| All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Teacher64 08:41 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| I am not a HUGE fan of the stage version of INTO THE WOODS, but I do recognize its quality. And there have been so many people concerned about the song cuts that director Rob Marshall is making. Does anyone have a list of the songs that will not be included in the film version? There are some songs that would gut INTO THE WOODS if they were removed (particularly CHILDREN WILL LISTEN, NO ONE IS ALONE). Those songs are so intricately tied to the theme of the piece. They are not cutting those songs are they? I don't think we have too much to worry about. After all, didn't Marshall direct the film version of NINE? He didn't cut any major thematic numbers from that now, DID HE??? | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Greg_M 09:54 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Teacher64 08:41 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| When "Into the Woods" first opened the score wasn't always reviewed so favorable. I can't imagine a Disney audience of kiddies singing the songs from "ITW" or even following the lyrics. The story was better received and should work on film. At worse, even if many of the songs are cut - We still have the ORIGINAL CAST preserved on video to watch whenever we want. Too bad we don't have the original cast videos of "A Chorus Line" or "Annie" those films completely butchered their source material | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | lordofspeech 04:07 am EDT 08/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Greg_M 09:54 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| While I agree with you that the A CHORUS LINE film is a mess, the documentary EVERY LITTLE STEP managed to chronicle and capture all that WAS the show, even though limited to rare archival footage and the "talking with" anecdotes of Lee, McKechnie, etcetera. That film "brings it," as the children say. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 06:13 am EDT 08/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - lordofspeech 04:07 am EDT 08/16/14 |
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| And that documentary is wonderful... but still it's not a document of the whole actual show, like the way Into the Woods is (and Passion, Sunday, Sweeney, Cats, JCS, Joseph, etc). I almost wish they'd called it "A Chorus Line, the Documentary" so people who might be searching for ACL would find it just from the title. Every Little Step is a great title for it, but as the only existing semblance of the original show on DVD, it might be harder to find with that title. | |
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| Cut songs list | |
| Posted by: | FrenchDip 10:31 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
| In reply to: | All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Teacher64 08:41 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| Cinderella at the Grave I Guess This Is Goodbye Maybe They're Magic First Midnight Second Midnight Ever After So Happy Agony reprise No More (and the Witch's new song) This is based on the shooting script - things could have changed on set or in the editing room. | |
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| re: Cut songs list | |
| Posted by: | TheOtherOne 10:49 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
| In reply to: | Cut songs list - FrenchDip 10:31 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| No More? They've cut No More?! Am I crazy? I thought it was one of the show's true high points. | |
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| re: Cut songs list | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 01:14 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut songs list - TheOtherOne 10:49 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| I know. It's one of my favorite songs, but with no Mysterious Man (at least based on the leaked script from February), the song doesn't work. On the plus side, the show has always felt like it has two or three endings, and cutting "No More" (no matter how much I love it), helps fix that. One of the other minuses is that cutting it means the Baker has almost nothing to sing now. | |
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| re: Cut songs list | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 06:48 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut songs list - MikeR 01:14 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| I have to agree. It does seem to offer a pile on of learned lessons. Things halt then crank up again for the voiced and sung epiphanies. I will miss "No More" musically but perhaps not in the storytelling. | |
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| re: Cut songs list | |
| Posted by: | OnceMoreWithFeeling 04:52 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut songs list - Delvino 06:48 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| No More is a nice song. But it always stopped the show (in a bad way) for me. I don't see it translating well to film either. | |
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| re: Cut songs list | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 12:18 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut songs list - Delvino 06:48 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| I don't know... I can't really imagine ITW being as layered and emotionally resonant as it is without the father/son story and the mysterious man and the incredibly important "No More"... and the cutting of that makes me worry, as I have, that Rob Marshall doesn't actually understand the material he is directing. He seems to pick projects for the STYLE he thinks he can bring to them and ignores or doesn't understand or isn't capable of directing or maintain the SUBSTANCE. And it's funny, because it's the kind of thing (style without substance) that so many people seem to think musicals are, and why they dislike them... and here, Marshall chooses musicals with lots of substance and only directs for the style. He turns musicals that are examples to the contrary, and turns them into what people expect from a musical. | |
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| re: Cut songs list | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 01:23 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut songs list - Chazwaza 12:18 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Earlier you said that Rob Marshall wasn't making the film, but now you're laying all the blame for this cut at his feet. Lapine and Sondheim have been involved from the beginning. | |
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| re: Cut songs list | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 01:53 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut songs list - MikeR 01:23 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Meaning he isn't responsible for the film being made. He is still directing it. The point was that he isn't the reason it got made... someone (you, perhaps? I forget) was trying to give Marshall credit for making the movie made... and he doesn't deserve credit for that. Harvey Weinstein does. But once the movie is funded and he is the director, it is still going to be largely or solely his vision (certainly with ITW Disney is having their say in some ways, most especially what happens to Rapunzel). I also will put blame with Lapine, and to a lesser extent Sondheim (Lapine is writing/written the screenplay, not Sondhiem) if some of these things are true of the final movie and I think they lessen the show. But I also don't know what the contracts say, perhaps they sold the rights and have little to no actual control, and also perhaps Lapine got a contract to adapt the screenplay, but to the pleasure of the director and studio, but even when having to make changes that compromise the show they originally wrote he would rather be the one making them... all of which I understand, even if I don't like. This won't change the fact that it's Marshall's film of the musical (or Disney's film as directed by Marshall), and he will get the credit or blame if it's great or ruined... and if they've cut the Baker's story and the father/son stuff and the Mysterious Man and "No More", I'll never quite understand that or accept it, even if the movie is good anyway. I'll accept the movie on it's own terms, but presumably I'll always know it could have/should have had that in it. (I won't know how I'll feel till I see it, of course) | |
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| re: Cut songs list | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 02:18 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut songs list - Chazwaza 01:53 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| I see now why I was confused. You're equating "making the film" with "getting the film produced," while I'm equating "making the film" with "being in charge on set and directing it and responsible for the day to day activities of creating the film." | |
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| re: Cut songs list | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 10:06 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut songs list - MikeR 02:18 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Yes. But I think it's an important distinction when trying to give credit for the film having been made. (And in fact whether one makes a good movie out of it or not has nothing to do with the credit for getting the movie actually funded and produced.) | |
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| re: Cut songs list | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 01:05 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut songs list - Chazwaza 12:18 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Hmmm .... Actually, putting aside my comment about the multiple endings, I tend to agree with you about the removal of the Baker's backstory (at least its real time resolution). I wonder if his crisis has the needed weight without the story pausing to consider the emotional implications. Perhaps I've just negated my own post above. | |
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| re: Cut songs list | |
| Posted by: | TheOtherOne 08:36 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut songs list - Delvino 06:48 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Well, in all honesty, I have always thought of "Into The Woods" as a fine show but never as one of my favorites. Its score, though, is its greatest asset, and "No More" is a prime example of why. In that regard, its absence from the film is a shame. | |
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| SPOILER | |
| Posted by: | lordofspeech 04:15 am EDT 08/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut songs list - TheOtherOne 08:36 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| SPOILER: You never know. The Baker's Wife's death could be enough to trigger the transformation of the Baker and the rest of the characters. But so cd the Giantess. There were already so many huge, thematic turning points, including the Witch's, that it's likely to me that, in eliminating the mysterious old man, the story and its arc may gain in momentum and power. | |
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| The Mysterious Man | |
| Posted by: | CamMacFan 08:19 pm EDT 08/16/14 |
| In reply to: | SPOILER - lordofspeech 04:15 am EDT 08/16/14 |
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| They may not have actually eliminated him entirely. IMDB credits Simon Russell Beale as "The Baker's Father." He has said in an interview (I think it was with Graham Norton) that it was a very quick shoot for him and that he did not get to work with Meryl Streep | |
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| re: The Mysterious Man | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 09:56 pm EDT 08/16/14 |
| In reply to: | The Mysterious Man - CamMacFan 08:19 pm EDT 08/16/14 |
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| The early screenplay (so things could have changed by the time it was shot) had the Baker's Father only in flashbacks. | |
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| re: Cut songs list | |
| Posted by: | AnyaS 11:15 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut songs list - TheOtherOne 10:49 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| I was about to post the same. No More is my favorite song in the show. If this is true, a million depressions. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 10:30 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
| In reply to: | All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Teacher64 08:41 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| Everything everyone (myself included) has been saying about the ITW film falls into one of the following categories: statements based on a draft of the script, statements based on hearsay, and people just talking out of their asses. Here's an interview with Rob Marshall that was just posted today that addresses a lot of the stuff that's been said about the movie. | |
| Link | http://insidemovies.ew.com/2014/08/14/into-the-woods-rob-marshall/ |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | ashleylm 04:28 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - MikeR 10:30 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| I'm firmly in the camp that thinks you ought to deviate from your source material where it will make a better film. You can go too far (we've all seen films based on books that were so altered one wonders why they bothered to keep the title) but eliminating a song here or there is not the end of the world, and in many cases (e.g. "Ever After") probably make sense to lose. Songs are written for a number of reasons: to signal the end of an act, to give more for the star to do, to cover set changes, etc., none of which matter to a movie. The stage musical will still exist, and the film will be something different. Cabaret was much changed, and works extremely well as a film. Little Shop of Horrors altered its ending, and thank goodness or my kids would have been in tears last weekend. The Producers was very faithful to the source, and ended up meh. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 10:09 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - ashleylm 04:28 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Those are all fair points. I think only one applies to Into the Woods, which has a song clearly written to end Act 1. And yes, there are many musical film adaptations that are stronger as films because of deviations from the stage text or even order of events... and The Producers was meh at best... but not because it was too faithful to the material, but rather to the stage director's direction. You could point to plenty of great movie musicals that were incredibly faithful to counteract your Producers example. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 11:31 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chazwaza 10:09 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Those are all fair points. I think only one applies to Into the Woods, which has a song clearly written to end Act 1. Indeed. In fact, if you consider the process in reverse - if the property had been a film first, there most likely would have been no "Ever After" - the structure of the film wouldn't have wanted or needed it. But a stage adaptation of that film would have wanted a more definite ending to Act I - and perhaps a song like "Ever After" would have been written to accomplish that. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 11:55 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chromolume 11:31 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Though I am curious how they've done without "Ever After" which so perfectly sets up the seemingly ended "I wish" stories, before the "to be continued" that leads into things not ending with "happily ever after" at all. It's such an integral part of the concept of the show... in fact, I imagine one could have found a way to film it and make it work. But I'm curious to see what they do instead. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 12:37 am EDT 08/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chazwaza 11:55 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| I don;t know how they're doing it, but in my head, the fact that a bit of "So Happy" precedes "Ever After" in the show says to me that one could just segue to a modified version of "So Happy" - which really serves the same purpose as "Ever After" in terms of plot. Things that are covered in "Ever After" not in "So Happy" - for instance, the new beanstalk, the Witch lamenting her loss of power, etc, could all be worked into a modified "So Happy," or could be shown visually without having to be voiced in the song. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 09:01 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
| In reply to: | All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Teacher64 08:41 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| I'm sure you're joking about NINE... it doesn't even matter what he cut or kept, he ruined that movie (and the opinion anyone who only saw the movie has of the musical). Given that ITW is a much more beloved and known musical than Nine, and that Lapine wrote the screenplay, I think it's less worrisome than Nine in the first place. And I don't think anyone would make ITW a movie and cut "No One Is Alone"... however there will be cuts, I'm sure, that will upset and disappoint people, like myself, and those people will argue, rightly I imagine, why those songs were integral and meaningful to the musical and why the movie would probably have been better with them, or how stupid it was to cut them but not replace them with something else that didn't compromise the integrity of the show. (for example, I think it's public knowledge that the Agony reprise was cut, which I think is a terrible idea... and I know Rapunzel does not die in the movie, which I also think is a terrible idea and I SINCERELY hope it doesn't mean they cut or changed too much "Witch's Lament", one of the most emotional and beautiful parts of the score, and integral to the themes and meaning of the show). However, I have been told by a friend who is a huge fan of the show and who saw a test screening, that the version she saw was very good and legitimately faithful to the show. There have been changes but apparently nothing that upset her too much. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Teacher64 09:34 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chazwaza 09:01 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| Yes, I was joking about NINE. "And I don't think anyone would make ITW a movie and cut "No One Is Alone".." And yet, the same person who has directed ITW cut the song NINE from the movie NINE. When I first saw the musical NINE I was very young and I remember sitting there trying to figure out why it was called NINE. Then came the song NINE and its reprise in Act 2 (with that lyric, "You be 40 and I'll be ,,,,,,Nine." ) and suddenly I understood. But no one who sees the movie will ever understand why it is called NINE. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 10:02 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Teacher64 09:34 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| Hahaha, yes, agreed, and don't get me started on the film of NINE... I do not trust Rob Marshall as a film director of musicals as far as I can throw him, because he doesn't trust the audience and has proven it and destroyed what could have been a great movie with Nine, and skated by on Chicago. But luckily I think Sondheim and Lapine or more involved and more powerful than Maury Yeston, and like I said, Into the Woods and its songs are more known and beloved by the intended audience of the film version than Nine was, which makes me feel like it's safer... though of course, nothing is guaranteed. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | TGWW 11:01 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chazwaza 10:02 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| "Nine" could never be a great movie because it was never great to begin with. NO ONE was clamoring to make a movie out of it. Give Marshall credit for trying. Just remember Sondheim was also involved in "Sweeny Todd" and praised Helena Bonham Carter, on camera no less. Sorry to burst your bubble but "Into the Woods" isn't beloved either by anyone, except Sondheimites. The revival flopped, as did a free version in the park. The only reason Roundabout is doing it AGAIN is because they know they can get a very limited run sold. Once again, no one was jumping to make a movie in the 27 years since it premiered. Give Marshall credit for that too, or would you rather not have a film adaption at all? | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 10:43 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - TGWW 11:01 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| Bingo! You hit the nail right on the head. I've had this argument before - - "Into The Woods" is not beloved by any stretch of the imagination.....except by Sondheim fanatics. Your "average Joe" has absolutely no clue what "Into The Woods" is...no matter how much Sondheim fanatics believe otherwise. Movie musicals are a risky business....why make one of a show that isn't that well known? I saw the original "Nine" on Broadway years ago...never dreamed they'd make a film of it. They did.....it flopped. I saw the original "Into The Woods" on Broadway as well. A movie? Never thought it would happen. Fairy Tales are hot now..."Once Upon A Time" and "Grimm" on television, "Maleficent" and "Frozen" in the movies. That doesn't mean everything is fool-proof. "Jersey Boys" is a beloved show....been running for years and has music familiar to most people by a beloved singing group . Even with all of that history, the film failed. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I think the film will need a lot of luck to succeed. Here's hoping.... (BTW, I like "Into The Woods". It's one of the few Sondheim shows I enjoy). | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 12:26 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Scott6263 10:43 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Who is this "average Joe" and what musicals do you think he has heard of? Guys and Dolls? Fiddler? Hello Dolly? etc... yes, almost everyone has heard of the musicals from the Golden Age, from 40-60 years ago, that have had decades to become classics, performed everywhere, made into movies, etc etc. The "average Joe" doesn't like or see musicals anyway... But you know, the "average Joe" often has kids... and those kids, living in America, are very likely to perform or have a friend performing in, or just going to see at their school, someday a production of Into the Woods. So more than more musicals written after 1970, "Average Joe" might have heard of Into the Woods. Jersey Boys is NOT a beloved show. Where are you getting this definition of "beloved"? A show can't be beloved until it's closed on Broadway and been performed elsewhere... and had a popular cast album, and had new generations find the show, and perform it all over... and been revived in several major productions. etc. Jersey Boys is an excellent juxbox musical that will probably have little life outside of it's hit Broadway production and flopped movie... but if it does surprise me and in 10-20 years it has a notable life outside of those two things, then I'd happily reconsider it as "beloved". And also, it doesn't not have musical familiar to "most people"... to an older crowd, yes... but to young people, even if they'd heard the songs (which they very well might have), they don't know who Franki Valli and the Four Seasons are and they certainly don't know what the title "Jersey Boys" indicated. And on top of that, the movie had no stars. Even for a popular musical, big budget hollywood movies these days almost always need stars for them to make money at the box office. Either that, or the interest of young ticket buyers. Jersey Boys had neither. Into the Woods has both, in theory. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 12:46 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chazwaza 12:26 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| I have had this argument with you before and I will not do so again. Think what you want. If you wish to believe that "ITW" is a beloved classic, then go ahead. Meanwhile, the countless people who don't know "ITW" (let alone think it's beloved) will believe otherwise. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 01:35 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Scott6263 12:46 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| I love how you put ITW in quotes as if to mock it... bizarre. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 01:38 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chazwaza 01:35 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Mock it? You are waaaay off base. It's in quotes because that's what one does when one writes the proper name...."Into The Woods", "Grease", "The Sound of Music"...being a would-be writer, you should know that. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 01:58 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Scott6263 01:38 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| I'm not a "would-be" writer, I am a writer. A professional writer (though I often press Post without re-reading here, so if you have trouble with that I'd understand... but this isn't a professional setting, I treat it more like conversation for better or worse). Part of the point of a casual acronym like ITW is to make it faster to type... adding quotes on each side as if you are writing the proper title out seems to slightly defeat the purpose. I hope you can see why, given the above assumption, putting it in quotes can read as sarcastic or mocking. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 02:14 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chazwaza 01:58 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| I apologize. You are a writer. That's cool. Again, I was not not mocking anything. I was merely "quotationing" the acronym. That's all. No biggie. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 10:11 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Scott6263 02:14 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| No worries! | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 11:43 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Scott6263 10:43 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| "Into The Woods" is not beloved by any stretch of the imagination.....except by Sondheim fanatics. Your "average Joe" has absolutely no clue what "Into The Woods" is...no matter how much Sondheim fanatics believe otherwise. One would think the world was made up of only two kinds of people - "average joes" and "Sondheim fanatics" - and no one else. I would wager that most "average Joes" have absolutely no clue about most musicals, Sondheim or not, and that the idea of movies based on musicals is something not generally on their radar, period. Your comments on the Jersey Boys film bear that out. WE as people interested in theatre may view that show as "beloved," but I'm sure there are plenty of so-called "average Joes" out there WHO HAVE NEVER HEARD OF IT, and who had no reference point to the film. I think there is a middle ground of people who have enough interest in the arts to appreciate musicals and musical films, but who may not identify as diehard Sondheim fans. And I would think that many of them would be interested in the film. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 11:53 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chromolume 11:43 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Go out into the street and ask folks if they ever heard of "The Sound of Music", "Grease" or "West Side Story". I guarantee most will say yes. Now ask the same question about "Into The Woods". I guarantee no. Something that is not well-known cannot be beloved...it can be liked or loved by those who do. Yes, many people do not know "Jersey Boys"...I'd wager even less know "ITW". I adore "Flower Drum Song". Hit Broadway show....Rodgers and Hammerstein....mildly successful film...beloved? No way. I might love it....but it's not beloved. I do agree with you that there is a middle ground. I'm not so sure it applies to "ITW". | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 12:07 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Scott6263 11:53 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| The Sound of Music - 1959/1965 Grease - 1972/1978 West Side Story - 1957/1961 I think that speaks for itself. Number one, that was a long time ago for all 3 shows/films, and musicals aren't in the public consciousness nearly as much as they were then. Number two, these films (and shows) have all stood the test of time, and they are considered classics now, which they weren't then. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 12:14 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chromolume 12:07 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| "ITW" is 27 years old. That's a long time. Still not known by the masses. Doubtful "ITW" will ever be considered a classic like those. Whatever happens with the film (and I do hope it succeeds), it won't do any more for it's reputation than the film versions of "Sweeney Todd", "Nine" or "Jersey Boys" did for those shows. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 12:39 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Scott6263 12:14 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| But IT IS KNOWN BY MANY MASSES. Perhaps not "THE masses" that you seem to insist include all people. But name be 10 musicals written after 1970 that are known to the masses. -Les Miserables, perhaps the most popular musical ever written, ran forever, and currently running and recently made into a big movie -Phantom of the Opera... same -Cats, because of bad reputation and long long run on Broadway -Miss Saigon maybe... ...and... what? -Wicked... that might be it, and Wicked isn't something everyone's heard of for good reason either. Maybe The Producers. And Book of Mormon maybe. Monster monster hits, and 4 of the 7 I just listed are currently running. Into the Woods is one of the few that people do actually know the name of from the past 30 years who didn't see it on Broadway. Also, Sound of Music, West Side Story, and Grease have not only been around for many more decades, they are also three of the most popular musicals and movie musicals OF ALL TIME. Of course 99% of the population is going to have heard of them. The fact that you are here comparing Into the Woods to The Flower Drum Song as your argument makes me really think you're just unwilling to see the reality. No one is claiming Into the Woods is as beloved or popular as the obvious ones you listed. Nothing is. To be "beloved" you don't have to be at the level of Sound of Music and WSS or you're just not beloved. I'm not trying to argue that Assassins is "beloved"... but for a show that didn't even run 2 years originally, and a show that had no stars and no movie for the last 27 years, it is still one of the most performed and known of shows of the last 30 years, easily. If you don't think love of the show isn't part of that, then I think you're just refusing to acknowledge reality or you are arguing of semantics. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 12:47 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chazwaza 12:39 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| And you are a pain in the a-s. See my above reply to you, Chazwaza. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 10:44 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Scott6263 12:47 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| And you are a pain in the a-s ...and this is the immature way people respond when they really don't have a valid point to make and just can't deal with the fact that someone disagrees with them for solid reasons. Debate is healthy. Calling someone names because they don't agree with your opinions is cowardly and troll-like. It would have been nice if this could have been a debate. You just made it clear you're not interested in discussion, just in being negative. Too bad. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 09:24 am EDT 08/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chromolume 10:44 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| I was having a debate with you. He chimed in as always with his snarky, nasty comments. You're defending him? Typical. I was doing fine with you. I guess you're just as much of a PITA as he is. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 04:30 pm EDT 08/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Scott6263 09:24 am EDT 08/16/14 |
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| I'm not sure I've ever read a more childish post on this board, which is saying a lot. You don't get to decide you're having a private debate in a public forum in the middle of a thread everyone would be interested, and perhaps knowledgable, about. And nothing I said was snarky and certainly not nasty, not compared to what you write. I'm sorry you can't handle someone disagreeing with you and providing solid reasons for that. If you're so shaken by such things perhaps a public theater forum is not the healthiest place for you. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 09:18 am EDT 08/17/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chazwaza 04:30 pm EDT 08/16/14 |
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| Once again, you prove my point. You are constantly snarky and childish with your email responses to anything re Sondheim. You do this repeatedly. I refuse to partake in one of your many so-called "solid points" when all you do is offer opinion as if it's fact and expect everyone to accept it. I would love nothing more than to have a healthy debate....but it's impossible with Sondheimites who have a "holier than thou" attitude in their approach. You should start your own "Sondheim" chat room so everyone agrees with you...that way, no fuss, no muss. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 10:49 am EDT 08/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Scott6263 09:24 am EDT 08/16/14 |
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| As I said... | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 11:23 am EDT 08/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chromolume 10:49 am EDT 08/16/14 |
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| Why don't you and Chazwaza start your own chat room called "Simply Sondheim" where only those (like you two) who think he walks on water and can do no wrong are permitted to offer opinions. That way, you won't get all offended when folks like me don't agree with you. Talk about immature..... | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 04:31 pm EDT 08/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Scott6263 11:23 am EDT 08/16/14 |
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| How does disagreeing with you on the popularity or public knowledge of the title of Into the Woods require someone who thinks "he walks on water"? This is just basic stuff, I would have said the same thing whether I love ITW or not. You're being utterly and bizarrely ridiculous here. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 09:22 am EDT 08/17/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chazwaza 04:31 pm EDT 08/16/14 |
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| Again, that word 'bizarre'. You like that word. You used it above completely inappropriately. I am not singling out ITW (notice no quotations). I can have a debate on ITW....with someone who is dealing in reality. You feel it's a beloved classic....I do not (as others feel). I can accept that. Can you? | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | TGWW 06:25 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Scott6263 12:47 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Scott, don't have a stroke. Sondheimites are insufferable. You can't love'em and you can't beat them with a rolled up Playbill from the sixteenth and final Broadway performance of "Merrily We Roll Along", although they would enjoy it. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 09:25 am EDT 08/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - TGWW 06:25 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| That made my day! Thanks! :-) | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 02:28 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - TGWW 11:01 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| You're absolutely wrong about your assessment of ITW... it is beloved by many many more than "Sondheimites", it is one of the most performed shows, especially among shows written in the last 35 years... and it did not flop in the park, there was crazy lines to get tickets, and people being turned away all the time (half my family couldn't get in the night I saw it). Rob Marshall isn't "making" the movie, nor did he get Chicago made, he directs them. His interest in doing it is not the reason either movie got the green light, I assure you. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 01:24 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - TGWW 11:01 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| There are currently over 300 upcoming productions of Into The Woods listed on MTI's website (I didn't count the Junior version). Somebody clearly loves the show, and it can't all be laid at the feet of "Sondheimites." Unrelated, but how does a free show that plays its scheduled run flop? | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Teacher64 05:47 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - MikeR 01:24 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| While I never saw the Central Park ITW, it did not get very good reviews resulting in its Broadway transfer being cancelled. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:48 pm EDT 08/16/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Teacher64 05:47 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Apart from no Broadway transfer having ever been announced, the reason why it got distinctly mixed reviews (with many of them on the negative side) was because the production was not very good. For the most part, the negative reviews were negative about the directorial choices, not about the piece. | |
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| there was no cancelled transfer... | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 12:09 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Teacher64 05:47 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| There were of course talks and speculations... perhaps unofficially they did it with the hope of a transfer. But there was never a Broadway transfer officially announced or "cancelled". And that certainly doesn't make the show a flop. (Also, even if there were, it could have been for many reasons including cast availability and theater availability and lack of investors able to get the cash for the production to transfer... not to mention that this was an open air outdoor production which relied quite a lot on that conceptually... transferring it to an indoor Broadway theater would have defeated much of the point of this production) | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 11:24 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Teacher64 05:47 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Was there a Broadway transfer scheduled to get cancelled? I don't recall. Sure, there was talk of a transfer, but there's talk of a transfer for everything. | |
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| Nope. I would not have made the trek into the Park on a | |
| Posted by: | Esther 11:50 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - MikeR 11:24 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| very badly injured knee had there been a scheduled transfer announced. It took me 35 minutes to walk from the Central Park West entrance to the Delacorte and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I would not have done that if a transfer had been announced and waited to see it when I could have gotten dropped off right in front of whatever theater it was in. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 01:39 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - MikeR 01:24 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Besides, I'm not sure that everyone who likes Sondheim's work can be considered a "Sondheimite." Is it all or nothing? Most of us enjoy any number of composers/writers etc without going to extremes. Sure, there are people that love Sondheim's work above all else - but many more of us like all sorts of things including Sondheim's work. | |
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| re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film | |
| Posted by: | tpdc 12:35 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - TGWW 11:01 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| If Into the Woods were only loved by Sondheim fans, then there would not have been three NY productions with another soon to arrive as well as a video and now film version. Where I live, I am sure I could find a high school, college, amateur or regional production of the show several times this year or most any year since the original production closed. | |
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| ''Chicago'' is my kind of film, ''Chicago'' is ... | |
| Posted by: | WaymanWong 10:34 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
| In reply to: | re: All those songs cut from INTO THE WOODS film - Chazwaza 10:02 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| I love the movie of ''Chicago.'' It's one of the best film adaptations of a musical in a long time. It's sexy and sizzling. It got 13 Academy Award nominations, won 6 of them, including Best Picture (the one and only musical that's won Best Picture since ''Oliver!'' in 1968). To me, Rob Marshall did much more than ''skate by.'' Notably, he won the Best Director prize from the DGA. As for ''Nine,'' I won't even count the ways it disappointed me. ... But rather than speculate about ''Into the Woods'' so many months before its release, I'd rather wait and see it. I remember doomsday predictions about ''Chicago,'' too. | |
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| re: ''Chicago'' is my kind of film, ''Chicago'' is ... | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 02:24 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | ''Chicago'' is my kind of film, ''Chicago'' is ... - WaymanWong 10:34 pm EDT 08/14/14 |
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| I'm not predicting doomsday for ITW, in fact what I wrote was hopeful for it despite my issues with Marshall as a director... which are based solely on his work up until now. I was probably too young at the time to have an opinion on whether or not a good movie would be made out of Chicago, but either way it would have been based on guessing the worst and the best based on nothing... right now we have evidence of what Marshall has done, and we know certain things are cut or tinkered with, and those are legit things to base speculation, fear, or hope on. Of course one should, and I do, leave the real assumptions aside when one sees the actual movie to judge based on its own merits... that doesn't mean one can't have an opinion on the director and their record or on the show being adapted or the news of what's happening in adapting it. | |
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| re: ''Chicago'' cuts | |
| Posted by: | SidL 07:02 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: ''Chicago'' is my kind of film, ''Chicago'' is ... - Chazwaza 02:24 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| "Class" was cut from CHICAGO and ended up as a DVD extra - and "I AM MY OWN BEST FRIEND" was not considered for the big screen - so it may be (show) business as usual -getting asses into those multiplexes seats - but who wants a carbon-copy the Broadway show just look how Fosse tinkered with CABARET and succeeded | |
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| re: ''Chicago'' cuts | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 12:06 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: ''Chicago'' cuts - SidL 07:02 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| Who asked for a carbon copy? However, as for who wants that? I mean... I think a musical being adapted for film should be made to work, but the less tinkering the better because more often than not (Cabaret aside) it doesn't change it for the better. When a musical I love is being made into a film, I'm not excited to think "I've seen the show on stage and can again, I'm ready for whatever new version and "interpretation" this director has for the show on film"... a film isn't just another production. I hated the business with the kid they added for the production in Central Park, but that was just for that. A movie is forever. It is the production most people in the world will see of it, and the thing they will in theory always go back to. If it's bad, they think the musical is bad. And if it's bad in part because of changes made for the film, that's always upsetting. And if it's good, then the film becomes the standard... and if it's good with changes made for the film, that's great but one always wonders what it would have been like if the director had just tried it the way it was written. (thank goodness there will always be the recording of the original production, however that is still watching a film of the play on stage, and relatively few people will ever seek it out or know it's there) I'm just rambling. But this thing with ITW and Rob Marshall, is that I think he is a twit and I think he has proven that he doesn't trust the audience and that he doesn't trust musicals... for those two reasons, I don't trust him with making THE movie of a great musical and making the sometimes tough choices about adaptation because I think he is the type who is very quick to say "well that doesn't work, I have a new idea instead" rather than being able to think creatively and effectively about how to make something work. | |
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| re: ''Chicago'' cuts | |
| Posted by: | WaymanWong 12:39 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: ''Chicago'' cuts - Chazwaza 12:06 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| There was once a time when musicals weren't turned into movies too quickly because folks feared that a film version would cut into its Broadway grosses. Now the shoe is on the other foot. I think the reason why this revival of ''Chicago'' has run so long is because the movie was such a hit and branded it for tourists galore. Even though it would be much cheaper to just rent the DVD of ''Chicago,'' there are still many who want to see it live, not in spite of the movie, but because of it. | |
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| re: ''Chicago'' cuts | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 01:44 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: ''Chicago'' cuts - WaymanWong 12:39 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| But the revival of Chicago was a long-running hit well before the movie came out... it had been running for SIX years straight by the time that happened. I have no doubt that the success of the movie helped it run for another 12 years... an impossible thing for most shows with or without a successful movie. I think in this case, because of the particulars of the show - the dancing especially, and the sexiness, and audiences knowing they like it or that it'll be worth seeing already going in - audience feel safe buying a ticket, so it has become a perennial hit. And it's so different from Phantom and Les Miz, so so different, that it's actually not a surprise that it became an institution. It's the kind of show many people now think of when they think of "Broadway", and there are very very few shows that fit the bill in the same way, especially running or soon to be running in nyc. So again, the movie I'm sure helped quite a bit... but I'm willing to bet the show would have run another 4 years at least without the movie. | |
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| re: ''Chicago'' cuts | |
| Posted by: | Greg_M 02:07 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: ''Chicago'' cuts - Chazwaza 01:44 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| And no one ever came out humming the scenery! | |
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| re: ''Chicago'' cuts | |
| Posted by: | Scott6263 02:17 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: ''Chicago'' cuts - Greg_M 02:07 pm EDT 08/15/14 |
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| That's for sure! :-) | |
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| re: ''Chicago'' is my kind of film, ''Chicago'' is ... | |
| Posted by: | sandcastle 04:43 am EDT 08/15/14 |
| In reply to: | re: ''Chicago'' is my kind of film, ''Chicago'' is ... - Chazwaza 02:24 am EDT 08/15/14 |
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| I love this board, but I am glad I am going to the beach on Monday and won't be near a computer. HAVING SAID THAT: I hope Into The Woods (the movie) succeeds. And I hop the darkness is retained. I too though "Chicago" (the film), delivered, Wayman. "Nine" (film) wasn't terrible. But I saw it on the Island. "Mamma Mia" (film) WAS terrible, and I saw it on the Island as well. I cheered for Meryl as she worked that precipice, however. It was good to see this with a cocktail. "Cabaret". Just saw it again. Flawless. The movie. LIZA. Weekend's here! | |
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