| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 12:17 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - Greg_M 11:46 am EDT 04/02/14 |
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| The film of HELLO DOLLY while not perfect, is certainly not the worst movie musical ever made. Yes, Streisand was far too young and not at all right for the character of Dolly Gallagher...Levi. But she and Gene Kelly (the film's director) did all that they could to make her work in the role. And there is no doubt that she sang that score to perfection. Still, what is lost is the sense of time passing by that an older actress could bring to the role. Even a physically aged 27-year old Streisand still projects an impulsivity of a 27 year old whereas Channing and, most especially, (the exceptional!) Shirley Booth, brought a more naturally well-worn and knowing charm to the role. As viewers, we see the life lived in their Dollys and underneath the meddling, we feel the ever presence of sorrow and a life lived. We also, importantly, see the significance of this return to life. Interesting thought about casting Ball. I actually could see it except for the fact that she would have to...um...SING. Still, despite an imperfectly cast leading lady (no fault of her own), I still enjoy watching Streisand in HELLO DOLLY. She undoubtedly has star power and vocally is unsurpassed in the role but still, I find myself returning to the Booth film and seeing what is missed in the musical film and what lies at the heart of the piece. I still would love to see Bernadette Peters do this role on Broadway. | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | PlayWiz 11:53 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - perfectlyfrank 12:17 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| "I still would love to see Bernadette Peters do this role on Broadway." Don't tell that to the poster "sf". :) | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 12:40 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - perfectlyfrank 12:17 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| I think Lucy could at that point (late 1960s) sing well enough to get through Hello, Dolly reasonably well. It's not a vocally challenging score (unlike Mame) and the character of Dolly, scheming and rather common, would have been well within her range. The various widowed "Lucy" characters she played in her 1960s TV series were basically variations on Dolly anyway. The question, though, would be whether at the point in time the film was made Ball would have been considered a bankable enough star to carry an extremely expensive production. She had a very nice success with Yours, Mine and Ours in 1968, but the budget for that picture was barely 10% what Dolly cost. It's really kind of hard to imagine which female star circa 1968-1969 would have been both age-suitable for the Dolly and a big enough box office name: Shirley MacLaine? Elizabeth Taylor? Debbie Reynolds? | |
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| Lucy auditioned for the role | |
| Posted by: | StageStruckLad 03:21 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - LegitOnce 12:40 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Well, sort of. Does anyone remember the episode of her TV show from that era where she dressed up as Dolly and tried to fool someone (was it a guard at an army base?) that she was playing Dolly in some production? Or was she maybe imitating Carol Channing? The details are a bit hazy, but I distinctly remember her parading around in Dolly's Harmonia Gardens outfit. | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | Greg_M 01:49 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - LegitOnce 12:40 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Shirley MacLaine? Elizabeth Taylor? Debbie Reynolds? Taylor couldn't sing or dace and was too young. Debbie Reynolds was also all wrong as was Shirley MacLaine (at 34 when the movie was filmed too young) Ball was the best choice and was apparently box-office (Which is why Warner Bros wanted her and her money for "Mame" Julie Andrews was also all wrong (though they considered her) Judy Holiday would have been a great choice if she were still alive - or even Judy Garland if she was able to do it (she was not) Then there was Ginger Rogers and Doris Day | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 02:04 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - Greg_M 01:49 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| With all due respect to Ginger Rogers, she couldn't sell a movie ticket in 1968. Doris Day would be an intriguing "maybe" but I don't know that she would have been willing to play Dolly's conniving. (Also, by 1968, her career as a movie star was on the wane: With Six You Get Eggroll and Where Were You When the Lights Went Out? didn't exactly set the box office on fire.) The point here is that there were very few bankable American women stars around in the late 1960s besides Streisand and a couple of others of her generation. A 35+ something star who could open a big road show movie? Even Taylor was struggling by then. | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | Greg_M 07:03 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - LegitOnce 02:04 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Going with a younger star was in keeping with the current trend...most over 40's were home watching tv and hardly went to films anymore, the big audience were younger people which is why Fox decided on Streisand (After realizing Channing wouldn't work very well on screen - as her film career has proven) The whole production has aged down right to Irene and Cornelius (now in the 20's). Filming began in Spring of 1968 long before "Funny Girl" opened. Streisand was cast in early 1967 - before "Funny Girl" began shooting. | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! (long) | |
| Posted by: | bicoastal 06:47 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - LegitOnce 02:04 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Not sure about Streisand being cast before FUNNY GIRL's release, but having been a movie-crazy thirteen year old when DOLLY came out, I remember Streisand's casting was a huge controversy at the time. Everyone thought she was too young and that Channing (who had earned an Oscar nomination just two years earlier) should have gotten the part. But Streisand was huge news at the time and without a doubt one of the few--if only, by then--women who were bankable. Julie Andrews had been scarred by STAR!, Doris Day had been blamed for the failure of JUMBO (and indeed her film career was on the wane due to bad choices), Shirley MacLaine was working on SWEET CHARITY (age-appropriate for her but a big flop on release), Elizabeth Taylor was not a musical star, Ginger Rogers wasn't even on a movie-goers' radar, Natalie Wood was still a star but obviously not right (and barely older than Streisand), Shirley Jones was too young and pursuing serious roles, Debbie Reynolds (who might have been good) was losing her audience. Singing aside, Lucy might have pulled it off based on how big a success YOURS, MINE AND OURS was, but at a time when tons of young stars were coming up, it makes sense that the studio went with Streisand. Also remember that 20th Century Fox paid a record sum for the rights to Dolly! and had both succeeded and failed with big-budget musicals in the recent past. While they correctly identified Streisand as a potential box-office champ (and cast Walter Matthau, who was a huge star at the time), IMHO virtually every other decision they made was wrong. There couldn't have been less charm or chemistry between Marianne McAndrew (whose feature career was very short-lived) and Michael Crawford (who I still find hard to watch) and the whole move felt labored and wheezing, even to a 13-year-old. The movie performed well at the time of its release but not well enough to make its money back, so it was considered a flop (and the critical reaction did not help its reputation). | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! (long) | |
| Posted by: | pierce 05:43 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! (long) - bicoastal 06:47 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Julie Andrews hadn't been scarred by Star! when Hello, Dolly! was being cast; when Streisand was announced for the lead role, Andrews was still riding high with the success of Thoroughly Modern Millie (she was named the top box office star for 1967). The doomed Gertrude Lawrence biography wasn't even released in the States until after Dolly! had completed filming. And while Billy Rose's Jumbo was indeed a box office disappointment when released in 1962, Doris Day was still named the top box office star of the year thanks to the smash hit That Touch Of Mink (she was also the top box office star for 1963 and 1964 as well). But there's no question her box office pull had dwindled by the time Dolly! was being cast. With Six You Get Eggroll was actually profitable and one of her top ten box office hits, but it wasn't released until after Streisand was signed to play Dolly. Dolly! producer Ernest Lehman initially thought Carol Channing should be cast in the title role, but he changed his mind after seeing Thoroughly Modern Millie. The name most often associated with the project (when it was in development) was Elizabeth Taylor. You're right that there was a backlash when Streisand's casting was announced, but it subsided after Funny Girl was released; after that, people wanted to see what she could do with the part. Dolly! was the fifth highest-grossing film of the year, but (as you stated) that wasn't enough to cover its cost. And the critical reception wasn't as uniformly negative as some have stated; reviews were mixed in New York (the Daily News gave it 4 stars and Pauline Kael recommended the film in the New Yorker) and uniformly positive in Los Angeles. Notices across the country were mixed to positive, and most critics tended to be kinder than they were in New York. | |
| Link | Box Office Champions 1932-2011 |
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| Streisand being cast as Dolly was announced in May 1967 | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 07:04 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! (long) - bicoastal 06:47 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| And I think that filming of Hello, Dolly! may have been completed before Funny Girl was released, although I'm not positive (and don't feel like searching for the answer to be sure). | |
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| re: Streisand being cast as Dolly was announced in May 1967 | |
| Posted by: | bicoastal 07:38 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | Streisand being cast as Dolly was announced in May 1967 - AlanScott 07:04 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Here's a ton of production details from the Barbra Streisand Archives site. Filming on DOLLY! started in April, 1968, was completed in July. FUNNY GIRL opened in September, 1968, looks to have finished shooting about the end of 1967. | |
| Link | http://barbra-archives.com/films/hello_dolly_streisand.html |
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| Thanks for the link (nm) | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 02:47 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Streisand being cast as Dolly was announced in May 1967 - bicoastal 07:38 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| nm | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | ashleylm 05:53 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - LegitOnce 02:04 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| he point here is that there were very few bankable American women stars around in the late 1960s besides Streisand and a couple of others I think Streisand was cast before Funny Girl (the movie) opened, so she was hardly bankable, she was just talented and celebrated. | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | Zelgo 12:44 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - LegitOnce 12:40 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| cue Marni Nixon | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 12:34 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - perfectlyfrank 12:17 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| "But she and Gene Kelly (the film's director) did all that they could to make her work in the role. And there is no doubt that she sang that score to perfection." I don't think there's any evidence that whatever direction Gene Kelly may have provided had any effect on Streisand's performance in the film. Quite the opposite, according to reports. | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 03:41 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - Michael_Portantiere 12:34 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Unlike the stage, film directors (and editors) have far more control on how a performance comes off. Although Streisand and Kelly reportedly did not get on together, many a disagreement can help fuel a performance. In the end, Kelly was the director and a 20-something Streisand did not yet have the power or goodwill that Kelly had at the time. As this was only her second film, Streisand still didn't call the shots. | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 11:31 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - perfectlyfrank 03:41 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| "In the end, Kelly was the director and a 20-something Streisand did not yet have the power or goodwill that Kelly had at the time. As this was only her second film, Streisand still didn't call the shots." According to everything I've read, including some quotes from that time that are included in the newish book ROAD SHOW, that's simply not true. Kelly's only notable successes as a director were in collaboration with Stanley Donen, and Kelly is considered by many to have been over his head and out of his league when directing FLOWER DRUM SONG on stage and HELLO, DOLLY! on film. "Unlike the stage, film directors (and editors) have far more control on how a performance comes off." True in general, and in terms of editing, etc. But again, I highly doubt that Streisand's acting in the role of Dolly was influenced at all by Kelly. | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 12:27 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - perfectlyfrank 12:17 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Regarding Ball, I agree that the singing would've been problematic, but lots of ladies have played the role, some better singers than others. I think the bigger problems would've been Ball having the stamina to do eight performances a week, something she stuggled with in WILDCAT, as well as her possibly not trusting the director or the material and turning Mrs. Levi into another variation on her television "Lucy" character. | |
| Link | Jere-Rigged |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 12:32 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - JereNYC 12:27 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Oh, I wasn't thinking Ball doing the role on stage. I was thinking the film version. | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 12:46 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - perfectlyfrank 12:32 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Arguably if Lucy had held out (i.e., turned down WIldcat) and had been available when the casting for Dolly started, I think she would have been a front-runner: a very strong box office name with an obvious flair for comedy, and age-appropriate. Dolly isn't (or doesn't have to be) a strenuous role, and with better material she wouldn't have had to work so hard to get an audience response. For a film version, I would see no obstacles for Ball besides bankability for a $25 million road show film | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | Dalmaniac 06:54 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - LegitOnce 12:46 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Having seen Carole Cook, herself a read-headed protegée of Lucille Ball, as the second ever Dolly in "Hello, Dolly!", I have to say that I always wished Lucille Ball had played the role in the movie. I also pictured her teamed with Jack Benny (they had shared several television episodes). He was very much the miser that Horace was meant to be and would have played off Lucy very well. (He became ill around this time so it wouldn't have played out the way I magined it!). There was always talk about Jack playing Dolly himself on Broadway, in drag, but I tend to think this was publicity talk. Danny la Rue's turn as Dolly was a total disaster. | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 09:43 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - Dalmaniac 06:54 am EDT 04/03/14 |
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| My first guess at a Lucy Vandergelder would be Bob Hope. | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | Dalmaniac 09:59 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - LegitOnce 09:43 am EDT 04/03/14 |
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| "My first guess at a Lucy Vandergelder would be Bob Hope." I'll buy that too! | |
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| re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! | |
| Posted by: | Dalmaniac 10:10 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Barbra vs Carol in HELLO, DOLLY! - Dalmaniac 09:59 am EDT 04/03/14 |
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| Before I go to bed (it's 1.00 am in Sydney) I think I'll recant on approving Bob Hope as Vandergelder. I love him but I think his persona is too smart. Dolly needs to twist him around and I think Benny's established persona is deluded enough to be fair game for this "wonderful woman". Also, the dynamic set up in the various Lucy Show episodes iwth Lucy Carmichael and Jack echoes the Dolly/Horace relationship perfectly. | |
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