| So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | Rangerette 01:28 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| How come everybody else in the cast always is? (I know old topic but I thought it would be fun to stir it up again since Michelle Williams repeated it in the Times today) | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 12:37 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - Rangerette 01:28 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| It's simply an excuse to cast a "name" without regard to vocal talent. If the creators truly wanted bad singers in the role, they would have limited the number of songs Sally has to sing. There are plenty of good singers who wind up singing in lousy clubs. It's a tough business. Even a brilliant singing Sally could wind up in a lousy club. Why doesn't anybody wonder why an incredibly dynamic M.C. is working in that same lousy club in Berlin? Shouldn't the MC be bad too? Give me a musical where the actors sing. Well. I can suspend my disbelief enough to fill in the rest of the story. I perfectly accepted Liza as Sallyin the film. She certainly might not have made it in a better club for many other reasons than her voice - she was quirky, not pretty, those are enough reasons why she may not have been able to land a job elsewhere. But damn, it was good to hear Liza belt out those tremendous numbers rather than have some tone deaf actress "ACT" her way through the role. If I wanted a non-singing Sally, I'd go see I AM A CAMERA not CABARET. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:14 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 12:37 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| "Why doesn't anybody wonder why an incredibly dynamic M.C. is working in that same lousy club in Berlin? Shouldn't the MC be bad too?" I've seen Grey in the film and in the 1987 revival, and I saw Cumming when the Roundabout production was new, and I always felt that the Emcee was meant to be a third-rate performer. However dynamic and talented those men may be, they played the character as a third-rate performer. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 06:40 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - AlanScott 06:14 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Harold Prince said he had a certain performer in mind when the Emcee role was created who was someone he had seen in Germany I believe. Joel Grey I believe when it came time to actually creating that character recalled some very embarrassingly bad Borsht Belt comic he had seen perform--sort of the type that radiates "flop sweat". However Prince and Grey had it in their minds, it pretty much needed to be suggested rather than totally realized in the musical telling; otherwise, the performance would have suffered. Grey's brilliance was giving a fantastic performance while suggesting a weird, eccentric sexually-charged Bacchus/Pied Piper who was fun to watch but was leading the audience down a very dangerous road. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | scoot1er 03:38 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 12:37 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| "It's simply an excuse to cast a "name" without regard to vocal talent." You may recall that the original production cast Jill Haworth who was not a name, nor were her replacements. So, the fact that it is an excuse to cast name actors doesn't really hold water. Of course, those were the days when producers relied less on names than today. But, the original concept had nothing to do with "name" actors and much to do with Sally who was a second-rate talent in a crummy club. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | MockingbirdGirl 01:45 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 12:37 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Give me a musical where the actors sing. Well. I can suspend my disbelief enough to fill in the rest of the story. Whereas give me a performer who can act the hell out of a role, and I'll forgive the less-than-perfect singing. Chacun à son goût. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 05:27 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - MockingbirdGirl 01:45 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| I'll take an actor who can act the hell out of a role and sound like the Broadway equivalent of Enrico Caruso or Rosa Ponselle at the same time, thank you. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 05:36 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - PlayWiz 05:27 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| you want a sally bowles who sounds like enrico caruso? why? | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 05:38 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - enoch10 05:36 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| I said the Broadway equivalent - in style that is -- ok, so Mary Martin perhaps or Dolores Gray. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 05:54 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - PlayWiz 05:38 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| i love dolores gray. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 02:24 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - MockingbirdGirl 01:45 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Why not then just see the play? I agree that I want the role to be well acted too but at $150+ a ticket, I expect a good singer, dancer AND actor in every role. Of course, certain roles aren't necessarily written for a strong voices. I'm fine with a well acted and not too beautifully sung Henry Higgins. But would I want an Eliza who can act like Judi Dench but sing like Elaine Stritch? No thank you. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 05:24 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 02:24 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| for $150 you should expect a musical correctly cast. she isn't supposed to be a painfully bad singer just one likely to be performing in a place like that during a time like that. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | MockingbirdGirl 02:39 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 02:24 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Why not then just see the play?... I'm fine with a well acted and not too beautifully sung Henry Higgins. But would I want an Eliza who can act like Judi Dench but sing like Elaine Stritch? No thank you. Ah, creating hybrids now, are we? What about an Eliza who can act like Judi Dench and sing like Judi Dench? What about a Phyllis in Follies who can act like Diana Rigg but also sings like Diana Rigg? If it's not up to your standards, fine... but luckily, we don't all share them. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 02:33 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 02:24 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| >Of course, certain roles aren't necessarily written for a strong voices Like Sally Bowles. The people who created the show cast Jill Haworth in the role. If they thought the role required an amazing singer, they would've cast one. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 05:36 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - MikeR 02:33 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| But Jill Haworth sounds wonderful on the recording. The original show didn't add "Maybe This Time" and "Mein Herr". It only had her singing "Don't Tell Mama", "Perfectly Marvelous" and the title song (and a reprise of it). It's not a great voice, but it is tuneful and even just by voice alone, captures the essence of this young English girl who is putting on sophisticated airs yet can't really hide the fact that she's really not who she is trying to be. Unfortunately, Walter Kerr's original review knocked Haworth's performance, but people who had seen the show said that he was dead wrong, and that she was actually superb! | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | bobby2 08:28 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - PlayWiz 05:36 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| and weren't replacements Anita Gilette and Penny Fuller good singers? | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | sf 04:57 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - MikeR 02:33 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| And then they cast Judi Dench in the London production - and again, it's not as if there was nobody else available. It depends on the role. I don't particularly want to hear an Eliza Dolittle who can't hit the high notes - but pretty much anyone can sing the role of, say, Desirée Armfeldt, *provided they can act it too*. During this 'Cabaret' revival's original 75-year run on Broadway (I'm kidding, but it felt like it), some very strong singers indeed played Sally Bowles. Some very weak ones did as well; the role works either way. That wouldn't be true of every role in every show - we saw in the film of 'Les Mis' what happens when someone who hasn't much of a voice takes on the role of Javert, for example, and it wasn't pretty - but it's true of pretty much all the leads in 'Cabaret'. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 05:57 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - sf 04:57 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| I agree with you. Certain roles lend themselves to actors who can sing rather than singers who can act. LES MIZ needs the latter in the leads. It is not the case with Desiree which was specifically written for a non-singing voice. Eliza, on the other hand, requires strong singing (or else why dubb Audrey Hepburn, right?) Sally Bowles, at least in the original stage show, may have been able to get by with less singing chops but she does need to be able to sing. This revival adds songs written for Liza so this ups the ante vocally and thus the requirement for an actress who can sing. Anyway, I'm sure there will be plenty of people willing to shell out big bucks to hear Williams in the role. Maybe she'll get a rave from the Times like Melanie Griffith did in CHICAGO for her musical artistry. I'll save my money and rent the film version instead. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:10 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 05:57 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Yes, I do think that is a problem in this version. "Mein Herr" doesn't necessarily require a great voice, but you want a good voice for "Maybe This Time," which, IIRC, was not written for Minnelli but for Kaye Ballard. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | sf 06:06 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 05:57 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Well, in this revival, last time around, the late, great Natasha Richardson *did* get raves from pretty much everybody, and she also got the additional songs from the movie, and as wonderful as she was (on CD, anyway - I didn't see her in this, although I did, when I was a teenager, see her in another musical), she didn't have much of a singing voice. The role - even the expanded role in this production - requires an actress who can put a number across. It does not necessarily require a great singing voice. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 06:39 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - sf 06:06 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| True. But there's a big gap between an actress who can sing and has the ability to put over a song and one who is lost in a musical. We shall see if Williams manages to put over the role as well as Richardson did. I have my doubts that she will receive the same notices in the role. Then again, this is simply not what I personally look for when going to see a musical. And as good as Richardson may have been in the role, I'll still prefer seeing and hearing Liza actually belt out "Maybe This Time" and the title song. Just as I prefer to hear Ethel Merman or Patti LuPone belt out the score of GYPSY over Tyne Daly. John Raitt over Michael Hayden in CAROUSEL. The songs are why I go to musicals. Otherwise, I'm just as happy seeing a play. Badly sung musicals do nothing for me, no matter how wonderfully acted they may be. All I remember is the bad singing, not the great acting. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 01:20 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 12:37 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| >> It's simply an excuse to cast a "name" without regard to vocal talent. actually it is in the source material. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 02:28 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - enoch10 01:20 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| There are many things in source materials that aren't taken so literally. And let's face it. If a more well known actress with a better voice wanted to play this role, the producers would somehow have overlooked the source material in this case too. | |
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| Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:04 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 02:28 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| At least according to several accounts. Kander and Ebb suggested Minnelli for the original production. Masteroff did not because she did not seem like she could play British. Prince vetoed the idea of casting of her because she did not seem like she could play British and because she sang too well. | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | Dalmaniac 09:33 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 06:04 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| "Prince vetoed the idea of casting of her because she did not seem like she could play British..." Minnelli performed the title song from "Cabaret" in her nightclub act in the sixties long before playing Sally on screen. She sang it in a pretty good facsimile of an English accent. | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 12:24 am EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - Dalmaniac 09:33 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Interesting. Well, perhaps Prince and Masteroff were wrong. | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | Dalmaniac 02:23 am EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 12:24 am EDT 04/01/14 |
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| "...perhaps Prince and Masteroff were wrong." I think that may be what she was trying to prove! But she and Fosse obviously decided not to prove it on celluloid! I went to the fist screening (10.00 am) of Cabaret at London't Prince Edward cinema. Stritch was sitting right behind us, shouting "Go, Liza!" at the screen throughout. Surreal. | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 12:36 am EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - Dalmaniac 02:23 am EDT 04/01/14 |
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| >> Stritch was sitting right behind us, shouting "Go, Liza!" at the screen throughout. Surreal. this made my day. | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | Alcindoro 10:25 pm EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - Dalmaniac 02:23 am EDT 04/01/14 |
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| "I went to the fist screening (10.00 am) of Cabaret at London't Prince Edward cinema." Oh my. And here I thought that was a bit of business Mendes later inserted into the Donmar revival. So to speak. | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 04:04 am EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - Dalmaniac 02:23 am EDT 04/01/14 |
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| Oh, my God! You could dine out on that forever. I once had an experience with Stritch right behind me in a theatre, but it wasn't quite as dramatic (though still kind of funny). | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 11:27 am EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 04:04 am EDT 04/01/14 |
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| She sat behind me (not directly - a couple rows behind and a couple seats over) at the NY Philharmonic Company. I tried to sneak a peek at her during Ladies Who Lunch... and she was gone. Read into that whatever you will. | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | Dalmaniac 07:26 am EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 04:04 am EDT 04/01/14 |
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| " I once had an experience with Stritch right behind me in a theatre...." Do tell! This was at the time Stritch was in residence at the Savoy and was causing a nuisance at The Piccadilly because Angela was doing Gypsy and not her. She definitely cleaned up her act after that... and more power to her, but we'd love to hear your story, Alan! | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 04:53 pm EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - Dalmaniac 07:26 am EDT 04/01/14 |
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| It was at opening night of the Turner-Irwin Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? I had just passed the ticket taker and entered the Longacre and was going to turn to go up the stairs to the mezzanine when suddenly I heard an unmistakable voice behind me. I soon realized the owner of this voice was talking to an usher. This was said in her best little old lady voice. "Excuse me, I'm Elaine Stritch. I've got a seat down front but I'm a diabetic, and I was wondering if you could find me a seat in the back on an aisle in case I have to suddenly run downstairs to take a shot of insulin." Now that I've heard MikeR's story, and considering that she'd been a miatinee Martha in the original production (and later did an excellent BBC radio production of the play), I'm wondering if she was thinking, "I may want to make a quick exit from this." | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | larry13 09:12 am EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - Dalmaniac 07:26 am EDT 04/01/14 |
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| Did Stritch ever do GYPSY anywhere? | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 04:54 pm EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - larry13 09:12 am EDT 04/01/14 |
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| No, she never played Rose, although she's done "Rose's Turn" in her cabaret act(s). | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | larry13 05:03 am EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 04:54 pm EDT 04/01/14 |
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| Thanks Alan. And, on the subject of Stritch--and a part I'm positive she never did--it was mentioned at the seminar preceding the MOST HAPPY FELLA dress rehearsal last night that Stritch very much wanted to do a part--presumably Cleo--for the opening of the original production. Not so surprising, she would not sing the high C that Loesser had written and asked for it to be transposed down slightly. Not so surprising, he refused and the rest is history. Never knew about this. Jo Sullivan Loesser was present but I believe it was Laurence Maslon, interviewing her, who basically told this story. Do you know anything about it? | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:56 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - larry13 05:03 am EDT 04/02/14 |
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| I think I've heard that Stritch was up for the role of Cleo, but I haven't heard anything more. I assume that even if Maslon said it was a high C, it wasn't. Cleo never sings a note anywhere near high C. It must have been the C an octave down from high C, which might have been a stretch for Stritch even then. B might have been about it for Stritch. | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | larry13 09:56 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 06:56 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Thanks again, Alan. I also doubted Cleo sings anything like high C. There were several inaccuracies--putting it mildly--that were stated at that seminar. | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | Dalmaniac 10:23 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - larry13 09:56 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| I think, nowadays, "a high C", has become shorthand for an extremely difficult note to hit, whatever the value of the actual note is. | |
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| re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production | |
| Posted by: | bobby2 08:50 pm EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 04:54 pm EDT 04/01/14 |
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| I saw Stritch at Other Desert Cities a few years ago. She was with Bernadette Peters. I was a couple of rows in front of them. At intermission Stritch had all sorts of questions on the plot which Bernadette explained. and she was on the aisle | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 05:20 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 02:28 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| >>There are many things in source materials that aren't taken so literally. usually specific characters descriptions aren't one of them. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 05:58 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - enoch10 05:20 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Didn't seem to worry Fosse or the makers of the Oscar-winning film. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 09:22 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 05:58 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| >>Didn't seem to worry Fosse or the makers of the Oscar-winning film. um, fosse was the maker of the oscar-winning film. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 10:19 am EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - enoch10 09:22 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| I know. But he didn't do it alone. He directed the film. He didn't produce or write it. Thus, not the only creator of the film. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | Michael_212 11:34 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - Rangerette 01:28 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| I don't think it's a matter of her not being a good singer, but rather someone who lacks the artistry of a Broadway musical star. I think Molly Ringwald was a excellent Sally. She sang and danced with a lot of enthusiasm but little polish. Her accent and mannerisms were just fake enough that I felt like her Sally was an American trying to reinvent herself as a sophisticated Brit, but not especially convincing at it. | |
| Link | Corner Table |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 10:32 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - Rangerette 01:28 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| "How come everybody else in the cast always is?" I'm not sure what you mean. Many performers who have played the character roles in the show in various productions have not been "good singers" in the sense of having trained, pretty voices, which would be all wrong for those characters. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Elaine Stritch | |
| Posted by: | Greg_M 09:11 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - Rangerette 01:28 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| need I say more? | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | MarjorieMae 09:07 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - Rangerette 01:28 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Because no one wants to pay Broadway prices to hear lousy singing. Believe me. I sat through a Pal Joey preview with Edward Villella and Eleanor Parker(RIP). | |
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| oh, Marjorie Mae... | |
| Posted by: | TsuHsi 03:22 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - MarjorieMae 09:07 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| I am so glad you are on this board. First of all, I agree with you. Secondly, some time ago, when I said, on this board, that I had seen Edward Villella and Eleanor Parker in Pal Joey, I received the following: "Sometimes the pearls become real with age" -- and was informed I had never seen any such thing, that they never performed it. I had to dig up Ken Mandelbaum to prove that I had. We must have been at the same preview. And as anyone who saw them knows, you couldn't possibly make it up or forget it. | |
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| re: oh, Marjorie Mae... | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 05:23 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | oh, Marjorie Mae... - TsuHsi 03:22 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Did Villela and Parker only do one preview performance before a paying audience before they were fired? It's a shame someone like Tommy Rall or Michael Berresse didn't get a chance to play Joey in a big venue sometime during their careers. | |
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| re: oh, Marjorie Mae...and oh, TsuHsi | |
| Posted by: | henny 12:16 am EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: oh, Marjorie Mae... - PlayWiz 05:23 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Please, give us a few words about the performance. Was there no hope? I've been imagining Parker singing WHAT IS A MAN? for many years now. Was there not just the tiniest glimmer of hope that she might grow into Vera? | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | sf 09:09 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - MarjorieMae 09:07 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| "Because no one wants to pay Broadway prices to hear lousy singing." And yet Bernadette Peters has a career. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | NightMusic77 11:06 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - sf 09:09 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| ""Because no one wants to pay Broadway prices to hear lousy singing." And yet Bernadette Peters has a career." Obviously, we are all entitled to our opinions, but there's really no need to be downright rude/disrespectful. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 11:11 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - NightMusic77 11:06 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Agreed. That's the kind of nasty comment no one would dare post anywhere if it weren't for the cloak of anonymity. Very cowardly. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | sf 04:49 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - Michael_Portantiere 11:11 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Actually, I've said as much elsewhere, more than once, in posts with my full name attached to them. And it's not, I'm afraid, simply a snide comment, it's a conclusion drawn from having watched a few of her live performances, including a horror of an evening at 'The Goodbye Girl' which is still, more than twenty years later, the single laziest, sloppiest, most unprofessional performance I've seen in a so-called professional production - she wandered around the stage as if she was on tranquilisers, ducked a couple of big notes, paid apparently no attention at all to things like phrasing and breath control, mumbled her dialogue, and didn't even try to maintain eye contact with any of her colleagues. When a few hundred people have paid good money to watch you perform, the *least* you can do is look as though you want to be there. That night, she couldn't be bothered, and that's just not good enough. And then there's the 'Song and Dance' recording, on which - once again - phrasing and breath control appear to be alien concepts to her, the 'Anyone Can Whistle' concert album, on which she's just plain *bad*, and... well, you get the picture. Now, granted, a lot of people like her a lot more than I do, but I assure you the comment wasn't simple bitchiness. She earned it, fair and square. As far as I'm concerned, the Empress isn't wearing any clothes. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 05:35 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - sf 04:49 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| i understand the concept of i don't care much for this but others do. happens to me all the time. i have no idea what people see in WICKED or LES MIZ or any number of other things. but if you insist on drawing on the emperor has no clothes fairy tale then you're saying you have the ability to determine the authentic where everyone else (or at least her fans, which is a pretty large number of people, one of whom is stephen sondheim) can not. can you tell me what it is you have that everyone who likes her lacks? | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | sf 05:43 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - enoch10 05:35 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Did you miss the part immediately before that where I wrote "as far as I'm concerned"? | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 05:53 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - sf 05:43 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| no i saw that. it was the emperors new clothes part i was asking about. the fairy tale is clear in its meaning - others were fooled, i was not. that's the point of the tale you're referencing. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | sf 05:57 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - enoch10 05:53 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Oh, I understand your point, but I thought I'd made myself clear. I tend to assume, when I post online, that people reading will be intelligent enough to understand that anything I post is *just my opinion*. Perhaps I shouldn't. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 09:32 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - sf 05:57 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| i don't think there's any doubt that it's just your opinion. its just you referenced a specific fairy tale with a specific meaning. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 05:17 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - sf 04:49 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| I actually saw Peters in "The Goodbye Girl" and agree that she was not shown to good advantage. I think there were problems with the show and some of the keys some of her songs were in, as there were lots of new songs being put in and taken out, if I recall correctly. Even worse, though, was her part, which is a real stick-in-the-mud. Any time that Martin Short's character wants to do something fun, she puts up an argument and wants to put the kibosh on it. It was a pretty dreadful show with a not very good score. Short's performance was the only thing really enjoyable in it. I knew there was something wrong with a show in which I didn't want to hear Bernadette Peters sing another song; her songs all sounded the same and they just lay there. I don't recall her being unprofessional; I think that her part just wasn't musicalized well. I'm not discounting your experience though -- it's possible she had a really off night. Marsha Mason in the film plays the character as a very difficult lady as well, but somehow she became more palatable in the screenplay. Otherwise, I've seen Peters give superb performances in "Sunday in the Park with George", "Into the Woods", "Gypsy" (yes, she was excellent by the time I saw her, as well as on the Tony broadcast), "Song and Dance" and "A Little Night Music". Her Sally in "Follies" was controversial, and some keys for the songs showed off a break between head and chest voice which she was having some difficult negotiating the night I went; plus her characterization of playing her as extremely needy and unhinged from the get-go must have passed muster with the director (or possibly started with him). She has always been professional when I've seen her, and for the most part, on stage, screen and television, and recordings like "Mack and Mabel", usually wonderful. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | sf 05:29 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - PlayWiz 05:17 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| It is certainly possible she was just having a really off night at the performance I saw - but part of being a professional in *any* line of work is showing up and doing the job *as well as you possibly can* even when you don't feel like it. I imagine, from what I've read about it, that 'The Goodbye Girl' may well not have been a very pleasant experience for her - yes, a thankless, badly-written role that wasn't a very good fit for her, plus a bookwriter and lyricist who didn't get on, a change of directors, and a co-star who got all the good reviews. Unfortunately, once the thing's up and running and playing to the public, the fact that it's not an enjoyable experience is not a licence to show up and give less than 100%. She was, I admit, far better in 'Gypsy' (which I saw *despite* her, because I wanted to see a Broadway-level production of *the show*) - but she was badly miscast, and her singing was, once again, far from unimpeachable, in terms of phrasing and breath control and all the rest of it. As I said, I do understand that some people love her - but I've also seen her do some really bad work, and some mediocre work, and heard her give some pretty dreadful performances on record as well as live. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 08:32 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - sf 05:29 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| ...and a co-star who got all the good reviews... And speaking of the quality of singing voices, in my opinion, Short was out of his league entirely. I didn't see the show live, but hearing the CD (and the terrible Tony performance of that terrible "Paula" song), I have to say that Peters emerges the winner in the voice department. One can trash Peters if they wish, but I find Short unlistenable. | |
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| I love BP's singing...(n/m) | |
| Posted by: | TsuHsi 03:26 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - Michael_Portantiere 11:11 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| :: | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 10:49 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - sf 09:09 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Why pick on her? Try sitting through Adam Pascal in a show or two. My recommendation is no, please. | |
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| re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... | |
| Posted by: | sf 04:50 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - PlayWiz 10:49 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| See a couple of posts up - because I've had the opportunity to see her do some truly dreadful work, I'm afraid. Mr. Pascal... I have never seen him live. I *have* seen the 'Chess in Concert' DVD. That's more than enough. | |
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| Depends what you mean by "good singer". | |
| Posted by: | sf 08:32 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - Rangerette 01:28 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| You can be a "good singer" - that is, sing in a way that moves people - without having a great *voice*. See, for example, Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, Marianne Faithfull, or even someone like Tyne Daly. I never quite bought the argument that Sally *has* to be a "bad" singer either, even though she's singing in a crappy little club - but she doesn't necessarily have to have the most wonderful voice. I still think the definitive Sally on record is Judi Dench, and she certainly doesn't have a singing voice that's conventionally pretty - but she *does* know how to put a number across. In *that* sense, she is a "good singer": via her singing voice, she communicates something that moves/entertains me. | |
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| I never bought that argument... | |
| Posted by: | Glitter 04:07 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - Rangerette 01:28 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| ...because there are plenty of reasons why great singers don't "make it". You can be unreliable or sleep with the wrong person or be lazy or have a bad attitude or be a drug addict or be unlucky or have a bad agent or be out of step with that is conventionally attractive at the time or be a ballad singer when everyone's singing ragtime or live somewhere there is political instability/tension, like oh I don't know, Germany in the 30s :P Anyone who pays even cursory attention to arts and culture know it's not always the talented people who get to the top nor the untalented who stay at the bottom | |
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| re: I never bought that argument... | |
| Posted by: | Maguire75 07:54 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | I never bought that argument... - Glitter 04:07 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Not that you don't have a valid point, but in the original Isherwood story, he writes about Sally's lack of vocal talent From the Wikipedia page about the character: "She is a singer at an underground club called The Lady Windermere. Isherwood describes her singing as poor but surprisingly effective "because of her startling appearance and her air of not caring a curse what people thought of her". | |
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| .it's all well and good...... | |
| Posted by: | portenopete 10:52 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: I never bought that argument... - Maguire75 07:54 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| It's one thing for a writer of a novella to describe a character as a bad singer and then let the reader imagine the sounds she'd make. but it's something else to actually have to listen-for reals- a screechy, tone deaf Sally Bowles. I think she'd be stoned | |
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| re: .it's all well and good...... | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 11:15 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | .it's all well and good...... - portenopete 10:52 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Ideally, I think Sally's singing voice should be compelling and full of emotion but not conventionally pretty or polished. She certainly shouldn't sound like a trained singer. I think that's why some people object to Liza's singing in the film; not that the quality of her voice itself is so inappropriate for Sally, but that she sounds so polished and professional. | |
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| re: .it's all well and good...... | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 11:19 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: .it's all well and good...... - Michael_Portantiere 11:15 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| I always thought that Liza's Sally in the film was a fine singer who just lacked the confidence and support in her life to audition for the better clubs and/or to sleep with a better class of guy to help her career. | |
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| re: .it's all well and good...... | |
| Posted by: | bobby2 08:24 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: .it's all well and good...... - PlayWiz 11:19 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| I think the original poster's point is that why is Sally a bad singer when Kost, Schneider, Schultz, Ernst, etc. often are. If you are going to apply that reality to musicals why is Nellie Forbush a good singer? (she's a nurse) Why is Evita a good singer? Why is..... and in the movie Liza is supposed to be a good singer. Right after she leaves the stage Brian says something like you are really quite wonderful and she says I know darling! She is only like 19 and in Germany during a recession so career opportunities are not exactly plentiful. I always feel the movie is such a different story. She aborts the baby for other reasons too but also because "she has this foolish dream she might even make something out of herself as an actress." (quote is not exact) | |
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| re: .it's all well and good...... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 09:48 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: .it's all well and good...... - bobby2 08:24 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| >> and in the movie Liza is supposed to be a good singer. Right after she leaves the stage Brian says something like you are really quite wonderful and she says I know darling! She is only like 19 and in Germany during a recession so career opportunities are not exactly plentiful. he does compliment her on her singing but, especially at that point, he's an unreliable judge of her character (and by extension her singing skills?). it is a story about his slowly (and painfully) becoming aware of the kind of person she actuality is. he could at this point be as wrong about her talent as he is about everything else about her. the fact is she's in a 3rd rate night club. we don't know what the outcome of her audition at the end will be but i don't think there is anything to indicate we should assume there will be a happy ending for anybody in germany at that time. i think what throws people is minnelli does sing so well. we can see her being in a better club than the kit kat and we can see her singing herself into a better tomorrow. the problem is i don't think any of those characters are going to have a better tomorrow. i don't think she was miscast for the film. i don't think fosse should have had her sing less well. i just think her singing voice (so wonderful then) can throw things at an odd angle. | |
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| re: .it's all well and good...... | |
| Posted by: | bobby2 02:10 am EDT 04/01/14 |
| In reply to: | re: .it's all well and good...... - enoch10 09:48 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| "he does compliment her on her singing but, especially at that point, he's an unreliable judge of her character (and by extension her singing skills?)." the odd thing is that to me in the movie Sally doesn't have poor character. She's a pretty smart cookie who realizes how deluded Brian is about himself and gets out before she is stuck. I always feel Liza's Sally leaves Germany pretty soon after the final scene and set off for New York, New York (pun intended.) whereas in the stage version I feel she goes like Elsie. | |
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| re: .it's all well and good...... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 12:46 am EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: .it's all well and good...... - bobby2 02:10 am EDT 04/01/14 |
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| >> the odd thing is that to me in the movie Sally doesn't have poor character. well, except for the lying and the manipulating and the cheating (if i didn't detest slut shaming i'd add prostitution) yes. | |
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| re: .it's all well and good...... | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 09:00 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: .it's all well and good...... - bobby2 08:24 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Eva Peron doesn't have any diegetic numbers. If we suddenly saw her singing in a night club, maybe we could question it. As for Nellie, is it so hard to believe that there are nurses who can sing, and who might enjoy doing a little theatrical entertainment on the side? | |
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| re: .it's all well and good...... | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 08:43 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: .it's all well and good...... - bobby2 08:24 pm EDT 03/31/14 |
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| If you are going to apply that reality to musicals why is Nellie Forbush a good singer? (she's a nurse)... ...who sings (literally, that is, as a character) in 2 songs - "Honey Bun" and the finale of "Dites-Moi." (Maybe 3 - since Emile later does a short rendition of "Wash That Man" it seems to reason that Nellie is actually singing that song as a character?) I suspect that Nellie (as opposed to the actress playing Nellie, who does need to sell the other major songs) might not be the greatest singer in the world, lol, though clearly she's confident enough to put over "Honey Bun" for the Thanksgiving show. It would actually be interesting to hear someone do the role where the actress could sing as well as we'd expect, but who would sound less polished in "Honey Bun" so that we could distinguish the diegetic performance from the "expression of high emotion" that is the language for erupting into song in the other numbers. | |
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| re: I never bought that argument... | |
| Posted by: | lordofspeech 08:31 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: I never bought that argument... - Maguire75 07:54 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Yes. But I've always thought that most modern show-singing, including Liza's, Dietrich's,, Aretha's, Stevie Wonder's, Menzel's, would fit that description. There was an operetta style of singing (think Helen Morgan and Heannette Mc Donald) and perhaps Sally is raw-er and more idiosyncratic than that, and perhaps that's what Isherwood meant. | |
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| Any chance you meant "Jeanette MacDonald"? [nmi] | |
| Posted by: | LovestheShow 09:27 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: I never bought that argument... - lordofspeech 08:31 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| :-))) | |
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| re: I never bought that argument... | |
| Posted by: | Maguire75 09:01 am EDT 03/31/14 |
| In reply to: | re: I never bought that argument... - lordofspeech 08:31 am EDT 03/31/14 |
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| Possibly- although it does seem pretty clear from the novella that Sally has no talent, but that her lack of awareness of it is part of her mystique. | |
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