| The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | Greg_M 05:42 pm EST 11/21/14 |
| In reply to: | re: ''Gigi'': ''Overnight, there's been a ... change in you'' - AlanScott 04:22 pm EST 11/21/14 |
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| The song is about love of women . . .little girls grow to be those women. . .the singer isn't lusting after little girls, he's great full they will grow into women to think otherwise is going way overboard especially when you know the plot of the story | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | singleticket 06:38 pm EST 11/21/14 |
| In reply to: | The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - Greg_M 05:42 pm EST 11/21/14 |
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| Gaston follows an arc from doting on Gigi as "a little girl" to wanting to have sex with her. Perhaps little Gigi is being tastefully marketed to Gaston while she is a little girl or perhaps not. Gigi is being brought up in a demimonde of genteel prostitution that is so full of propriety that it might as well be as bourgeois an institution as marriage. That's the joke in the source material… the place where nearly all of its humor lies. "Thank Heaven for Little Girls" has all of that adult ambiguity in it… otherwise, why the need to cut it out? | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 06:43 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - singleticket 06:38 pm EST 11/21/14 |
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| Perhaps little Gigi is being tastefully marketed to Gaston while she is a little girl or perhaps not. Have you actually seen this movie? There is no way that can be imagined that Gigi is being "marketed" to Gaston, precisely the contrary in fact. Gaston has shown no interest in very young girls; his mistress is played by Eva Gabor who in real life was a couple of years older than Louis Jourdan. Later he squires Monique van Vooren, 30ish but statuesque and sophisticated, to the "Battle of Flowers." His type (in mistresses) is clearly established as mature, hyperfeminine blondes. Gigi is the exact opposite of that type, which is why Gaston really doesn't want Gigi to be his mistress. He makes the offer because he can't conceive of any other sort of romantic relationship with a woman. (Of course, one generally was not in love with one's wife.) Gigi makes the same assumption: she doesn't come from a family of women who marry. I don't have a DVD of the film handy, but I seem to recall a scene in which Aunt Alicia and Mamita are startled to realize that Gaston is attracted to Gigi. They decide that though this turn of events is unexpected, they need to put Gigi's training into high gear so she is ready when he makes an offer. So unless Alicia and Mamita are, in complete privacy, playing out a charade that they were unaware of Gaston's feelings, it only makes sense that they were "grooming" Gigi for someone else--eventually. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | singleticket 08:32 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - LegitOnce 06:43 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| Gaston has shown no interest in very young girls; his mistress is played by Eva Gabor who in real life was a couple of years older than Louis Jourdan. Later he squires Monique van Vooren, 30ish but statuesque and sophisticated, to the "Battle of Flowers." His type (in mistresses) is clearly established as mature, hyperfeminine blondes. I think this is where Gaston is being commodified as Gigi is being trained to be a courtesan. The scene with Eva Gabor clearly shows why Gaston's role as a future Honoré is souring on him and why he might be attracted to Gigi… who is a blend of little girl innocence and a courtesan in training. And Gigi turns out to be no fool. She turns Alicia's training against its purpose and both humiliates and wins Gaston's heart. Is she calculating, no and perhaps yes. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 08:40 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - singleticket 08:32 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| Now you're just making stuff up. One of my "ideals" is not to get involved in this kind of wrongheaded argument on the internet. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | singleticket 08:52 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - LegitOnce 08:40 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| There is definitely innocence in Gigi both as a character and in the musical as a whole but it exists in a world that is as much Balzac as Cinderella; wry economic calculation about the heart as much as fairy tale. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 09:06 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - singleticket 08:52 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| Now you're changing your argument. Please show me where in the text of the film it is shown that prior to the Trouville scene Alicia and Mamita were specifically grooming Gigi for Gaston. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | singleticket 09:19 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - LegitOnce 09:06 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| I think you're changing the argument into the one you want to have. Where did I say that Alicia and Mamita were "specifically grooming Gigi for Gaston"? I said perhaps or perhaps not. Mamita and Alica know who Gaston is. They know the role that he's born to play just as they know the role that Gigi is born to play. And again, I think you're wrong in seeing the musical purely as a fairy tale. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 09:27 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - singleticket 09:19 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| If there is a perhaps, then you need a reason for that perhaps. There is no reason given in the movie for that "perhaps." Perhaps Gigi is really a boy and a space alien besides. Prove that she isn't. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | singleticket 09:40 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - LegitOnce 09:27 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| There is plenty of reason for that perhaps in that Gigi is being groomed as a courtesan in front of Gaston who is in the habit of acquiring courtesans. Gaston suddenly realizes in all innocence that he desires Gigi just as Mamita and Alica realize in all innocence that Gigi could be acquired by Gaston. You're saying those realizations are completely innocent. I'm saying, perhaps or perhaps not. And, you're being a bitch about now. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 08:15 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - LegitOnce 06:43 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| Okay, I found the scene I was talking about. It's right after "I remember it well." Alicia summons Mamita for a conference. Alicia says, "My dear sister, has it ever occurred to you.." And Mamita puzzled for a moment, then blurts, "Gigi?" -- astonished. Alicia, who has obviously developed a very sensitive radar for men's feelings of attraction (a handy tool indeed in her former line of work) has detected a subtle change in Gaston's attitude toward Gigi. He used to think of her as a baby sister, but now... it may well be something romantic. Mamita can't see this because a) she lacks Alicia's precise discernment and b) she has been too close to both Gaston and Gigi to notice what is after all a gradual and rather subtle shift in his feelings. The point, though, is that Alicia makes the discovery that Gaston is romantically attracted to Gigi and then determines to make the best of it; neither she nor Mamita was "marketing" Gigi to Gaston. Further proof of this fact is that once it has been established that Gigi is going "on the market," Mamita forbids Gigi to be seen in public with Gaston, because that would make Gigi appear either already taken or second-hand goods. If Mamita had been planning on "marketing" Gigi to Gaston, she would have limited their meetings earlier. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | lordofspeech 11:45 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - LegitOnce 08:15 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| Point well taken. Gigi was not being groomed for Gaston, specifically. But was she going to eventually be groomed for the profession? No? I don't know. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 12:52 am EST 11/24/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - lordofspeech 11:45 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| I think it's pretty clear that Gigi is being prepared to enter the "family profession," though, ironically (as has been pointed out elsewhere) she is essentially receiving the same sort of training a genteel young woman of marriageable age would: how to serve coffee, how to enter a room, how to eat ortolans and so forth. (Obviously the ortolans scene is meant to be comic, but it's comedy based on truth; a married woman in society would be expected to have exquisite manners.) The training Aunt Alicia provides is essentially what separates a courtesan from a prostitute, which is to say the difference between being comfortably set for life and dying in poverty. (Mamita, being inclined to sentimentality, was not as good at the game as the level-headed Alicia, and that is consistent with the conventional wisdom of the 19th century that a truly successful courtesan must have a cold and absolutely practical heart. The second act (of the musical) plot turn, when Alicia decides that they had better strike while the iron is hot and get Gigi ready for Gaston, implies that before that point Alicia and Mamita didn't expect Gigi to "come out" for a while yet. This is all the more reason that Gigi needs to be played as a very young girl, the 15 1/2 Colette specifies or else her age tactfully not mentioned as in the MGM movie. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | Greg_M 04:04 pm EST 11/24/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - LegitOnce 12:52 am EST 11/24/14 |
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| There is a big difference between Gigi and a prostitute. A prostitute doesn't get taken out "on the town" and engage in a long term relationship with "one" man. The only difference between Gigi and a wife is a marriage certificate. A prostitute has multiple partners in one night and receives cash not gifts and is not to be seen with you in public | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | singleticket 08:26 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - LegitOnce 08:15 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| The only thing those scenes prove is that Alicia is the businesswoman and Mamita is the romantic. Both economics and romance exist side by side in the household. When it becomes clear that Gaston is taken with Gigi, it becomes absolutely necessary to maintain propriety in public. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 08:32 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - singleticket 08:26 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| You haven't seen the movie then. Easier just to finish this conversation now. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | singleticket 08:34 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - LegitOnce 08:32 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| Hold on to your ideals! | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | singleticket 08:15 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - LegitOnce 06:43 pm EST 11/23/14 |
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| Yes, I have seen the movie, quite a few times. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | Alcindoro 06:58 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - singleticket 06:38 pm EST 11/21/14 |
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| >Gaston follows an arc from doting on Gigi as "a little girl" to wanting to have sex with her.< I think that's just as dirty a view of Gaston as someone who chooses to see Honoré as a covert child molester. Gaston has the revelation that he no longer has any choice BUT to see Gigi in a different light, as a poised, beautiful - and yes, desirable - young woman, no longer a charming, playful child. His understandable desire for her is confusing for him and, like an irrational child himself, he is angry at her for it. And she cannot understand this: as LegitOnce thoughtfully points out, she is only doing what everyone expects of her and is devastated when Gaston is angered by it. For the moment, they both seem to have lost a friend. To me this has always been so very touching about the film (I've never read Collette), and "Thank Heaven" more or less encapsulates the whole message of the upcoming story in song. Perhaps it's a problem because it is the opening number of the film and we haven't had the chance to get to know and like Honoré yet, but really it had never occurred to me that it was anything pervy until I was an adult and female (and gay male) friends pointed it out to me. Maybe the solution to the number would be positioning it later in the show, perhaps as Honoré explains his philosophy to other characters. I don't think making it a duet for the two older women "fixes" anything, in fact I think it can be construed just as negatively for different reasons. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | gcarl44 11:00 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - Alcindoro 06:58 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| Right on! Indeed, if given to the women to sing, it could just as easily be construed (by minds that naturally go to the perverse) as expectations of themselves being taken care of in their old age by the courtesan-in-training they are preparing for just such a life. People need to remember the era it is portraying and the whimsical and romantic nature of the piece. There is nothing in this that could be construed as perverse or inappropriate, except in the minds of the overly sensitive and overly PC (which, by the way, has already been taken to enough extremes of absurdity.) | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | Alcindoro 11:56 am EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - gcarl44 11:00 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| >the minds of the overly sensitive and overly PC< Not to mention the doggedly cynical. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | singleticket 07:27 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - Alcindoro 06:58 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| I think that's just as dirty a view of Gaston as someone who chooses to see Honoré as a covert child molester. Dirty? On the contrary, it's all quite proper. The characters operate in a grey area of middle class morality that at the same time has a very high respect for middle class economics. In that sense, it is kind of dirty. I don't think making it a duet for the two older women "fixes" anything, in fact I think it can be construed just as negatively for different reasons. Yes. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 06:08 pm EST 11/21/14 |
| In reply to: | The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - Greg_M 05:42 pm EST 11/21/14 |
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| I agree that's what the song is about, but when you have a man of 50 or 60 or 70 singing the song while looking at a bunch of teenage girls, as in the movie, it's easy to be a little creeped out by it, even if you know what the song is intended to be. | |
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| re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way | |
| Posted by: | LegitOnce 07:56 pm EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: The song is only creepy if you choose to see it that way - AlanScott 06:08 pm EST 11/21/14 |
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| Actually (I just checked) it doesn't play out quite that way. Honoré looks at the young girls (Gigi among them) and says "... and there is the future. Someday each and every one of them will be either married or unmarried. How adorable they are!" He glances at a very young girl, about 8 or 9, with an avuncular grin, and launches into the song, all of it directed to the camera. He doesn't leer, he doesn't sigh, he doesn't do anything but enjoy the idea that there will eventually be a new crop of young, beautiful women to enjoy. His joy is in anticipation. Sadly, Anglo-Saxon society (it's even worse in Great Britain) has become infinitely oversensitized to the imminent danger of child molestation, to the point that it is practically impossible to form a friendly relationship with a person from a different generation. Virtually all of these friendships are completely innocent and in fact healthy for the participants on both sides of the generational divide. Now, unfortunately, this sort of friendship is immediately defined as "creepy," which, because it makes the beholder uncomfortable, must necessarily be further defined as illegal. I had lots of adult friends when I was a child, especially as a preteen, and I think those relationships were very valuable. Such a thing would be almost impossible today, because dirty-minded society insists on being "creeped out." | |
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