| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | Ann 09:53 am EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - Delvino 09:23 am EST 11/22/14 |
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| I wonder what the comparison would be if you looked at the total cost of being a New York theatregoer (living expenses, ticket prices for more shows) vs being an out of towner who travels in. Now, some out of towners live in other expensive places to live, but most probably don't compare to living in New York. | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 10:21 am EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - Ann 09:53 am EST 11/22/14 |
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| I think you would find that many folks living in NYC do not have living expenses significantly different than those in other cities. Unquestionably, we get much less space for the same money, but we also spend, on average, under $150 a month on transportation whereas the average person living elsewhere spends many times that much. Food costs, I find, balance out as well. The average visitor is accessing goods and services that cost significantly more than a local spends, and of course we also tend to make somewhat more in comparable circumstances. Locals don't pay inflated hotel prices, shop in stores in high traffic areas or even pay a lot for theatre tickets, except on special occasions. Yes there are a lot of people here with the wherewithal to spend as much as they please, but that is not comparable as that can be said for most relatively prosperous areas in the country. | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | Thom915 (Thom915@aol.com) 02:23 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - ryhog 10:21 am EST 11/22/14 |
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| WHAT? Find any statistical based article that finds the cost of consumer prices in NY comparable to any but a handful of urban centers in this country! You are confusing the cost of visiting a city with the cost of living in a city. Visiting is going to be higher but the cost of rent especially in New York (and as stated a few other urban areas) is a good percentage points higher than most of the United States. Just compare a one bedroom (and never mind about the square footage) in most cities to anywhere in NYC. Food is a bit more equal but usually more inexpensive out of town The same with clothing and other good(normal price often equivalent to a good sale price in NY) We have a slight advantage in transportation if one uses public transportation (as one does in Manhattan) but if one uses a car (as is often the case in the other boroughs, that advantage evaporates.) And we may not pay full price on theater tickets but what we do pay is often the equivalent of a full price ticket for a professional show out of town. | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | Singapore/Fling 08:50 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - Thom915 02:23 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| And I so hate to agree with Ryhog... At this point of time, most Americans live in urban areas. Cost of living in at least a good third of those cities are largely comparable. My hometown has seen prices go through the roof in the past ten years - when I go back, I no longer have sticker shock. If anything, nowadays I think, "$8 for a sandwich... that's New York prices". And the same is true the world over - prices for an affluent lifestyle in Bangkok or Beijing equal those of New York. You have to be in lower tier cities before you see prices dropping considerably. Likewise, if you know where to look, you can still find a good meal near Times Square for under $10. As for all of us who live in boroughs, I can promise you that most of us either lack a vcar as well, or have a car for minimal use. | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 05:01 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - Thom915 02:23 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| I'm linking what I replied below to josiahjosiah. ryhog and I seem to view this somewhat similarly. | |
| Link | Comparisons are not always equal |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 02:38 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - Thom915 02:23 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| What I observe does not agree with what you are saying. | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 03:02 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - ryhog 02:38 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| where are you seeing housing/rent prices comparable to new york anywhere but in major urban centers? | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 03:10 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - enoch10 03:02 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| when i look at what i spend and what most people i know spend. | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 03:14 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - ryhog 03:10 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| mmmnnn ... i think that data is a bit too informal unless everyone you know is in a rent stabilized apartment. | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | Singapore/Fling 09:12 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - enoch10 03:14 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| Conversely, are you only considering people in market-rate condos? That is still not the life of the average New Yorker. | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | Thom915 (Thom915@aol.com) 01:25 am EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - Singapore/Fling 09:12 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| Where does he say he is considering people only in market rate condos? And living in rent stabilized apartments is not the life of a majority of New York residents either unless you live in the Bronx. One says you can still get a good meal under $ 10 in Times square if you know where to go. Do you think people in other cities don't know where to get a good meal in their town possibly for under $ 8? I take the average rent for a one bedroom apartment in New york to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000. That takes into consideration all the rent stabilized apartments as well as market rate and one can still find in a good many cities a good one bedroom for between $650 and $ 800 a month, a substantial difference. Statistics are useful for one purpose. We cannot take one lifestyle and apply it across the board and say this then is the way it is for everyone. | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 09:29 am EST 11/23/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - Thom915 01:25 am EST 11/23/14 |
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| Thom, I'll accept your average rental price estimates (though not your characterization of rent stabilized apts). Now please add in the additional cost of a car, insurance, gas, maintenance, etc. instead of a monthly metro card. Re food cost, the more germane comparison would be straight up food costs, not a restaurant, even a cheap one. it is quite possible to obtain most food in new york for less than elsewhere, with a modest effort. It is true, of course, that most of us don't sweat the bucks quite as hard as this, because we also make more than folks so elsewhere. But that is not to suggest that it can't be a struggle to be a young person moving to New York especially as a theatre person. That's why we hear stories about survival jobs, and about the arc that follows that story through modest successes professionally as well as the success of finally getting that apartment at Manhattan Plaza. Certainly there are compromises, and certainly everyone is not willing to (or even interested to) make them. But the typical experience cost-wise of someone who has been living here for 25+ years of adulthood is not significantly different than anywhere else. And that's all I set out to say, and that others have agreed with. | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 10:22 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - Singapore/Fling 09:12 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| I LIKE agreeing with you :-) It is worth remembering, for those who do not live here and who get most of their info from statistical reports, that there are well over a million regulated apartments in this city. That's not to say there should not be more, but it is more than the total number of dwellings in most of the big cities in this country. There are also more dwellings in this city that cost over $20 million than there are dwellings of any kind in a lot of cities. Statistics are funny things. | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 03:22 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - enoch10 03:14 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| i would say most are, or they are in some other non-standard living arrangement like a share. But I think that is a reality that these stats don't contemplate. | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | Guillaume 11:44 am EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - ryhog 10:21 am EST 11/22/14 |
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| That must have been a good workout, sweeping all those generalizations on behalf of NYC! | |
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| re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 12:23 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - Guillaume 11:44 am EST 11/22/14 |
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| I don't get your issue. It's clear I was not generalizing; I was explaining how things stack up and why. I made clear that there was no one size fits all answer, so where was the generalization? Or did you just think it would be clever to use sweep as a transitive verb? | |
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| MEOW...try the Google | |
| Posted by: | josiahjosiah 02:49 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: And did you take out a 2nd mortgage? - ryhog 12:23 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| for instance, using a cost of living calculator, like: http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/ shows that Groceries 47%more Housing 342%more Utilities 19%more Transportation 13%more Health Care 9%less compared to where I live in Massachusetts! (No comparison for entertainment, literally or figuratively speaking.) | |
| Link | http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/ |
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| Things to remember | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 04:55 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | MEOW...try the Google - josiahjosiah 02:49 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| I don't have the patience right now to look closely at the cnn page, but I think it primarily deals with what it would cost to move to New York now as opposed to what it would cost to move to, for example, Chapel Hill. Many longtime New Yorkers either bought their homes or apartments long ago or are living in rent-stabilized (and some still in rent-controlled) apartments. I would probably have to pay more rent, not less, if I moved to another city. And I know that there are hundreds of thousands of other New Yorkers for which that would be true. Similarly, when you post that about transportation, I have to wonder if it is based on comparing what the average New Yorker spends on transportation compared to what the average person in your part of Massachusetts spends. Because relatively few New Yorkers have cars, we probably on average spend a lot less on transportation than people almost anywhere else in the country. Now if that survey is comparing what it costs a New Yorker with a car for transportation compared with what it costs someone in Massachusetts with a car, then New York is more expensive. And I suspect that's what it is basically doing. It's comparing the cost of the uses of the same types of transportation from one city to another, not what the average New York spends on transportation as opposed to what the average person pays on transportation elsewhere. If so, and I'm pretty sure, it's an apples and oranges comparison. Even a lot of New Yorkers who do have cars use them relatively rarely compared to people elsewhere so gas costs are much less and wear on the car can be less. On the relatively rare occasions when I travel to other cities, I do find that many things are cheaper. But I'm also surprised to find that some things are not cheaper, or not much cheaper. Especially if you're a longtime New Yorker and you know where to shop and where to go out to dinner, you can live surprisingly inexpensively here. And even young people I know who've moved here in recent years without a lot of money have found ways to live here for surprisingly little. Obviously, it can also be extremely expensive living here. But I think that some surveys can be very misleading. | |
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| re: Things to remember | |
| Posted by: | garyd 07:22 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | Things to remember - AlanScott 04:55 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| Well, living in "world class" cities is expensive. Period. We have many friends who have either lived in NYC forever and friends like us who moved here in the late 60's /early seventies. Their cost of living is high but much lower than those who have moved in recently. If property is owned, one also must figure in property taxes and residency, either property owner or renter, involves income taxes as well. California taxes are horrible while NY are totally absurd. We live in "both" the SF Bay Area and NYC so we are pretty much screwed in a weird bicoastal enigma. But, due to dumb luck, or more accurately, my wife's exquisite intuition, we bought in both places in the early 70's so that sort of helps. Of course, if you want to talk insanity, let's gather around the table and discuss London. Bottom line, however, if you are a theatre freak, as we are all here, then it is possible but increasingly financially difficult to visit NYC and see what we want to see. But this is our avocation so it is how we choose to spend our money. February weather can be crummy but the prices are right. | |
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| re: MEOW...try the Google | |
| Posted by: | Ann 03:05 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | MEOW...try the Google - josiahjosiah 02:49 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| I saw a statistic that said, as of last month, average rental within 10 miles of New York is $2933 for a one bedroom. Where I live, the average is less than a third of that (other big cities are more like half; a couple are equal). Homes for purchase are even farther apart. (Of course, we have more room, so we buy more stuff.) With the difference in housing, even adding in a car, the fact that some of us can afford a few trips into New York isn't shocking, it's just a different distribution. Tougher for dramedy than me, though ;) | |
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| re: MEOW...try the Google | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 03:19 pm EST 11/22/14 |
| In reply to: | re: MEOW...try the Google - Ann 03:05 pm EST 11/22/14 |
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| that sounds like a bloated real estate industry stat, not any reality i am familiar with. all i am saying is that folks who choose to live here (and it is, obviously, a choice) find a way of making it all work in a way that involves compromises that would not be palatable anywhere else. But what we would say is, it's not anywhere else. even if we were to take that $2933 as correct-and it can't be except at some new rental level that disregards rent subsidized and stabilized-it also fails to ask how many unrelated people live in that 1 BR apt. In Pittsburgh, the answer is generally going to be 1, whereas in NYC it is more likely to be 2-3. Now recalculate, factoring in the fully distributed cost of a car as well, and you'll see what I mean. | |
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