwayLouBlaze 05:14 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| Your experience attending shows is impressive but I wonder if you're either not as experienced reading his reviews or or something disingenuous is happening on your part. That was hardly a stinging pan. It was a bored pan. When Brantley wants to ridicule something, he really lets it fly, almost to an immature and unprofessional level. I have cringed reading some of his reviews feeling so bad for the performers but that one sounded like he didn't even put any effort into it. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | TGWW 06:17 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - BroadwayLouBlaze 05:14 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| Oh Louie you preaching to the deaf. I've said it here before. The AVERAGE theatergoer has no need for a critic anymore. With one click of a mouse, we are now invited into the press rehearsal, the backstage blog, the television commercial and so on and by the time the show opens people know if they want to see it without the help of some strangers opinion. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | KingSpeed 03:57 am EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - TGWW 06:17 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| Ummm a bunch of PR controlled video and backstage blog doesn't say anything about whether or not the show is any good. And Ben Brantley's reviews are a STRANGER'S opinion. He's been writing there for years. We know what he likes and dislikes and can take that into account when we read his reviews. I absolutely turn to reviews for what to see, ESPECIALLY with movies. There were a lot of great movies last year (The Way Way Back, Enough Said, Mud) that would never have gone to see if it weren't for the fact that they got a high percentage on Rotten Tomatoes. They weren't highly publicized so I wouldn't have researched anything I hadn't heard about. In these cases, these reviews led me to see some great movies last year. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | TGWW 02:53 pm EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - KingSpeed 03:57 am EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| And I'm not talking about YOU. I'm talking the average theater goer and this place does not represent them .The average theater goers doesn't sit around like they are at Sardi's waiting for the opening night reviews. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| aren't* a stranger's opinion. Nm | |
| Posted by: | KingSpeed 03:59 am EDT 03/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - KingSpeed 03:57 am EDT 03/15/14 |
|
| |
| Nm | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | keikekaze 11:16 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - TGWW 06:17 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| The AVERAGE theatergoer has no need for a critic anymore. Oh, I don't know. With all the preview devices you mention, people may now know whether they're interested in a show--though I think they always did know that. What they still don't know--and might still want to seek a professional opinion about--is whether the show is any good. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | jon_sense 06:07 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - BroadwayLouBlaze 05:14 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| Lou, you've written a long impassioned post because a critic didn't like a show. You've seized on a sentence to justify your anger. I was there at a press preview as well and I admit there seemed to be fans of the movie who screamed approval any time a movie moment was evoked. And the staging seemed to impress the house. The material itself didn't seem to connect. No song or situation generated much electricity. Of course, like all opinions, this is subjective. Do you really think he felt the show was a bomb worthy of being placed beside Into the Light and its brethren as all-time top what-were-they-thinking disasters? Or are you just upset the show is in danger of being a financial flop? For my quick take on the show, here's what I tweeted: Rocky has the '76 film's story, the song from III, & the soullessness of IV&V. As kinetic spectacle though, it's the season's main event. The movie's strongest suit was Rocky's underdog status. As hard as he works and as well as he does, Andy Karl is a strapping hunk who doesn't read as someone whom everyone has written off. There's a parallel here between Rocky beating the odds to become a contender and Karl becoming a star. Like Rocky, he's still standing by the curtain call. But I wished I'd felt the surging heart that Stallone brought to the role. | |
| Link | soulless spectacle |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 06:04 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - BroadwayLouBlaze 05:14 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| He says that at 10:10 (when the fight begins) that the audience "wakes out of its couch potato stupor." Ok, as it happened, I was at the same performance as Brantley. Saw the man come in. Saw him take his seat. I know and he knows the audience was in anything but a stupor." I mean come on...he knows that. So, simply put, this is a lie. He is absolutely misreporting what was happening at the event he covered. Were you sitting right near him? Isn't it quite possible that he was honestly reporting the energy (or lack thereof) he felt in his vicinity? Whether it should or shouldn't be his job to comment on what he feels the audience is feeling (and I think to some extent that should be allowed in a review), certainly no one expects him to be able to gauge the entire audience - he can only go on what he experiences around him. And indeed, maybe everyone around him WAS bored until the finale. How can YOU be sure they weren't?? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | Ann 06:17 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - Chromolume 06:04 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| Should a comment like that be taken literally? Not to mention that we've seen here, two people at the same performance claiming to know what the whole audience was doing/thinking/feeling and the takes were completely different. Those often reflect what the reporter wanted to see/hear. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Agree .... | |
| Posted by: | jdm 06:44 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - Ann 06:17 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| I took Brantley's comments as how HE felt about the show, not what was literally going around him. I was at the same performance that he was at, the crowd around me was so enthusiastic from start to finish - but maybe that was only the 500 people around ME!! :-) Jim | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Seemed like an enthusiastic house to me. | |
| Posted by: | Restoration 08:21 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | Agree .... - jdm 06:44 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| At the very least. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 05:52 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - BroadwayLouBlaze 05:14 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| attacking the messenger rarely makes a silk purse out of a sow's ear. He hated something that maybe you. So did a bunch of other folk. Are you all princes without thrones? Haven't you ever just really not liked something? Did it have to do with princes and thrones? What's next? Your positive psychoanalysis of Teachout and Reed? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| i think you are too close the production and investors | |
| Posted by: | dramedy 05:43 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - BroadwayLouBlaze 05:14 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| to have an objective mind. If you love it, great, but not everyone does. I think Brantley is right on the mark--he could have gone further in ripping apart the score--which is surprising bad from F&A. And the steps is a fair analysis that if you haven't seen the movie--you wouldn't know why everyone is cheering. A musical should not rely on the base material to fill in the gaps. clearly, the people behind me LOVED the movie and LOVED the musical. Once that fan base is gone, i'm not sure how well it last. I originally gave the show 2 years and close to recoup--but unless those grosses go up a lot--the show is doomed to limp along to tonys. Some shows don't need good reviews to keep open because word of mouth is so good or brand (disney), i think this show needed some really good reviews. by the way, on your list of bombs, i did see In the Light. Frankly, rocky wasn't any better than that one. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | LizzieW 05:43 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - BroadwayLouBlaze 05:14 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| What I find more disingenuous is the immediate vitriol thrown at Brantley's way anytime someone happens to disagree with his assessment of a show. I swear, you could set a watch by how predictable the backlash against him and other reviewers comes when his opinion isn't shared by the majority. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | MockingbirdGirl 05:24 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - BroadwayLouBlaze 05:14 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| Personally, I happen to think that ROCKY is a pretty spectacular entertainment from beginning to end. He happens to disagree, as is his prerogative. I haven't seen the show, but his comments seem to align with much of what has been posted in this forum throughout previews. And certainly, the fact that you had a different read on the audience that night is hardly proof he is being "disingenuous." He was supposed to rule the kingdom and someone took away the little prince's thrown. His what now? LOL. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | BroadwayLouBlaze 05:26 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - MockingbirdGirl 05:24 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| Oh how embarrassing!! THRONE. I spent all that time writing and not not enough time correcting. There are typos everywhere. Sorry!!! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review | |
| Posted by: | swing77 10:03 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: BRANTLEY on ROCKY: a disingenous joke of a review - BroadwayLouBlaze 05:26 pm EDT 03/14/14 |
|
| |
| The show is a spectacle with a terrific perfomance by the leading man...but a musical must have good music if you are charging $140 a ticket. The applause after almost every number was like golf course applause the night I saw it. Save for the last scene, there was not one showstopper. The scene where Rocky drinks raw eggs got bigger applause than the musical numbers save for Adrian's number in the second act which was not terribly good either. Can you imagine his review if he had to pay for his ticket? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
All That Chat is intended for the discussion of
theatre news and opinion
subject to the terms and conditions of the Terms of Service. (Please take all off-topic discussion to private email.)
Please direct technical questions/comments to webmaster@talkinbroadway.com and policy questions to TBAdmin@talkinbroadway.com.
[ Home | On the Rialto | The Siegel Column | Cabaret | Tony Awards | Book Reviews | Great White Wayback Machine ]
[ Broadway Reviews | Barbara and Scott: The Two of Clubs | Sound Advice | Restaurant Revue | Off Broadway | Funding Talkin' Broadway ]
[ Broadway 101 | Spotlight On | Talkin' Broadway | On the Boards | Regional | Talk to Us! | Search Talkin' Broadway ]
Terms of Service
[ © 1997 - 2014 www.TalkinBroadway.com, Inc. ]
Time to render: 2.296845 seconds.