| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 10:34 pm EST 11/18/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - OnceMoreWithFeeling 10:16 pm EST 11/18/14 |
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| Of course, she is equally cursed. Not sure what that has to do with it. "Could be a curse placed on her for allowing the greens and beans going missing." I don't think there's any question about this. "When her own curse is reversed, the baker's family's is as well." Do you mean automatically? Why would that happen? She lost her youth and beauty because of a curse or a spell cast by her mother that was intended to last beyond her own death. Or do you mean that the mother is able to follow what's going on from beyond her death and she reverses the curse on the Baker's family? Even if she could do that (which isn't clear), why would she want to do that? Why would she care about them? If she had that much power, wouldn't she restore her daughter's powers? It is clear that when the Witch specifically invokes her mother, her mother is able to respond in some way. But that would not have been relevant in the situation discussed above. "And as far as her powers nullifying past curses, unless she was lying about her intentions to remove their curse, that doesn't make sense as she didn't know she would lose her powers." I don't know what you mean. What I'm suggesting is that perhaps the answer to the OP's question is that when she loses her powers, it's partly retroactive. So all her past spells lose their power. But clearly she had no idea that she would lose her powers when she lost her beauty. If she did, she wouldn't have done it. So she probably thinks that she has taken the spell off the Baker's family, especially since the Baker's Wife immediately becomes pregnant. But, in fact, the reason why the spell on the Baker's family has lost its effect is because all of the Witch's past spells have lost their effect. But she doesn't realize this until she tries to use her powers to punish Rapunzel and her prince. Just a theory. I haven't yet seen a more plausible one suggested. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | OnceMoreWithFeeling 11:20 pm EST 11/18/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - AlanScott 10:34 pm EST 11/18/14 |
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| I didn't know the curse-giver had to be alive to remove the curse? In Shrek, Fiona's curse is lifted by true love's kiss as in many other stories. This doesn't require a resurrection to take place. To me, the witch was cursed and by removing hers, it removed the one on the baker. Not sure why you have much emphasis on the witch's mother. Can't a girl cast a curse and die and not have to deal with it after? Why can't a curse just simply end? This is also a story with giants and maidens in towers, so plausibility certainly isn't an issue. Certainly the curse may be reversed because she loses her powers and not because of what they do for her, but again, just because there isn't an active "ok, I am lifting your curse, Baker" doesn't mean it didn't just happen on its own. Perhaps the curse reversed the moment she drank the milk or right before turning youthful again. I guess i'm failing to see why this is a big deal now.. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | garyd 11:00 pm EST 11/18/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - AlanScott 10:34 pm EST 11/18/14 |
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| The Witch, perhaps, could really care less about the Baker and his wife. She is only interested in removing the curse her mother placed upon her. So she tells them to get whatever she tells them to go get. Not sure why it has to be done in the time span of 3 midnights. Aristolean, i guess. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | bearcat 01:32 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - garyd 11:00 pm EST 11/18/14 |
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| isn't the Witch being reasonable by giving them 3 midnights to collect all those things | |
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| Nothing to do with being reasonable | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 04:07 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - bearcat 01:32 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| It's very definitely a deadline. If the Witch does not drink the potion by the last bell of the third midnight, she will have lost her chance to have the spell cast by her mother reversed. | |
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| re: Nothing to do with being reasonable | |
| Posted by: | jero 05:42 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | Nothing to do with being reasonable - AlanScott 04:07 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| I'm not real up on these things. are we even sure the mother cursed her or was this an ongoing curse... sort of like guard the beans or else... that she got from her mother? | |
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| re: Nothing to do with being reasonable | |
| Posted by: | garyd 09:13 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Nothing to do with being reasonable - jero 05:42 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| Obviously, the witch's mother and the giant were "doing it". | |
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| re: Nothing to do with being reasonable | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 06:10 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: Nothing to do with being reasonable - jero 05:42 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| Her mother cursed her for losing the beans. "Alright mother, when? Lost the beans again Punish me the way you did then Give me claws, and a hunch Just away from this bunch And the gloom And the doom And the boom Crunch!" | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | garyd 01:58 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - bearcat 01:32 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| As reasonable as a witch gets I guess. I think it less to do with the witch and more to do with dramatic structure. Ya gotta have a time frame for tension…very "Poetics". | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 07:15 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - garyd 01:58 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| Well, of course, part of the fun of this ITW fairy-tale world is the incongruities and "unreasonable" elements. "I need your shoe to have a child," or (in the original production) a cow with wheels and a handle, or a manly prince who is freaked out by the idea of dwarves, etc. | |
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| Dwarves Dwarfs Dwarves | |
| Posted by: | garyd 09:19 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Chromolume 07:15 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| all are very upsetting. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 11:45 pm EST 11/18/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - garyd 11:00 pm EST 11/18/14 |
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| Yes, I think it's a given that she doesn't care about the Baker and his Wife, except that she basically dislikes them and has contempt for them. I agree that the only reason she offers the remove the curse is to get them to obtain the objects needed to remove the curse, and she can't do that herself since she is not allowed to touch the objects. So she needs them, but she doesn't like them or care about them. She loathes them. No reason is offered why it must be done in three days, but it's part of the three midnights thing in Cinderella, it's there to align with that. But no reason is given for why the Baker and his Wife have three days from the time she first speaks to them about it. The director and the Witch just need to come up with something for their own sakes, even though the audience will never know. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 12:04 am EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - AlanScott 11:45 pm EST 11/18/14 |
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| I think it's pretty clear that the third midnight is a deadline for the Witch, as she pushes them very hard to gather the ingredients by that time, and also to get them fed to Milky White (and milk her) before the strike of the third midnight. What isn't clear is why this is the deadline, and perhaps more importantly, why she waited until there were three days left before she first approached the Baker and his Wife about helping her get the ingredients. But then we wouldn't have much of a show if everyone acted rationally. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 12:20 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - MikeR 12:04 am EST 11/19/14 |
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| What isn't clear is why this is the deadline, and perhaps more importantly, why she waited until there were three days left before she first approached the Baker and his Wife about helping her get the ingredients. I figure it's not that she waited until there were only 3 days left, rather that there would only be 3 days to do this in the first place. (And I tend to agree that the "3 days" idea if, nothing else, makes sense when aligned with Cinderella and the 3 days of the festival.) Personally, when I first saw the show, I thought the idea of using the corn husk in place of Rapunzel's hair sounded too contrived. But I guess I'm used to it now, lol. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 12:35 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Chromolume 12:20 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| It's not the corn husk, it's the corn silk. Still a bit contrived, but it's a lot closer to hair than the husk would be. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 02:00 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - MikeR 12:35 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| I stand corrected. (But you knew what I meant, lol.) | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 02:21 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Chromolume 02:00 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| True, it's just that one is a lot more hair-like than the other. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 12:08 am EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - MikeR 12:04 am EST 11/19/14 |
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| Yes, to all of what you said. Everything you said is what I meant. I guess I didn't express it very clearly. Long day after not much sleep. | |
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| Another thought.. | |
| Posted by: | garyd 12:03 am EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - AlanScott 11:45 pm EST 11/18/14 |
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| It is probably important that she truly does "need" them. "No one is alone" and all that. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | garyd 12:01 am EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - AlanScott 11:45 pm EST 11/18/14 |
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| Hmm, I thought there were only two midnights in most Cinderella stories. Actually, I have no clue. just saw the opera and there were no midnights…I don't think. Lots of patter songs though. Anyway, as with so much of his work,(Sondheim), the lyrics and music are so exquisite, who cares about the actual book? Well,yeah, I know, both come from the book but they always transcend it. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 11:22 pm EST 11/18/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - garyd 11:00 pm EST 11/18/14 |
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| Couldn't care less. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 12:04 am EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Michael_Portantiere 11:22 pm EST 11/18/14 |
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| Perhaps not participating in the conversation would've been the best choice, then. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 11:46 am EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - MikeR 12:04 am EST 11/19/14 |
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| I was correcting the phrase "could care less," which means the opposite of the correct version, "couldn't care less." But it seems very few people even notice the error anymore because it's almost always wrong :-( If I may participate more fully in the discussion, this thread points up what I've felt from the beginning: INTO THE WOODS has apparently become Sondheim's most popular show (in terms of number of revivals, the fact that it's one of the few to be made into a movie, etc.), but I think that's largely because people respond to the presence of the fairytale characters they love so well, rather than to the actual storytelling of the show, which is flawed (especially in Act II). | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 04:05 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Michael_Portantiere 11:46 am EST 11/19/14 |
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| I sometimes say "I could care less" as a way of indicating that I care so little that I can't even be bothered to say "I couldn't care less." ;) I really like "I could care less," even though it's wrong. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 04:29 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - AlanScott 04:05 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| To me, "I could care less" only sounds like it means "I don't care at all" if you say it with a question mark: I could care less? | |
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| lol oops. :) | |
| Posted by: | garyd 11:59 am EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Michael_Portantiere 11:46 am EST 11/19/14 |
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| I admit I often make the "could care less" goof. I thought I had overcome it but obviously not. I care but I suppose I should care more. Not sure I agree with second part of your post though I certainly have nothing but subjective intuition upon which to base by disagreement. However, I do agree the storytelling does seem to be flawed. | |
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| re: lol oops. :) | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 12:07 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | lol oops. :) - garyd 11:59 am EST 11/19/14 |
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| Thanks. I just don't think it's a coincidence that Sondheim's most popular show happens to be the one with characters including Little Red Riding Hood, the Wolf, Rapunzel, Jack (in the Beanstalk), et al. I think COMPANY, FOLLIES, A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC, and SWEENEY TODD are all better shows than INTO THE WOODS, even though not as popular. It does seem to me, however, that SWEENEY has grown greatly in popularity over the years. Of course, even though the popularity of INTO THE WOODS can be and has been measured objectively, I too can only go on subjective intuition as to WHY this is true. | |
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| re: lol oops. :) | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 04:17 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: lol oops. :) - Michael_Portantiere 12:07 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| I think that even though the original Broadway production of Into the Woods ran 207 more performances than the original Broadeway production of Sweeney, more people may have seen Sweeney. Into the Woods has had more productions over the years, but, yeah, Sweeney has done well also. I don't think there's any question that the fairy tale characters are a big part of why ITW has been produced so much. It's perceived as being a family show because of that. | |
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| re: lol oops. :) | |
| Posted by: | Ann 05:57 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: lol oops. :) - AlanScott 04:17 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| Probably if you just count their first acts, Into the Woods has been seen more. | |
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| re: lol oops. :) | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 04:25 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: lol oops. :) - AlanScott 04:17 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| "I don't think there's any question that the fairy tale characters are a big part of why ITW has been produced so much. It's perceived as being a family show because of that." Absolutely. I was amused, and yet I thought it made perfect sense, when I heard that the "junior" version of ITW consists of only the first act. | |
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| re: lol oops. :) | |
| Posted by: | garyd 01:55 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: lol oops. :) - Michael_Portantiere 12:07 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| Good points. I also remember reading an article prior to the 2002 revival in which Sondheim said something to the effect that some changes were being made in an attempt to make ITW even more "kid friendly" to perhaps tap into the "Lion King" demographic. And, of course, he has always said that he thought/hoped ITW would be more of a cash cow than his other shows and I guess that is true. I always cringe when I hear of a high school production of "Follies". It just seems so odd. It's like a high school drama teacher deciding "Long Day's Journey Into Night" might make a dandy senior play production. | |
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| re: lol oops. :) | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 03:27 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: lol oops. :) - garyd 01:55 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| Have you heard of many high school productions of FOLLIES? I don't think I've heard of any. Which is not to say that other wildly inappropriate shows aren't done in high schools... | |
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| re: lol oops. :) | |
| Posted by: | garyd 09:23 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: lol oops. :) - Michael_Portantiere 03:27 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| Yes, oddly enough, I have heard of several and there are several youtube examples. It almost comes across as child porn. | |
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| re: lol oops. :) | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 10:03 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: lol oops. :) - garyd 09:23 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| Colleges do it. The Boston Conservatory did a production of Follies back in 2008. They really shouldn't have. The majority of the students, as one would expect, didn't have the life experience to know how to play the material. (Granted, student productions cast youngsters as adults all the time, but when the overarching theme of the show is people looking back at themselves after 30 years, I think that's unreasonable acting material for a cast of mostly 20-year-olds.) I remember that the Hattie and the Phyllis were closest to having the sense of maturity needed to get into the roles, and to the other extreme, I remember that the Weissman resorted to some sort of embarrassingly phony "old man" walk to "define" his character. The rest of the principals learned their lines and songs but had nothing to say with them. The show also ran OVER 3 hours. Why did anyone think that show was a good choice? | |
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| re: lol oops. :) | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 09:37 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: lol oops. :) - garyd 09:23 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| Amazing! | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | Ann 11:48 am EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Michael_Portantiere 11:46 am EST 11/19/14 |
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| I think MikeR knew that - you two just can't see eye to eye ;) | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 12:03 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Ann 11:48 am EST 11/19/14 |
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| Actually, I did not, so I'm grateful for the clarification. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | Ann 01:15 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - MikeR 12:03 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| Oh, gee, sorry. I thought you made a joke, and I laughed. I do think you and Michael are very similar in the kinds of things you post and that you would get along, though you don't usually seem to on the board. Just wanting us all to get along ... ;) | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 04:03 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Ann 01:15 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| I thought the same thing. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 01:27 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Ann 01:15 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| Sometimes we do :-) | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | Ann 01:29 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Michael_Portantiere 01:27 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| OK, I'm happy for that. | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | SuzanneR 08:52 pm EST 11/19/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Ann 01:29 pm EST 11/19/14 |
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| Kum ba yah, my lord, Kum ba yah... | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | garyd 11:30 pm EST 11/18/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Michael_Portantiere 11:22 pm EST 11/18/14 |
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| Healthy attitude. :) But, hey you know, "it's the little things we do together" | |
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| re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? | |
| Posted by: | OnceMoreWithFeeling 11:22 pm EST 11/18/14 |
| In reply to: | re: INTO THE WOODS magic-what am I missing-potion? - Michael_Portantiere 11:22 pm EST 11/18/14 |
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| Excellent. I'm glad we all know that now. My life is richer for this information. | |
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