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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: perfectlyfrank 12:37 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - Rangerette 01:28 am EDT 03/31/14

It's simply an excuse to cast a "name" without regard to vocal talent. If the creators truly wanted bad singers in the role, they would have limited the number of songs Sally has to sing.

There are plenty of good singers who wind up singing in lousy clubs. It's a tough business. Even a brilliant singing Sally could wind up in a lousy club.

Why doesn't anybody wonder why an incredibly dynamic M.C. is working in that same lousy club in Berlin? Shouldn't the MC be bad too?

Give me a musical where the actors sing. Well. I can suspend my disbelief enough to fill in the rest of the story.

I perfectly accepted Liza as Sallyin the film. She certainly might not have made it in a better club for many other reasons than her voice - she was quirky, not pretty, those are enough reasons why she may not have been able to land a job elsewhere. But damn, it was good to hear Liza belt out those tremendous numbers rather than have some tone deaf actress "ACT" her way through the role.

If I wanted a non-singing Sally, I'd go see I AM A CAMERA not CABARET.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: AlanScott 06:14 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 12:37 pm EDT 03/31/14

"Why doesn't anybody wonder why an incredibly dynamic M.C. is working in that same lousy club in Berlin? Shouldn't the MC be bad too?"

I've seen Grey in the film and in the 1987 revival, and I saw Cumming when the Roundabout production was new, and I always felt that the Emcee was meant to be a third-rate performer. However dynamic and talented those men may be, they played the character as a third-rate performer.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: PlayWiz 06:40 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - AlanScott 06:14 pm EDT 03/31/14

Harold Prince said he had a certain performer in mind when the Emcee role was created who was someone he had seen in Germany I believe. Joel Grey I believe when it came time to actually creating that character recalled some very embarrassingly bad Borsht Belt comic he had seen perform--sort of the type that radiates "flop sweat". However Prince and Grey had it in their minds, it pretty much needed to be suggested rather than totally realized in the musical telling; otherwise, the performance would have suffered. Grey's brilliance was giving a fantastic performance while suggesting a weird, eccentric sexually-charged Bacchus/Pied Piper who was fun to watch but was leading the audience down a very dangerous road.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: scoot1er 03:38 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 12:37 pm EDT 03/31/14

"It's simply an excuse to cast a "name" without regard to vocal talent." You may recall that the original production cast Jill Haworth who was not a name, nor were her replacements. So, the fact that it is an excuse to cast name actors doesn't really hold water. Of course, those were the days when producers relied less on names than today. But, the original concept had nothing to do with "name" actors and much to do with Sally who was a second-rate talent in a crummy club.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 01:45 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 12:37 pm EDT 03/31/14

Give me a musical where the actors sing. Well. I can suspend my disbelief enough to fill in the rest of the story.

Whereas give me a performer who can act the hell out of a role, and I'll forgive the less-than-perfect singing. Chacun à son goût.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: PlayWiz 05:27 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - MockingbirdGirl 01:45 pm EDT 03/31/14

I'll take an actor who can act the hell out of a role and sound like the Broadway equivalent of Enrico Caruso or Rosa Ponselle at the same time, thank you.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: enoch10 05:36 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - PlayWiz 05:27 pm EDT 03/31/14

you want a sally bowles who sounds like enrico caruso? why?


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: PlayWiz 05:38 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - enoch10 05:36 pm EDT 03/31/14

I said the Broadway equivalent - in style that is -- ok, so Mary Martin perhaps or Dolores Gray.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: enoch10 05:54 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - PlayWiz 05:38 pm EDT 03/31/14

i love dolores gray.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: perfectlyfrank 02:24 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - MockingbirdGirl 01:45 pm EDT 03/31/14

Why not then just see the play?

I agree that I want the role to be well acted too but at $150+ a ticket, I expect a good singer, dancer AND actor in every role.

Of course, certain roles aren't necessarily written for a strong voices. I'm fine with a well acted and not too beautifully sung Henry Higgins. But would I want an Eliza who can act like Judi Dench but sing like Elaine Stritch? No thank you.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: enoch10 05:24 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 02:24 pm EDT 03/31/14

for $150 you should expect a musical correctly cast. she isn't supposed to be a painfully bad singer just one likely to be performing in a place like that during a time like that.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 02:39 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 02:24 pm EDT 03/31/14

Why not then just see the play?... I'm fine with a well acted and not too beautifully sung Henry Higgins. But would I want an Eliza who can act like Judi Dench but sing like Elaine Stritch? No thank you.

Ah, creating hybrids now, are we? What about an Eliza who can act like Judi Dench and sing like Judi Dench? What about a Phyllis in Follies who can act like Diana Rigg but also sings like Diana Rigg? If it's not up to your standards, fine... but luckily, we don't all share them.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: MikeR 02:33 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 02:24 pm EDT 03/31/14

>Of course, certain roles aren't necessarily written for a strong voices

Like Sally Bowles. The people who created the show cast Jill Haworth in the role. If they thought the role required an amazing singer, they would've cast one.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: PlayWiz 05:36 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - MikeR 02:33 pm EDT 03/31/14

But Jill Haworth sounds wonderful on the recording. The original show didn't add "Maybe This Time" and "Mein Herr". It only had her singing "Don't Tell Mama", "Perfectly Marvelous" and the title song (and a reprise of it). It's not a great voice, but it is tuneful and even just by voice alone, captures the essence of this young English girl who is putting on sophisticated airs yet can't really hide the fact that she's really not who she is trying to be. Unfortunately, Walter Kerr's original review knocked Haworth's performance, but people who had seen the show said that he was dead wrong, and that she was actually superb!


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: bobby2 08:28 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - PlayWiz 05:36 pm EDT 03/31/14

and weren't replacements Anita Gilette and Penny Fuller good singers?


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: sf 04:57 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - MikeR 02:33 pm EDT 03/31/14

And then they cast Judi Dench in the London production - and again, it's not as if there was nobody else available.

It depends on the role. I don't particularly want to hear an Eliza Dolittle who can't hit the high notes - but pretty much anyone can sing the role of, say, Desirée Armfeldt, *provided they can act it too*. During this 'Cabaret' revival's original 75-year run on Broadway (I'm kidding, but it felt like it), some very strong singers indeed played Sally Bowles. Some very weak ones did as well; the role works either way. That wouldn't be true of every role in every show - we saw in the film of 'Les Mis' what happens when someone who hasn't much of a voice takes on the role of Javert, for example, and it wasn't pretty - but it's true of pretty much all the leads in 'Cabaret'.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: perfectlyfrank 05:57 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - sf 04:57 pm EDT 03/31/14

I agree with you. Certain roles lend themselves to actors who can sing rather than singers who can act. LES MIZ needs the latter in the leads. It is not the case with Desiree which was specifically written for a non-singing voice. Eliza, on the other hand, requires strong singing (or else why dubb Audrey Hepburn, right?)

Sally Bowles, at least in the original stage show, may have been able to get by with less singing chops but she does need to be able to sing. This revival adds songs written for Liza so this ups the ante vocally and thus the requirement for an actress who can sing.

Anyway, I'm sure there will be plenty of people willing to shell out big bucks to hear Williams in the role. Maybe she'll get a rave from the Times like Melanie Griffith did in CHICAGO for her musical artistry. I'll save my money and rent the film version instead.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: AlanScott 06:10 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 05:57 pm EDT 03/31/14

Yes, I do think that is a problem in this version. "Mein Herr" doesn't necessarily require a great voice, but you want a good voice for "Maybe This Time," which, IIRC, was not written for Minnelli but for Kaye Ballard.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: sf 06:06 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 05:57 pm EDT 03/31/14

Well, in this revival, last time around, the late, great Natasha Richardson *did* get raves from pretty much everybody, and she also got the additional songs from the movie, and as wonderful as she was (on CD, anyway - I didn't see her in this, although I did, when I was a teenager, see her in another musical), she didn't have much of a singing voice. The role - even the expanded role in this production - requires an actress who can put a number across. It does not necessarily require a great singing voice.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: perfectlyfrank 06:39 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - sf 06:06 pm EDT 03/31/14

True. But there's a big gap between an actress who can sing and has the ability to put over a song and one who is lost in a musical. We shall see if Williams manages to put over the role as well as Richardson did. I have my doubts that she will receive the same notices in the role.

Then again, this is simply not what I personally look for when going to see a musical. And as good as Richardson may have been in the role, I'll still prefer seeing and hearing Liza actually belt out "Maybe This Time" and the title song. Just as I prefer to hear Ethel Merman or Patti LuPone belt out the score of GYPSY over Tyne Daly. John Raitt over Michael Hayden in CAROUSEL.

The songs are why I go to musicals. Otherwise, I'm just as happy seeing a play. Badly sung musicals do nothing for me, no matter how wonderfully acted they may be. All I remember is the bad singing, not the great acting.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: enoch10 01:20 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 12:37 pm EDT 03/31/14

>> It's simply an excuse to cast a "name" without regard to vocal talent.


actually it is in the source material.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: perfectlyfrank 02:28 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - enoch10 01:20 pm EDT 03/31/14

There are many things in source materials that aren't taken so literally. And let's face it. If a more well known actress with a better voice wanted to play this role, the producers would somehow have overlooked the source material in this case too.


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Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: AlanScott 06:04 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 02:28 pm EDT 03/31/14

At least according to several accounts.

Kander and Ebb suggested Minnelli for the original production. Masteroff did not because she did not seem like she could play British. Prince vetoed the idea of casting of her because she did not seem like she could play British and because she sang too well.


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: Dalmaniac 09:33 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 06:04 pm EDT 03/31/14

"Prince vetoed the idea of casting of her because she did not seem like she could play British..."

Minnelli performed the title song from "Cabaret" in her nightclub act in the sixties long before playing Sally on screen. She sang it in a pretty good facsimile of an English accent.


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: AlanScott 12:24 am EDT 04/01/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - Dalmaniac 09:33 pm EDT 03/31/14

Interesting. Well, perhaps Prince and Masteroff were wrong.


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: Dalmaniac 02:23 am EDT 04/01/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 12:24 am EDT 04/01/14

"...perhaps Prince and Masteroff were wrong."

I think that may be what she was trying to prove! But she and Fosse obviously decided not to prove it on celluloid!

I went to the fist screening (10.00 am) of Cabaret at London't Prince Edward cinema. Stritch was sitting right behind us, shouting "Go, Liza!" at the screen throughout. Surreal.


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: enoch10 12:36 am EDT 04/02/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - Dalmaniac 02:23 am EDT 04/01/14

>> Stritch was sitting right behind us, shouting "Go, Liza!" at the screen throughout. Surreal.

this made my day.


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: Alcindoro 10:25 pm EDT 04/01/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - Dalmaniac 02:23 am EDT 04/01/14

"I went to the fist screening (10.00 am) of Cabaret at London't Prince Edward cinema."

Oh my. And here I thought that was a bit of business Mendes later inserted into the Donmar revival. So to speak.


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: AlanScott 04:04 am EDT 04/01/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - Dalmaniac 02:23 am EDT 04/01/14

Oh, my God! You could dine out on that forever. I once had an experience with Stritch right behind me in a theatre, but it wasn't quite as dramatic (though still kind of funny).


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: MikeR 11:27 am EDT 04/01/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 04:04 am EDT 04/01/14

She sat behind me (not directly - a couple rows behind and a couple seats over) at the NY Philharmonic Company. I tried to sneak a peek at her during Ladies Who Lunch... and she was gone.

Read into that whatever you will.


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: Dalmaniac 07:26 am EDT 04/01/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 04:04 am EDT 04/01/14

" I once had an experience with Stritch right behind me in a theatre...."

Do tell!

This was at the time Stritch was in residence at the Savoy and was causing a nuisance at The Piccadilly because Angela was doing Gypsy and not her. She definitely cleaned up her act after that... and more power to her, but we'd love to hear your story, Alan!


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: AlanScott 04:53 pm EDT 04/01/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - Dalmaniac 07:26 am EDT 04/01/14

It was at opening night of the Turner-Irwin Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? I had just passed the ticket taker and entered the Longacre and was going to turn to go up the stairs to the mezzanine when suddenly I heard an unmistakable voice behind me. I soon realized the owner of this voice was talking to an usher. This was said in her best little old lady voice. "Excuse me, I'm Elaine Stritch. I've got a seat down front but I'm a diabetic, and I was wondering if you could find me a seat in the back on an aisle in case I have to suddenly run downstairs to take a shot of insulin."

Now that I've heard MikeR's story, and considering that she'd been a miatinee Martha in the original production (and later did an excellent BBC radio production of the play), I'm wondering if she was thinking, "I may want to make a quick exit from this."


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: larry13 09:12 am EDT 04/01/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - Dalmaniac 07:26 am EDT 04/01/14

Did Stritch ever do GYPSY anywhere?


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: AlanScott 04:54 pm EDT 04/01/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - larry13 09:12 am EDT 04/01/14

No, she never played Rose, although she's done "Rose's Turn" in her cabaret act(s).


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: larry13 05:03 am EDT 04/02/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 04:54 pm EDT 04/01/14

Thanks Alan.
And, on the subject of Stritch--and a part I'm positive she never did--it was mentioned at the seminar preceding the MOST HAPPY FELLA dress rehearsal last night that Stritch very much wanted to do a part--presumably Cleo--for the opening of the original production. Not so surprising, she would not sing the high C that Loesser had written and asked for it to be transposed down slightly. Not so surprising, he refused and the rest is history.
Never knew about this. Jo Sullivan Loesser was present but I believe it was Laurence Maslon, interviewing her, who basically told this story.
Do you know anything about it?


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: AlanScott 06:56 pm EDT 04/02/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - larry13 05:03 am EDT 04/02/14

I think I've heard that Stritch was up for the role of Cleo, but I haven't heard anything more. I assume that even if Maslon said it was a high C, it wasn't. Cleo never sings a note anywhere near high C. It must have been the C an octave down from high C, which might have been a stretch for Stritch even then. B might have been about it for Stritch.


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: larry13 09:56 pm EDT 04/02/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 06:56 pm EDT 04/02/14

Thanks again, Alan. I also doubted Cleo sings anything like high C. There were several inaccuracies--putting it mildly--that were stated at that seminar.


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: Dalmaniac 10:23 am EDT 04/03/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - larry13 09:56 pm EDT 04/02/14

I think, nowadays, "a high C", has become shorthand for an extremely difficult note to hit, whatever the value of the actual note is.


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re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production

Posted by: bobby2 08:50 pm EDT 04/01/14
In reply to: re: Prince vetoed casting Minnelli in the original production - AlanScott 04:54 pm EDT 04/01/14

I saw Stritch at Other Desert Cities a few years ago. She was with Bernadette Peters. I was a couple of rows in front of them. At intermission Stritch had all sorts of questions on the plot which Bernadette explained.


and she was on the aisle


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: enoch10 05:20 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 02:28 pm EDT 03/31/14

>>There are many things in source materials that aren't taken so literally.

usually specific characters descriptions aren't one of them.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: perfectlyfrank 05:58 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - enoch10 05:20 pm EDT 03/31/14

Didn't seem to worry Fosse or the makers of the Oscar-winning film.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: enoch10 09:22 pm EDT 03/31/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - perfectlyfrank 05:58 pm EDT 03/31/14

>>Didn't seem to worry Fosse or the makers of the Oscar-winning film.

um, fosse was the maker of the oscar-winning film.


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re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer....

Posted by: perfectlyfrank 10:19 am EDT 04/01/14
In reply to: re: So if Sally Bowles isn't supposed to be a good singer.... - enoch10 09:22 pm EDT 03/31/14

I know. But he didn't do it alone. He directed the film. He didn't produce or write it. Thus, not the only creator of the film.


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