| Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | Zelgo 12:53 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| At 1984 Tonys, when LA CAGE AUX FOLLES went up against SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE, LA CAGE walked away with so many major awards, including Best Musical, Actor, Score, and Book. SUNDAY won for lighting and scenic design. Although I love the score to LA CAGE, The score to SUNDAY is a shimmering masterpiece IMHO. True, LA CAGE has has a more robust life, with a song etched into much of the country's minds. Historically, does anyone else see this as a Tony mistake? Was there some sort of SUNDAY backlash at the time? | |
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| This may be a revisionist view of history | |
| Posted by: | DistantDrumming 02:52 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - Zelgo 12:53 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| ...but when Herman was last on Theater Talk he was asked about this very moment and he insisted it had nothing to do with Sondheim. Rather, Herman says (and I'm paraphrasing because I can't get YT to load right now for some reason), in 1984, Herman felt like Broadway had passed him by and that he and his brand of big, old fashioned musical comedy was no longer in fashion and so he was thrilled that there was still a place for him at the table. In that same interview, he praised Sondheim's talent and called him a genius. Again, I know some people might think Herman be wearing his rose colored glasses when looking back at that period, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. | |
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| re: This may be a revisionist view of history | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 09:37 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | This may be a revisionist view of history - DistantDrumming 02:52 am EDT 04/03/14 |
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| I tend to believe him - I think it's a case of not realizing that what he said, in the heat of the moment, could also have implications he didn't intend. We're all capable of that, especially in emotional moments. I tend to think he was just being gratefully pro-Herman, and just not thinking that what he said could sound anti-Sondheim. ;-) | |
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| re: This may be a revisionist view of history | |
| Posted by: | Zelgo 10:36 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: This may be a revisionist view of history - Chromolume 09:37 am EDT 04/03/14 |
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| I was always baffled why that comment was considered an insult for Sondheim. Sondheim's music is very hummable. | |
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| re: This may be a revisionist view of history | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 09:33 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | This may be a revisionist view of history - DistantDrumming 02:52 am EDT 04/03/14 |
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| Apparently, Herman apologized to Sondheim soon after the show because Herman's comments were immediately taken by many people as a slam at Sondheim. But Herman has always said that he did not intend them that way (and I believe him). | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 02:27 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - Zelgo 12:53 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| I vividly remember the time and saw (and loved) both original shows. Whereas SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE is a brilliant work, you can't ignore the historical meaning of having a major HIT musical at the time that focused positively on a gay relationship. The show of LA CAGE itself was a juggernaut of popularity whereas like many Sondheim shows, SUNDAY was not necessarily embraced by the general public in quite the same way. As for the score, Jerry Herman hadn't had a hit score in many years so, like "Dolly", this was very much a triumphant return of a beloved composer, writing in the style that screamed old time BROADWAY! This was the kind of show that people left the theatre humming the songs upon first hearing. SUNDAY, as we all know, is beautifully crafted and there are moments of sheer brilliance (the title song is for me one of the greatest moments on stage.) But it was again a battle of heart over mind and the heart won. And it really wasn't much of a battle. Like many Sondheim scores and shows, it takes time and reflection to truly appreciate the work. It certainly was appreciated and it, of course, won the Pulitzer Prize for Drama. But momentum was definitely behind LA CAGE from the start. This is not necessarily a new phenomenon for Sondheim or for productions, in general. GYPSY lost out to THE SOUND OF MUSIC (and FIORELLO!) and WEST SIDE STORY lost to THE MUSIC MAN. All fine works of course but some shows take time to be fully appreciated. So, was this a "mistake"? Not really. It perfectly reflected the times and LA CAGE remains an enduring work, winning not just Best Musical for the original production but also for Best Revival - TWICE. Time has also been kind to SUNDAY. In the end, awards are fun but the true test of a great work is time. In this case, both LA CAGE and SUNDAY have earned their places in musical theatre history. | |
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| "the battle of heart and mind" | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 05:28 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - perfectlyfrank 02:27 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| It's funny to me that people think of SUNDAY as such a heady show for smart people... to me it is one of the most passionately heartfelt shows, by Sondheim or anyone, including La Cage. My heart goes through more in just "and for the hat" than in all of La Cage, not to mention so many other parts of the show. The show is all about heart. But La Cage wears its heart on its sleeve, and Sunday wear its heart under its sleeve and makes you wait for it to roll its sleeve up. | |
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| re: "the battle of heart and mind" | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 12:03 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | "the battle of heart and mind" - Chazwaza 05:28 am EDT 04/03/14 |
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| I do agree with you about SUNDAY. I find it to be one of Sondheim's most emotional and even romantic shows. I can't say it is more emotional for me than LA CAGE but it definitely is a passionate, heartfelt show. I do like the way you put it with one show wearing its heart on its sleeve and the other under it. Nicely put. | |
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| re: "the battle of heart and mind" | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 02:22 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: "the battle of heart and mind" - perfectlyfrank 12:03 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
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| Thanks! Also curious, besides I Am What I Am, what part of the show tugs on your heart in an actual emotional and impactful way? I think The Birdcage is far better than La Cage, and besides having some heart warming moments, it is just a great comedy but it doesn't make me cry or move or inspire me in any unique way. | |
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| re: "the battle of heart and mind" | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 03:37 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: "the battle of heart and mind" - Chazwaza 02:22 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
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| The moment where the son turns to Albin and sings the reprise of "Look Over There". Gets me every time. The realization of what a parent has sacrificed for the benefit of a child is pretty powerful stuff. Also, a gay man coming out and having nothing but negative images all around him witnessing two men singing an honest to goodness love song to each other is also pretty emotional. A love song like "Song on the Sand" was the stuff of fantasy back in 1983. Now we actually have gay marriage. The final images of two men in a longtime relationship walking into the sunset was pretty powerful stuff for a gay boy coming out. I imagine young gay men have far more things to look up to these days but back in the early 80s, this was simply not the case. I'm not saying that LA CAGE is a weep fest. It's not. It's a comedy. But the themes of unconditional love between parents and children and between two loving partners are universal themes that have been written about for centuries. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | pierce 02:57 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - perfectlyfrank 02:27 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Like Alan, I've never understood the claim that Sunday in the Park with George lacks "heart." I don't know how anyone can listen to songs like "Color and Light," "Finishing the Hat," "We Do Not Belong Together," "Beautiful," "Children and Art," "Lesson #8" "Move On" and the aforementioned "Sunday" and say they lack heart. But then, I could never understand claims (made by some) that Sondheim couldn't write "hummable" songs. Does he write songs that have simple-minded, derivative melodies? No, but that doesn't mean his music isn't hummable. I was out of the country when the 1984 Tony Awards were broadcast, but when I got back a friend of mine (who did watch the awards) seemed distressed by what she considered a disrespectful attitude toward Sunday. I got the impression she didn't like Jerry Herman's statement that the "simple, hummable show tune" was alive and well at the theater where La Cage was playing. Well, I didn't care for the statement myself when I finally watched a tape of the broadcast - not just because it came across as a dig at Sondheim, but also because it didn't show much generosity toward John Kander or David Shire, either. But ultimately, it didn't really matter to me. I thought Sunday in the Park with George was a masterpiece, and I couldn't have cared less whether anyone else shared that viewpoint. And as it turned out, I wasn't the only one who felt that way. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:42 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - perfectlyfrank 02:27 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| I agree with most of what you write, There was surely some feeling that Herman had been overlooked in recent times while Sondheim had been honored greatly, and so the desire to honor Herman out of personal affection may have been part of it. On the other hand, between 1970 and 1984 Herman had three new shows on Broadway, while Sondheim had seven. If you do more, you have more chances of success and more chances to win awards. As you say, many people wanted to honor a pro-gay show, the first hit musical to focus on gay leading characters. I know that at the time — and for some people still — Sondheim's work in general and Sunday perhaps in particular are intellectual works without much emotional pull, but I've always found Sondheim's shows — and his collaborators certainly have a lot to do with this — emotionally powerful experiences. I don't think I've ever cried at a Jerry Herman show, but I have many, many times at Sondheim shows. And I really never understand it much when people criticize a work of art for being intellectual rather than emotional. Every artist pours his feelings into his work. If a work doesn't hit someone emotionally, it doesn't mean that the work is lacking in emotion, whatever that means. How does an observer measure whether a work is emotional? It's a purely subjective judgment, which is fine, but people sometimes say it as if it's actually an objective judgment, something that is evident to everyone. Sunday in the Park With George has always evoked strong feelings in me, while La Cage has not. But I don't go around saying that Sunday is heart while La Cage is all mind. Just to clarify: I don't think that you're making this heart-mind distinction as something you feel, but rather as an explanation of what people felt at the time. I think you're right. People certainly said it. I just never got it. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 12:14 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - AlanScott 06:42 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Yes, I didn't mean to imply that I personally feel one is heart and one is head (although Sondheim's works are all very cerebral but I don't personally feel they lack heart). In the case of SUNDAY, it's a very heartfelt show. As Chazwaza said so well, LA CAGE wears its heart on its sleeve while SUNDAY wears it UNDER it's sleeve. Of the two shows, SUNDAY affected me more but I liked both shows and certainly understand why LA CAGE won the awards. For me, each show had two pivotal moments that brought a tear (there are more but for me, these were the two big moments): When Dot joins George for "Move On" (chills!) and when Jean-Michel apologizes to Albin in the reprise of "Look Over There". Years later I took my mother to see the LA CAGE revival and that same moment affected her, as I think it must all parents who often wait a lifetime for their children to realize the sacrifices their parents have made for them. So, for me, both shows evoke strong feelings. Then again, while it's fun to play the award game, most great shows don't need to compete. CHICAGO and A CHORUS LINE are great shows. GYPSY and THE SOUND OF MUSIC are classics. WEST SIDE STORY and THE MUSIC MAN are worthy of praise. And SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE and LA CAGE AUX FOLLES are both wonderful shows from two beloved composer-lyricists. It's all good. How lucky we are to have so many shows to love. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony / Tony vs Pulitzer Prizes for musicals | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 02:50 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - perfectlyfrank 12:14 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
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| So true. I am just glad that year both shows got important awards, La Cage with the Tony and Sunday with the Pulitzer. I think Sunday got the higher, rarer, and more important honor, and it was well deserved. Rarely in other years where great shows compete are both given their due with two such awards... (but maybe I'm in the minority in thinking that Carousel, Gypsy, West Side Story, Follies, Assassins and Caroline or Change all deserved to win the Pulitzer Prize... though I wouldn't give it to WSS over Long Days Journey which won that year... but I would have given it to: Gypsy over J.B. Carousel over Harvey Follies over the Effect of Gramma Rays... Assassins over The Piano Lesson Caroline over Anna in the Tropics. Of course none of these were even finalists as far as I can tell. Hell I'd also have given it to Hair over nothing (if it were eligible in 1968, i'm not sure), and to Into the Woods over Driving Miss Daisy. I'd also have given it to Grey Gardens over nothing (and over the 3 finalists of 2006, and I might have made Passing Strange a finalist). And I'd have given it to Violet in 1997 over nothing. And I would have found a way to give it to Cabaret over nothing, even though it's not "about" America. I also think I would have at least made The Scotsboro Boys a finalist, if not a winner over Next to Normal. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony / Tony vs Pulitzer Prizes for musicals | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 03:46 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony / Tony vs Pulitzer Prizes for musicals - Chazwaza 02:50 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
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| I agree that many musicals should have been awarded the Pulitzer Prize or at least been in contention. HAIR, like ASSASSINS, were probably too controversial at the time to give it such an award (although I would say that HAIR especially deserved it - there was no award for drama that year.) I do like that the Pulitzer can elect not to make an award on any given year. I think that keeps the standard higher than not. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony / Tony vs Pulitzer Prizes for musicals | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 04:36 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony / Tony vs Pulitzer Prizes for musicals - perfectlyfrank 03:46 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
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| It does keep the standard higher, but often they neglect to give it in years when there is at least one worthy play or musical... and sometimes when they do give it they do not choose one worthy over the other eligible selections that year. So I'm not sure they have really kept the standard high. And if any musicals were brilliant looks at American culture and the American experience, expressed through drama, it is Assassins and Hair. (i've certainly never seen the american dream so thoroughly and interestingly analyzed AND within the generally untold/unexplored parts of history as in Assassins, and the fact that they did it as a musical is all the more daring and apt) | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | mikem 07:25 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - AlanScott 06:42 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| I didn't realize until now that Sondheim had 7 new musicals on Broadway in 15 years. While there are several earlier composers who had that kind of output, nowadays we're lucky if someone has 3 new Broadway musicals in 15 years. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 07:10 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - AlanScott 06:42 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| >> And I really never understand it much when people criticize a work of art for being intellectual rather than emotional. we're americans. as a nation we're descended from puritans. we don't trust intellectuals. of course puritans weren't all that keen on emotions either but i guess there's a lesser of two evils thought process at work. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | RonAnnArbor 05:33 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - perfectlyfrank 02:27 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| This is perfectly written -- its a reflection not only of the scores on Broadway at the time, but also the general zeitgeist. I vividly remember leaving La Cage and thinking what a hokey show and getting the cast album the day it came out... I also remember leaving Sunday thinking, what an artsty show, I liked that song she sings when she is breaking up with him...though I do listen to the album frequently. Quite frankly, even today, I perk up and listen to La Cage songs when I hear them on SiriusXM or Pandora, and Sunday songs sort of pass by without thinking too much about them.... | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 12:58 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - RonAnnArbor 05:33 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| With some exceptions (most notably "Look Over There" and "The best Of Times") I tend to think the score is not at all Herman's best. A lot of the songs are serviceable and do their job, but they're not as compelling or exciting to me as the songs in Dolly, for instance. And some of them, IMO, just fall way short in terms of craft - I find "Mascara" and "Masculinity" to be sloppy writing at best, and that horrid "Cocktail Counterpoint" should have been thrown out from the start. And I think "I Am What I Am" is better than the sum of its parts - it's a stirring anthem that was very exciting for its time, but some of the lyrics just don't sit on the music very well, and there are even moments in the orchestration that I find annoying and odd. So yes, for me, especially as a young gay male (in college at the time), the zeitgeist helped the show a great deal - I was excited to see a show that dealt so openly with gay relationships - but the material didn't really live up, at least to me. And Fierstein's overly campy book (I find the Cagelles intolerable and rather embarrassing, for instance) didn't help. If I'm in the mood to listen to Sondheim, I might very well turn to Sunday, among other scores. If I'm in the mood to listen to Herman, it's rarely going to be anything from La Cage, when many of his earlier scores are just simply so much better crafted. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 12:23 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - Chromolume 12:58 am EDT 04/03/14 |
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| Oh, I disagree. While Mascara and espcially "Masculinity" aren't my favorite, songs like "Song on the Sand" and the title song work for me. I think "I Am What I Am" took on a life of its own as an anthem but what I liked best about that number is how it was previously used in the show as "We Are What We Are". The juxtaposition works for me. I happen to like "Cocktail Counterpoint" but perhaps that has as much to do with the staging as the song itself. Then again, I could say the same for "The Day Off" or "It's Hot in Here" in SUNDAY. Some songs are simply meant to work within the confines of the show while others ("The Best of Times", "Putting it Together") can work equally well outside the show. As for scores, both composers have written stronger scores - Sondheim's COMPANY and SWEENEY TODD are more "go to" Sondheim scores for me. HELLO DOLLY and "MACK AND MABEL" are Herman go to scores. But that doesn't mean SUNDAY and LA CAGE aren't strong scores for both composers. I guess in my world, I don't need to prefer one over the other. I enjoy them both and listen to them depending on my mood. | |
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| "Cocktail Counterpoint" | |
| Posted by: | BrianJ 02:18 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - perfectlyfrank 12:23 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
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| I like LA CAGE a lot - I think I'm definitely above the average LA CAGE-liking-level of people on this board. I think "I Am What I Am" and "Song on the Sand" are stupendous songs, the title song is great and "The Best of Times" is very good, and I like "A Little More Mascara" just fine. However, I must agree with Chromolume here that "Cocktail Counterpoint" is a complete and utter piece of shit!! (Not that you're not entitled to your opinion, perfectlyfrank.) | |
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| re: "Cocktail Counterpoint" | |
| Posted by: | perfectlyfrank 03:48 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | "Cocktail Counterpoint" - BrianJ 02:18 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
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| Again, I did not say that Cocktail Counterpoint is a great song. I said it works fine within the show and that may have to more to do with the staging and the story itself - the bit with the dishes always makes me laugh. | |
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| re: "Cocktail Counterpoint" | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 05:20 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: "Cocktail Counterpoint" - perfectlyfrank 03:48 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
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| the bit with the dishes always makes me laugh. It's funny the first time. When she has to keep repeating it, not so much. | |
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| re: "Cocktail Counterpoint" | |
| Posted by: | bradmurf 07:40 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: "Cocktail Counterpoint" - Chromolume 05:20 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
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| "Cocktail Counterpoint" reminds me of the Pines. I prefer the Grove, where this song would be called "Drinks." | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 12:58 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - perfectlyfrank 12:23 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
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| I confess I totally forgot about "Song On The Sand" - oops - yes, that is a very fine song. ;-) | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | mattyp4 02:13 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - Zelgo 12:53 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| I like La Cage better than Sunday. To each his own! | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 02:40 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - mattyp4 02:13 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| I love the score to "La Cage". I do not like the score to "Sunday...". | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | Singapore/Fling 01:50 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - Zelgo 12:53 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Well, the Tonys don't really capture what will wind up being a historical judgment on a work, but rather the feeling at the time. There are many shows that win Tonys that don't go on to be great works. Aside from being a gay show, "La Cage" was an honest American musical, by a master of feel-good shows, at a time when Broadway was being taken over by British pop. And by all accounts, that first production had a joy about it that made it feel like the perfect show. Many people found - and still find - "Sunday" to be remote and cold, and even fans of it question the second act. Herman's statement along the lines of "The hummable musical is alive and well at the Palace!" was the perfect summation of what many people were feeling at the time about Sondheim and the musical in general. "La Cage" was a return to an old-fashioned, big-hearted musical that many people were missing. As it is, "La Cage" has stood the test of time, as has "Sunday", so I don't think we have a case where an "inferior" show as honored over a "superior" show. They are both great works, and that year, "La Cage" has more love. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | pierce 11:01 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - Singapore/Fling 01:50 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Many people found - and still find - "Sunday" to be remote and cold, and even fans of it question the second act. Certainly not this fan; I love BOTH acts of Sunday in the Park with George. And I know many fans who share my warm feelings about the show's second act. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | allineedisthegirl 01:43 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - Zelgo 12:53 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Same deal as TWO GENTLEMEN winning over FOLLIES. The Tony voters are what they are (a little reference to La Cage there!) db | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 01:05 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - Zelgo 12:53 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| I understand, in that moment in time, why La Cage won... a statement about embracing an openly gay show, and about embracing old fashioned musical comedies. And La Cage is a good score, but I don't think it's a great one. As you said, SUNDAY is a shimmering masterpiece... and I do think that it was a mistake not to give it the Tony. It's absolutely one of the best scores ever written for a musical, in my opinion. I think the way La Cage swept and basically shut Sunday out is a true show. If it had gone more like it went in 1988, when Phantom won Best Musical but Into the Woods won score and book, I think it would have been more fair. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | houselightsout 01:46 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - Chazwaza 01:05 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Totally, totally, totally agree!!! It sticks in my craw all these years later that Herman's "simple, hummable showtune[s]" (his words) were deemed "better" in comparison to Sondheim's most passionate (my words) score. I know there are many who think awards don't matter - that all they end up showing is the political side of the entertainment business, but I always want to believe they stand for merit and I reject the notion that La Cage is "better" than Sunday. But La Cage does have some terrific songs. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | Indavidzopinion 03:06 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - houselightsout 01:46 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Didn't Nancy Regan feature "The Best of Times Is Now" at one of the Regan Presidential Inaugurations? The song became an anthem for that whole part of the National Landscape. (I can just hear fingers tapping keys as people rush to completely argue the opposite of whatever this deliberately ambiguous comment actually means, because that's what happens here at ATC.) | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | OldTheaterGuy 05:34 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - Indavidzopinion 03:06 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| There was also the fact that at the time, reflected in both reviews and general comment, that SUNDAY had a brilliant first act, but fell apart in the second. LA CAGE was viewed as a much more balanced show. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | Zelgo 10:38 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - OldTheaterGuy 05:34 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Honestly, most of Sondheim's shows have brilliant first acts and meandering second acts. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 05:45 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - OldTheaterGuy 05:34 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| La Cage has a much worse Act Two than Sunday, and the first act ain't so great neither. ;) | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 06:09 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - AlanScott 05:45 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| true. but it struck me with the last revival how with time the second act of SUNDAY doesn't feel as jarring as it once did. and it once did. LA CAGE always felt more cohesive to me. in my old age i've begun a real re-evaluation of herman's work. what was so delightful as a kid and then turned so cheesy in adulthood i'm beginning to have a new and third kind of appreciation for. i think history, especially the history written in the future, is going to be kinder to jerry herman than contemporary discussions allow. is SUNDAY the superior work? for me, obviously yes but i'm beginning to think it's less than useful to compare jerry herman and stephen sondheim at all. herman got the tony and sondheim got the pulitzer. i'll call it a win/win, which sums up pretty well where the discussions i have in my head about these guys are. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 05:24 am EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - enoch10 06:09 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| I can't comment on how it did feel... I wasn't an adult to see it in 1988. But when I did see the production on video for the first time ever seeing or hearing it, it didn't feel imbalanced or jarring at all, and the first act was only made more brilliant by how the second act commented and paid off the first, not in comparison to it. But if it did feel that way then, that's why giving La Cage Best Musical would have been "fair"... but even if it's in a less traditionally structurally balanced (which I think it part of why it's so good), the score that is in it is undeniably brilliant (personally I'd actually use the word "genius" about the score and the concept) and at least undeniably better and more award worthy than La Cage. I think it would have been plenty to give La Cage Best Musical. But Best Score AND Best Book? Why, because it had some jokes? It's one of the most unique and original original book musicals ever written (perhaps even the most original), I think Lapine deserved a Tony for his work much much more than Fierstein did. But yes, at this point it's useless to compare... and Sondheim and Lapine getting the Pulitzer does make up for it. However it would be nice if Sunday, one of the best musicals ever written, were given even ONE Tony Award besides for it's physical design elements... whether we like it or not, what did or didn't win Tonys is and will stand as a record to the populace for what was seemingly the best stuff in any given year. | |
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| of course I meant 1984 (nm) | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 04:37 pm EDT 04/03/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - Chazwaza 05:24 am EDT 04/03/14 |
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| nm | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:30 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - enoch10 06:09 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again: The problem with Herman's work (for me) is not lack of talent or skill on Herman's part. The problem is the material he chose to work on and the collaborators with whom he worked. As for Sunday not feeling as cohesive when it was new, and the second act being jarring, well, that's a given. It's in the nature of the piece, it's part of its ambitions, although I will say that with replacements Harry Groener and Maryann Plunkett, the work seemed completely unified. Because of the way they played it, it felt unfinished at the end of act one, and the second act truly topped the first. But, yeah, I don't really care much that La Cage won the Tony that year. Sunday not only won the Pulitzer, it also easily won the Drama Critics Circle Award on the first ballot, with 10 votes, compared to four for La Cage and three for Oedipus at Colonus (and two abstentions). But in the end even if La Cage had won the Drama Critics Award, the Tony, and the Pulitzer, and even if Jerry Herman and Harvey Fierstein had been given a special Nobel Prize for their work, the shows would still be what they are. Awards brevis, ars longa. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 07:04 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - AlanScott 06:30 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| do you mean GOSPEL AT COLONUS? man, i had forgotten about that. i don't even remember it being up against those two. talk about being lost in the shuffle. i loved, loved, loved GOSPEL AT COLONUS so it's a pretty safe bet you hated it. i loved it so much i don't even want it revived. that was just a perfect little production. it was one of the most exhilarating (and exhausting) nights i've ever had in a theater. it was released on vhs and i had a copy. if it's available on dvd i'm going to order one today. now that you've brought it up i can't wait to see it again. how the hell did i end up in a conversation with you where i'm defending herman against sondheim??? but since we're there ... why do you have a problem with the source material for DOLLY or MAME or even LA CAGE? you think he's not the right fit? i can't imagine you have a problem with the source material themselves. if i'm reading "part of it's ambitions" right and you think the jarring of the second act of SUNDAY was intentional i think you're giving him too much of the benefit of the doubt. i can see distinct. i can even see jarring but again, while it's evened out over time the two acts felt weighted differently to me. not like a contrast and certainly not like a completion (though i don't think that was what he was going for) more like two one acts linked tenuously by subject. i felt that less with the last revival than ever before. and on another note - i bought tickets for AMERICA'S SWEETHEART. they weren't expensive but there were surprisingly few left if the seating chart accurately reflects whats been actually been sold. it doesn't matter since the theater is so small but if you're going you might not want to dawdle. | |
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| re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 07:28 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - enoch10 07:04 pm EDT 04/02/14 |
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| Yes, The Gospel at Colonus, my bad. It was when it was at BAM that it was in competition with Sunday and La Cage. And I did like it at BAM. Never saw it at the Lunt-Fontanne. It's not so much that I have a problem with the source material for most of Herman's shows, but still they are not ambitious in the way that Sondheim's choices were. (Of course, it's understood that many of the ideas for those shows did not originate with Sondheim.) In fact, at one Sondheim almost worked on a musical version of The Madwoman of Chaillot that Bob Fosse was to direct, with a book by S. N. Behrman, and the Lunts starring as the Countess and the Ragpicker. Musicalizing Auntie Mame in particular seems an unambitious idea, and the execution, however successful at the time, seems to mostly water down the source material. The Matchmaker Is a good piece of source material, but it's also an obvious one, which cannot be said of any of the shows on which Sondheim worked. More important, Herman's collaborators do not seem to have stimulated him in the way that Sondheim's collaborators stimulated him. So even when Herman was inspired enough on his own to produce his best work for Mack and Mabel, his collaborators seem to have been lost. I don't think that the second act of Sunday is exactly meant to be jarring but when you jump ahead 100 years and bring in a completely new group of characters for Act Two, the writers must know it's going to jar people, even if they also try to make it feel inevitable. I do think that the second act is meant to be a completion. Personally, I felt that much more when the original production had Groener and Plunkett as the leads, and at the Kennedy Center (even if there were things that I didn't much care for in the production), than at the Roundabout production, although I did see that's what they were going for. I completely forgot about America's Sweetheart. Thank you for the reminder. | |
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