| Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | Maguire75 12:43 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| Unlike the bleak years of the 1980s, high demand in the current commercial theatre market could certainly justify a few more mid-size Broadway houses, but will it ever happen? There are several empty lots in prime theater locations on 44th and 45th Streets, and new high rises seem to be going up yearly in the theater district - I'm frankly surprised none have cut a deal with the city to include a new Broadway house. Surely the rent paid by a long running theatrical tenant would be more lucrative than the huge retail spaces most are building on the ground level instead, that seem to mostly be sitting empty (or rotate through short livid tenants) for years at a time. Is it just too costly? City zoning too strict now to build a Broadway theater? Other options? The Liberty Theater on 42nd is remarkably well preserved - though it is currently housing a restaurant, it doesn't seem hard to imagine it potentially being used as a theater again. The Times Square Church? The former Mark Hellenger Theater has been orgeously preserved by the religious group - could it ever be sold back to one of the theatre conglomerates? The Little Shubert? I believe is a couple hundred seats shy of the seat count necessary for a Broadway house - but why does the Shubert Organization let it sit used as a flop house for very short lived Off-Broadway runs? Tax write off? Any other thoughts / possibilities? | |
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| 46th and eighth? | |
| Posted by: | bobby2 01:39 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - Maguire75 12:43 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| What is planned for that corner? It could use a theatre. They tore down the old stuff and put up that flea market type place. | |
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| re: 46th and eighth? | |
| Posted by: | NewtonUK 08:44 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | 46th and eighth? - bobby2 01:39 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Do you mean 47th and 8th? This block - between 47 & 48, is the old DeMille theatre. A beautiful old movie palace. Its still in there behind the souvenir shops on Broadway which take up much of the old lobby. I was in the DeMille about 5 years with a group with interest in making it a Broadway Theatre - its derelict but a lot of detail is left, beautiful proscenium. Unfortunately it would only be about a 1,000 seater - so no musicals - and the costs were severe to restore it. Not worth it, at the end of the day, as a playhouse. Sigh. | |
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| Yes - 46th and 8th. | |
| Posted by: | seeseveryshow 10:06 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: 46th and eighth? - NewtonUK 08:44 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| I believe he means the east side of 8th Avenue between 45th & 46th. The section on 46th St. west of the Imperial has been cleared. A few small buildings still remain on the 45th St side just west of where the tent for NATASHA AND THE COMET was recently located. As for the DeMille, I believe it was on 7th Avenue (not 8th Avenue or Broadway). See link | |
| Link | DeMille Theatre NYC |
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| This Was Extensively Discussed Here A Few Years Ago And.... | |
| Posted by: | toddlin 04:57 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
| In reply to: | Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - Maguire75 12:43 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| The figure bandied about for a new ground up theater in Manhattan was $100-120 million. There was talk in Chicago at that time about the need for another theater in the downtown theater district and it was estimated At $60-80 million. Never happened. | |
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| re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | FriendofDorothy 02:33 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
| In reply to: | Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - Maguire75 12:43 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| I think the primary factor working against construction of a new theatre (or conversion of an older space back into theatrical service) is the fact that, by and large, the space where a theatre would go would make much more money for the developer as retail space. Same reason why shops and galleries get pushed out of other neighborhoods. Times Square is the most extreme example, because of the superheavy foot traffic. I think the only way new performing space would be added to the Broadway area is as some sort of enhancement to allow a zoning variation (if it were a non-profit theatre) or a as a trade for zoning elsewhere. Plus, there are very few properties in existence with a footprint to build a new Broadway house. | |
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| In 1967, New York City expanded the scope of special district zoning by establishing the Special Theater District. | |
| Posted by: | tealady 04:15 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - FriendofDorothy 02:33 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| i remember the special district zoning from the 1967 NYC, you can read the full information on the link below... but with zoning it fostered the building of the Minskoff, Uris, circle in the sq. i am sure if their was interest, this could be expanded again. who do we call? a sample of what you can read from the long long text... In 1967, New York City expanded the scope of special district zoning by establishing the Special Theater District. With development pressures moving westward (fueled in part by the plaza 13 bonus), the City sought to protect the Broadway theater from “elimination of its capital plant” (Garvin, 2002, p. 448). Believing that the construction of new, modern theaters would recharge the Great White Way, the City offered a 20 percent floor-area bonus for the inclusion of new theaters as part of developments in the Special Theater District. The incentive would only spur a handful of new theaters, In spite of these shortcomings, the Special Theater District was a watershed event, signaling the acceptance of contextual development and cultural character as valid purposes for zoning. It marked the “first attempt to use zoning to recapture the value of private development in order to further the city’s social agenda” Furthermore, it specifically validated the economic importance of the legitimate theater, both in terms of the “useful cluster” of theater-related businesses in West Midtown (New York City Planning Commission, 1982) | |
| Link | HIDDEN PERFORMANCE: NEW YORK CITY’S THEATER SUBDISTRICT AND THE CHALLENGES OF SPECIAL DISTRICT ZONING |
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| re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 01:33 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
| In reply to: | Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - Maguire75 12:43 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| Good question. One problem is that the average revenue from a Broadway theater is unknowable. There are 35 commercial Broadway theaters, owned almost solely by the Nederlander Organization (8 theaters), Jujamcyn Theatres (6), and the Shubert Organization (17). The remaining commercial houses are the Helen Hayes owned by the Martin Markinson and Donald Tick families, Circle in the Square which began as a nfp but is now a commercial theater, and the Foxwood owned by the British company the Ambassador Theatre Group. The New Amsterdam is owned by the City of New York but is on a long-term, low priced lease to Disney. In essence, commercial Broadway theaters are owned and operated by just three entities. Nederlander and Jujamcyn are closely-held corporations which do not publish annual reports or other measures of revenue, profitability, etc. The Shubert Organization is a real rarity. It is a for-profit organization wholly owned by a nfp corporation, the Shubert Foundation. This is extremely rare and probably could be overturned in court but who would challenge the Shubert Organization? Again, these two interlocked entities publish no publicly available records of profitability. (The Shubert Foundation's nfp report to the IRS is available publicly, but it doesn't detail the real finances of the Shubert Organization. If you want to see the most recent available IRS report for the Shubert Organization, it is here: http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990pf_pdf_archive/136/136106961/136106961_201205_990PF.pdf) The Shubert Organization doesn't need a tax write-off. It doesn't pay most taxes. Without some notion of the revenues and risk of a new Broadway theater, no investor is tempted to build one. New York's newer Broadway houses exist because the City required a developer of a hotel or other larger structure to build a theater in that building to receive zoning exceptions or to replace theaters they tore down to build on the site. (Examples include The Marquis, the Gershwin, and the Sondheim.) Also note that the Little Shubert is one seat shy of Broadway size on purpose. Add one seat and the Little Shubert is subject to Broadway contracts with higher minimum salaries and more expensive work rules. By the way, the empty lot at 46th and 8th is owned by the Shubert Foundation. I have a good friend who mourns the loss of the Broadway Inn on that site before it was cleared. Don't know what's going up there but I'm pretty sure it's not a theater. | |
| Link | Stage Money |
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| re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | WaymanWong 04:17 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - tmdonahue 01:33 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| I understand the issue of the Little Shubert being one seat shy, so it's not subject to Broadway contracts, but that still doesn't answer Maguire75's query: What's the point of leaving the Little Shubert empty most of the time? And if it did add a seat so it's a regulation Broadway house, wouldn't it get more bookings? It seems too big for most Off-Broadway shows. | |
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| re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 04:28 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - WaymanWong 04:17 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| It may be too big for off and too small for on. It is really an enigma, and a black hole. Obviously, if the Shuberts thought it had promise as a Broadway house, they could act on it. I think as much as anything else the prevailing policy is that the Broadway balance is working fine, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Maybe some day they will divest themselves of it and someone will convert it into a viable non profit. Or maybe some day they will figure out what to do with their white elephant. | |
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| re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | AverageBwayNut 03:04 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - tmdonahue 01:33 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| Small housekeeping note: Jujamcyn owns 5 (not 6): St. James, Hirschfeld, Kerr, O'Neill, August Wilson. Nederlander owns 9 (not 8): Nederlander, Minskoff, Rodgers, Lunt, Atkinson, Marquis, Palace, Gershwin, Neil Simon. | |
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| re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 01:24 pm EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - AverageBwayNut 03:04 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| Forgive me. Doesn't change my contention that Broadway theater buildings are an oligopoly. | |
| Link | Stage Money |
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| re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 02:13 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - tmdonahue 01:33 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| just one note on this... There is nothing unkosher about the shubert structure, and it is not at all unusual. | |
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| re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 01:18 pm EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - ryhog 02:13 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| It is not unkosher only because the IRS wrote a letter allowing the Shubert Foundation to maintain this structure in 1969 when the tax code was amended to generally forbid such structures. The Foundation argued that to force it to sell the Organization would endanger the American theater. In 1969, that argument had more weight than it might hold now. The IRS decision is unusual. As the Times reported: 'Even today, few people seem aware of the Shubert tax ruling. After it was recently brought to his attention by a reporter, John Edie, the counsel for the Council on Foundations, the foundation trade organization, expressed surprise. "I've been here for 12 years, and this is the first exemption I've heard of," he said. "This is pretty amazing."' The New York Times article for background: http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/11/us/irs-ruling-wrote-script-for-the-shubert-tax-break.html What is bothersome is the Shubert Organization/Shubert Foundation is overseen by no one. An NFP is theoretically run in service of its community and thus must expose much about its finances. The community can support or not support the organization, in part based on that information. Typical public data points are the earnings from the NFP of any board members, any contracts with companies owned or managed by board members, and the salaries and identity of the top five earners. The IRS report for the Shubert Foundation shows payments to only two members of its board, the president who gets $90 k for an estimated 5 hours work per week ($346 an hour, not a lot for a NYC lawyer, for example), and the Assistant Director/Executive Director who is paid about $334k for an estimated 40 hrs (only $160 per hour). However, all the members of the board of the Shubert Organization are directors of the Shubert Foundation. How much are they paid from the Organization? No one knows--but themselves. If the Organization was a publicly held corporation, some reporting would be done to benefit the shareholders' decision making. If it was a privately held corporation, the owners would surely know and approve such salaries. There is no oversight. It is not criminal but the interlocking ownership is a moral hazard. Having written that, it is undeniably true that the Shubert Foundation/Organization did much to keep Broadway theater alive in the terrible 1970s-1980s. Maybe only a nfp organization could have. After all, the Nederlanders sold the Mark Hellinger to the Times Square church in 1991. | |
| Link | Stage Money |
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| re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 03:00 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - tmdonahue 01:18 pm EDT 04/01/14 |
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| The unusual-ness was a surprise to me, as discussed in the other post. But your suggestion that the arrangement could be challenged in court is (as you seem now to acknowledge) simply wrong. What makes the arrangement unusual is that the foundation wholly owns the corporation. If the Shuberts owned 49% of Jujamcyn and Nederlander, it would not be an issue. The compensation of anyone paid from the foundation is fully reported publicly. But you seem to be chasing the wrong fox. The cash flow (and it is quite substantial) is from the corporation to the foundation, not the other way around. So if there is an issue that raises a concern it is that the arrangement avoids scrutiny on a private inurement theory because the principals get to decide how much to ship upstream after taking care of themselves, and that is unchecked. Were the Shuberts to recede as by far the most substantial benefactor of non-profit theatre (as well as the broader arts community), there might be real cause for concern at the IRS. But that's not the case. And since no one other than the corporation contributes to the foundation, there is no constituency for anyone else to complain. | |
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| re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | AverageBwayNut 03:00 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - ryhog 02:13 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| Actually, the Shubert structure is quite rare indeed. Perhaps even unique. The most informative article I've read on the topic is at the link below. | |
| Link | NY Times July 1994 |
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| re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 03:57 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - AverageBwayNut 03:00 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| Thanks for that-I was under the impression there were multiple exemptions. The article also, of course, makes clear that the structure has the IRS's blessing. | |
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| re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 12:55 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
| In reply to: | Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - Maguire75 12:43 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| Ever is a long time, and no one can intelligently prognosticate beyond the foreseeable. It is certainly conceivable that a theatre could be added, but the equilibrium at present seems pretty good, such that it would likely involve the hare-brained scheme of an outsider. The issue is cost, not zoning. For different reasons, none of the built options you mention are likely. The Liberty has configuration issues (I can't remember what exactly), the Times Square is just n/a from the church standpoint and the little shubert, which is actually just 1 seat shy of Broadway size, is just too small to be viable-we already have plenty of hard to rent small venues. | |
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| re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? | |
| Posted by: | sloughie 01:25 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Will we ever see another "new' Broadway Theater ever again? - ryhog 12:55 pm EDT 03/30/14 |
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| It's seems like the smaller broadway venues are actually the quickest to book -- the Booth and Helen Hayes are perpetually filled. It would be nice to have another intimate house. Unfortunately, even though it has a small seat count, the Little Shubert doesn't feel so intimate. | |
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