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re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony

Posted by: AlanScott 06:30 pm EDT 04/02/14
In reply to: re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - enoch10 06:09 pm EDT 04/02/14

Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again: The problem with Herman's work (for me) is not lack of talent or skill on Herman's part. The problem is the material he chose to work on and the collaborators with whom he worked.

As for Sunday not feeling as cohesive when it was new, and the second act being jarring, well, that's a given. It's in the nature of the piece, it's part of its ambitions, although I will say that with replacements Harry Groener and Maryann Plunkett, the work seemed completely unified. Because of the way they played it, it felt unfinished at the end of act one, and the second act truly topped the first.

But, yeah, I don't really care much that La Cage won the Tony that year. Sunday not only won the Pulitzer, it also easily won the Drama Critics Circle Award on the first ballot, with 10 votes, compared to four for La Cage and three for Oedipus at Colonus (and two abstentions).

But in the end even if La Cage had won the Drama Critics Award, the Tony, and the Pulitzer, and even if Jerry Herman and Harvey Fierstein had been given a special Nobel Prize for their work, the shows would still be what they are. Awards brevis, ars longa.


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re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony

Posted by: enoch10 07:04 pm EDT 04/02/14
In reply to: re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - AlanScott 06:30 pm EDT 04/02/14

do you mean GOSPEL AT COLONUS?

man, i had forgotten about that. i don't even remember it being up against those two. talk about being lost in the shuffle.

i loved, loved, loved GOSPEL AT COLONUS so it's a pretty safe bet you hated it. i loved it so much i don't even want it revived. that was just a perfect little production. it was one of the most exhilarating (and exhausting) nights i've ever had in a theater. it was released on vhs and i had a copy. if it's available on dvd i'm going to order one today. now that you've brought it up i can't wait to see it again.

how the hell did i end up in a conversation with you where i'm defending herman against sondheim??? but since we're there ... why do you have a problem with the source material for DOLLY or MAME or even LA CAGE? you think he's not the right fit? i can't imagine you have a problem with the source material themselves.

if i'm reading "part of it's ambitions" right and you think the jarring of the second act of SUNDAY was intentional i think you're giving him too much of the benefit of the doubt. i can see distinct. i can even see jarring but again, while it's evened out over time the two acts felt weighted differently to me. not like a contrast and certainly not like a completion (though i don't think that was what he was going for) more like two one acts linked tenuously by subject.

i felt that less with the last revival than ever before.

and on another note - i bought tickets for AMERICA'S SWEETHEART. they weren't expensive but there were surprisingly few left if the seating chart accurately reflects whats been actually been sold. it doesn't matter since the theater is so small but if you're going you might not want to dawdle.


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re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony

Posted by: AlanScott 07:28 pm EDT 04/02/14
In reply to: re: Herman's LA CAGE Score Tony - enoch10 07:04 pm EDT 04/02/14

Yes, The Gospel at Colonus, my bad. It was when it was at BAM that it was in competition with Sunday and La Cage. And I did like it at BAM. Never saw it at the Lunt-Fontanne.

It's not so much that I have a problem with the source material for most of Herman's shows, but still they are not ambitious in the way that Sondheim's choices were. (Of course, it's understood that many of the ideas for those shows did not originate with Sondheim.) In fact, at one Sondheim almost worked on a musical version of The Madwoman of Chaillot that Bob Fosse was to direct, with a book by S. N. Behrman, and the Lunts starring as the Countess and the Ragpicker.

Musicalizing Auntie Mame in particular seems an unambitious idea, and the execution, however successful at the time, seems to mostly water down the source material.

The Matchmaker Is a good piece of source material, but it's also an obvious one, which cannot be said of any of the shows on which Sondheim worked.

More important, Herman's collaborators do not seem to have stimulated him in the way that Sondheim's collaborators stimulated him. So even when Herman was inspired enough on his own to produce his best work for Mack and Mabel, his collaborators seem to have been lost.

I don't think that the second act of Sunday is exactly meant to be jarring but when you jump ahead 100 years and bring in a completely new group of characters for Act Two, the writers must know it's going to jar people, even if they also try to make it feel inevitable.

I do think that the second act is meant to be a completion. Personally, I felt that much more when the original production had Groener and Plunkett as the leads, and at the Kennedy Center (even if there were things that I didn't much care for in the production), than at the Roundabout production, although I did see that's what they were going for.

I completely forgot about America's Sweetheart. Thank you for the reminder.


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