| What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 11:07 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| Oy. Brantley's HONEYMOON IN VEGAS review is a rave. He loves the song about SKIN CANCER. The world as we know it has come to an end. This show is SO tired and DOA. How he could possibly like this TWICE is beyond me. Perhaps he's just too stubborn to admit he was wrong the first time. | |
| Link | http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/16/theater/honeymoon-in-vegas-with-tony-danza-opens-on-broadway.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=1 |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the score? | |
| Posted by: | jeffef 10:38 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:07 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| Is this another Bridges or Last Ship? Great score but mixed opinion regarding the show as a whole? In other words should I get the CD? | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the score? | |
| Posted by: | gcarl44 05:31 pm EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the ... - jeffef 10:38 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| The CD is great and very enjoyable (a very different departure for Brown), and it sounds like a good old fashioned musical comedy. But it falls short on stage in the actual production. And as a musical "comedy", there's not much fun. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the score? | |
| Posted by: | larry13 11:40 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the ... - jeffef 10:38 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| NOT, in my opinion, anywhere remotely near the level of Brown's BRIDGES score, or Sting's LAST SHIP. I don't want to hear any of these songs again, especially as sung by at least one of the stars, let alone get the CD. Others, obviously, may disagree. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the score? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 11:29 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the ... - jeffef 10:38 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| I honestly don't know how anyone can answer that. There are certainly those who like the score, and those (including me) who don't. I also didn't like the Bridges score, but this is really quite different. I loved the Last Ship score. I think, however, you will find folks who liked all, who liked the others but not this and of course we have those who don't like anything :-) Why not just listen to it and see if you like it before deciding whether or not you "need"to won the CD? Spotify is your friend. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the score? | |
| Posted by: | mermaniac 12:29 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the ... - ryhog 11:29 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| After seeing the matinee Wednesday and enjoying it very much (because it's just good, old-fashioned entertainment ---- with an OVERTURE !!!) I went home and listened to it on Spotify. The CD is also very entertaining, and really captures the show. It deserves to run, but probably won't, because they killed "Bullets" too. However, when Rob came out & nicely schmoozed with the folks, I shook his hand, congratulated him, and wished him some very deserved good luck. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the score? | |
| Posted by: | gcarl44 05:35 pm EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the ... - mermaniac 12:29 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| The only thing that killed Bullets was Bullets. It shot itself in the head. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the score? | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 10:26 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the ... - mermaniac 12:29 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| >> ecause they killed "Bullets" too who is "they?" | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the score? | |
| Posted by: | huskyital 09:08 am EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the ... - enoch10 10:26 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| The critics....except the Post which named it in the top 10 of the year. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the score? | |
| Posted by: | lowwriter 12:29 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw...so how is the ... - ryhog 11:29 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| I love the Last Ship score and the CD is a great reminder. I also like the Bridges score. I was not crazy about the Vegas score on first listen but the second time around, I liked it much more. Though I'm on the fence about buying the recording. | |
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| A review as manic as Rob McClure | |
| Posted by: | aleck 10:06 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:07 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| It was a little too much. It seemed like a studied exercise in energetic enthusiasm, unwarranted in my opinion, but suspiciously over the top for such a minor effort. However, considering he is the one who explicitly said to move this thing to Broadway, I guess he couldn't rethink his taste as a commercial producer. If this begins to sell because of this (and a few other) reviews, I'd be amazed. If it doesn't, the creative team could always tuck this review under their arms as proof that any production failure was not their fault. The most eye-popping statement from all the reviewers, however, was Linda Winer's description of Rob McClure's performance as "understated." There is one word that did not occur to me during either of the two times I witnessed this production. In the meantime, perhaps anticipating a long run, I think I'll take two tap dance lessons in case they need an understudy or replacement for Danza. | |
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| re: A review as manic as Rob McClure | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 02:15 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | A review as manic as Rob McClure - aleck 10:06 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| I gotta agree with you about this "understated" thing. Sometimes I think that the biggest problem I had with the show was McClure's manic, pushed, charmless performance. For which I think Griffin, Bergman, Brown and Jones should be held more responsible than McClure. | |
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| re: Critics almost NEVER change their minds ... | |
| Posted by: | NewtonUK 09:46 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:07 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| Brantley loved it, gushing all over it, at PAPER MILL, helping prompt the move. He's not going to admit he was wrong now. Even if he thought so. Which he might not. | |
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| And when they do... | |
| Posted by: | AC126748 10:10 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Critics almost NEVER change their minds ... - NewtonUK 09:46 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| The direction is often negative to positive. If I recall correctly, this is what happened with Brantley and Once: he warmly received the Broadway transfer after initially penning a tepid appraisal of the NYTW staging. | |
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| re: And when they do... | |
| Posted by: | SidL 05:21 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | And when they do... - AC126748 10:10 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Kevin Kelly gave "La Cage" a rave in the Boston Globe when it opened at the Colonial. But the last Sunday of the run he wrote a "On Second Thought" piece in the Sunday Globe. I think he was back-peddling and trying to cover himself just in case it tanked with the critics in New York. | |
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| re: And when they do... | |
| Posted by: | Budinsky 02:14 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | And when they do... - AC126748 10:10 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| After giving THE LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA a tepid review and admitting that he did not like the show on a THEATER TALK appearance soon after, Brantley remarked in his review of SOUTH PACIFIC: "Mr. Sher, who heralded the return of full-blown lyricism to musicals with his exquisite production of Adam Guettel and Craig Lucas’s 'Light in the Piazza' several years ago..." One of countless examples as to why I don't trust Brantley and dislike his insipid reviews. | |
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| re: And when they do... | |
| Posted by: | davei2000 03:15 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: And when they do... - Budinsky 02:14 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| He's talking about Bartlett Sher's work there, not The Light in the Piazza as a whole. A "sumptuous production" ("pretty but confused")in the original review becomes an "exquisite production" later. Not so bold a contradiction. | |
| Link | http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/theater/reviews/19ligh.html |
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| re: And when they do... | |
| Posted by: | Budinsky 11:56 am EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | re: And when they do... - davei2000 03:15 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| Within the context of his rave review of SOUTH PACIFIC, Brantley offers praise for Sher's direction by citing his work on another musical. The inference is that he is making reference to another Sher production that he admired. Further, Brantley not only commends Sher's previous staging of THE LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA but refers to that work as "the return of full-blown lyricism to musicals," which -- to me, at any rate -- doesn't sound like a description of a show that he originally dismissed. Of course, I could simply be leaping to my own conclusion based on my low opinion of Brantley. So be it. I stand by my assessment. | |
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| re: And when they do... | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 11:01 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | And when they do... - AC126748 10:10 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| In this situation, of course, the show could actually have improved. In any case, I find this notion of "admitting you were wrong" ridiculous when it is pretty obvious that most people are just expressing their own honestly-acquired reaction to a show and not suffering from some psychological defect that prompts a dishonest reaction to be expressed. | |
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| re: And when they do... | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 02:11 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: And when they do... - ryhog 11:01 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| I found Brantley's turnaround on Once a bit odd. I wouldn't have found it odd if he'd said that he simply liked it more on a second viewing. That happens. It's happened to me. It's probably happened to lots of people. But his attempts to make it seem like the show had improved in some mystical, indefinable sort of way and . . . I don't really know what he said, even after re-reading it. It's OK to just say, "I liked it more the second time." | |
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| re: And when they do... | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 02:46 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: And when they do... - AlanScott 02:11 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| Those of us who go to the theatre a lot know that, sometimes, we don't like a show for extraneous reasons. Sometimes we just don't feel great, and we have trouble concentrating. I'll admit that but I am not sure a published critic can be expected to. (And before anyone says it is their job not to let how they feel interfere, I say bullshit. And I would say the same about an actor who performs when they aren't at the top of their game.) I also think there is a second category, which is the show that you have trouble following the first time through, and therefore don't enjoy, but that plays much better the second. And then there are the shows that are actually working better after more time on its feet. I agree with you that it ought to be ok to just say I liked it better the second time, but I think there is a motivation for trying to explain it in some more observed way. | |
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| re: Critics almost NEVER change their minds ... | |
| Posted by: | MockingbirdGirl 10:09 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Critics almost NEVER change their minds ... - NewtonUK 09:46 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Brantley is one of the few critics I can think of who did admit changing his mind when he re-evaluated Mamma Mia. But I would hardly expect that to happen in the space of a single year. | |
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| While not the rave of the Times .... | |
| Posted by: | jdm 07:59 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:07 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| Post, Daily News and Variety were generally positive too, with some reservations. Jim | |
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| re: While not the rave of the Times .... | |
| Posted by: | RDavidS 09:47 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | While not the rave of the Times .... - jdm 07:59 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| I am dumbfounded by the viciousness of some of the attacks on this show. For my take, click the link. | |
| Link | Honeymoon in Vegas |
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| re: While not the rave of the Times .... | |
| Posted by: | lowwriter 08:46 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | While not the rave of the Times .... - jdm 07:59 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Some of the mixed reviews noted the sexism and racism in the show, such as New York Magazine's Jesse Greene. Though almost all the reviews liked the score and the band, which I agree with. Newsday, USA Today, Time Out New York, and Entertainment Weekly all liked the show a lot. | |
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| Kinda cool the show is getting good reviews isn't it? | |
| Posted by: | Greg_M 12:44 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: While not the rave of the Times .... - lowwriter 08:46 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Seems people on ATC really want this show to get trashed, yet most of the critics seem to like it . . . maybe it will run past labor day | |
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| Yes! | |
| Posted by: | Jax 02:48 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | Kinda cool the show is getting good reviews isn't it? - Greg_M 12:44 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| Especially considering the glee with which it was attacked by some on this board. HONEYMOON is a slick, tuneful "tired businessman" kind of show, a throwback to musicals of four decades ago. If that's your thing -- it was mine-- you'll have a grand time. If not, hey, move on. The show is not a disaster or an embarrassment; those who labor to label it as such tell us more about themselves than they do about the show. BTW, if you go you get an overture and a band on stage. Lotta fun! | |
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| re: Yes! | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 10:41 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | Yes! - Jax 02:48 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| >> Especially considering the glee with which it was attacked by some on this board. really? because i don't think i've ever read anyone gleefully trash a show including this one. what does "gleefully trashing" a show look/sound like exactly? i didn't like the show. at all. and said so. and will again. i think it's mindless, unimaginative, mediocre and pretty much a waste of time all the way around. that - for me - is an accurate assessment and the fact that brantley loves it alters it not one whit. what part of that sounds gleeful to you? no one is going to agree with any critic all the time. i agree with brantley more often than not but not here. he acknowledges it's mindless so it isn't like we aren't seeing the same show but mindless can either be enjoyable or not. when it is you find the musical charming like he did. when it isn't you find the musical to be a piece of drivel as i did. | |
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| re: Yes! | |
| Posted by: | Jax 11:56 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Yes! - enoch10 10:41 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| " what does "gleefully trashing" a show look/sound like exactly? i didn't like the show. at all. and said so. and will again. i think it's mindless, unimaginative, mediocre and pretty much a waste of time all the way around. that - for me - is an accurate assessment and the fact that brantley loves it alters it not one whit. what part of that sounds gleeful to you?" Pretty much all of it. I mean, if you said it once before, why is it so important to say it again? Some people, including the majority of the critics, like a show you didn't. Is that really such a biggie? | |
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| re: Yes! | |
| Posted by: | Ann 04:55 am EST 01/18/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Yes! - Jax 11:56 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| He doesn't sound happy to me. Is it okay if people who like a show say it repeatedly? | |
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| re: Yes! | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 12:11 am EST 01/18/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Yes! - Jax 11:56 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| i repeated it because you seem to find a tone of "gleeful" in it, where is that exactly? dour, maybe. cynical. maybe. gleeful? no. unless i'm missing something. if so, which part was the gleeful part again? some people don't like a show you do. why must their opinion be disparaged? the implication being they didn't dislike it on valid grounds they just trashed the show for the fun of trashing a show. i call bullshit. if you can provide evidence to the contrary, go right ahead. right after you point out how the quote of mine you post can be described as "gleeful," | |
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| re: Yes! | |
| Posted by: | BrianJ 10:55 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Yes! - enoch10 10:41 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| I'd say many of the reviews quoted by Ken Mandelbaum at the beginnings of the chapters of NOT SINCE CARRIE provide examples of people gleefully trashing shows. Maybe we have different perceptions of it, though, since I feel like it's a phenomenon I've encountered often in my life (from both professional critics and civilian audience members/online posters) whereas you don't feel you've ever encountered it. | |
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| re: Yes! | |
| Posted by: | RDavidS 09:39 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | Yes! - Jax 02:48 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| Right on, Jax! | |
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| Once again | |
| Posted by: | Ann 01:22 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | Kinda cool the show is getting good reviews isn't it? - Greg_M 12:44 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| Most people who don't like it don't "want this show to get trashed" - they genuinely don't like it. The opinions on this show have a wider range than usual - why that is could (and has been) a topic of discussion. But the nays are not people who just want to say something bad. (and, you're one of the "people on ATC" - do you feel that way?) | |
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| re: Once again | |
| Posted by: | Greg_M 01:46 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | Once again - Ann 01:22 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| I haven't seen the show yet, so I can't say. It seems if a show is getting good reviews across the boards that should be a happy thing though | |
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| re: Once again | |
| Posted by: | Ann 01:52 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Once again - Greg_M 01:46 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| If one thinks the show is really bad, they can view the reviews as awarding bad material, and not be happy about that. I think that's understandable. | |
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| re: Once again | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 02:31 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Once again - Ann 01:52 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| And when a show that you don't think is good (and that a lot of people you know also don't think is good) gets good reviews, you may wonder if a lot of the people who see the show because of the reviews may leave the show thinking, "Well, it's going to be a long time before I shell out that kind of money, or any money, to go to the theatre again." Obviously, regular, longtime theatregoers are not likely to feel that way. But people with limited experience going to the theatre might well think something like, "If this is what's supposed to be good, maybe I just don't get theatre. Maybe theatre is just not something I like." | |
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| re: Once again | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 10:50 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Once again - AlanScott 02:31 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| i haven't read all the reviews but even if they were all highly positive - which is what brantley's is. a rave is a rare and precious thing and we haven't had one for a while - i'd be amazed if they turned it around for this. the word of mouth i'm hearing is terrible and the numbers we're all getting are worse. it's got the rest of january and all of february to get through and then an onslaught of new musicals. it's toast. not very good toast, but toast. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 11:45 pm EST 01/15/15 |
| In reply to: | What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:07 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| Or maybe he just disagrees with you. P.S. What the hell is a "floperooza?" | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 11:14 pm EST 01/15/15 |
| In reply to: | What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:07 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| Other folks liked it too, including a decent percentage of the reviews. For the record, I didn't. But different people like different things. That, my friend, is the world as we know it. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 11:45 pm EST 01/15/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - ryhog 11:14 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| Very true. And I always thinking pimping your girlfriend to pay a gambling debt is such a charming notion for a musical. Makes me wanna sing and dance. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | keikekaze 03:58 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:45 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| It sounds to me like comedy may just not be your thing. Or irony. Or a layered point of view. I don't mean to address this comment solely to you, but it fits here. It's addressed to all the people who are boo-hooing because they think the show isn't taking a politically correct approach to a farce about gangsters in Vegas. Where, oh where, is Mary Poppins when we need her? | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 10:52 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - keikekaze 03:58 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| >> Or irony. Or a layered point of view. or proofreading. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | keikekaze 04:40 pm EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - enoch10 10:52 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| >> Or irony. Or a layered point of view. or proofreading. ??? | |
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| It received the rave it deserved. | |
| Posted by: | summertheater 11:57 pm EST 01/15/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:45 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| I absolutely loved the show as did the people I overheard at intermission. The songs, plot, and tap dance extravaganza by Tony Danza made for a fun matinee. If you loved recent Broadway shows like Ghost, Priscilla and The Wedding Singer as much as I did, you'll probably enjoy this just as much. | |
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| re: It received the rave it deserved. | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 11:05 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | It received the rave it deserved. - summertheater 11:57 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| And there's the recommendation I need to stay away. I thought Priscilla was awful. The Wedding Singer was just OK. And what I've heard and seen of Ghost made me positive I'd never ever see it. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: It received the rave it deserved. | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 10:54 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: It received the rave it deserved. - MikeR 11:05 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| >> And there's the recommendation I need to stay away. i'm assuming the post is satire. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Well I loathed GHOST and THE WEDDING SINGER... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 11:58 pm EST 01/15/15 |
| In reply to: | It received the rave it deserved. - summertheater 11:57 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| So let's not go to the theatre together.:) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 11:56 pm EST 01/15/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:45 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| There have been other leading characters in hit musicals who behave in similarly unpleasant (or even worse) ways. (I wouldn't actually say that Jack pimps his girlfriend.) It's all in how it's handled. And I don't say that to defend the show, which I didn't like. "Makes me wanna sing and dance." But no one expects or wants the audience to sing and dance. Except maybe at Mamma Mia, Jersey Boys, Motown . . . well, I guess I take that back. But in general all that matters is whether we believe that the characters would sing (and possibly dance). | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Yes indeed. We exit savoring the song and dance of others. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 05:54 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - AlanScott 11:56 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| Spot on. We are exhilarated by the idea of emotion, positive or negative, being expressed through song and dance. We are transported, momentarily, by the idea that human experience can be distilled thus: to a stylized, isolated presentation of something felt within. "Rose's Turn" and "Music and the Mirror" provide insights that may well cover our own parallel epiphanies, but don't generally create envy about the means of expression. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 11:57 pm EST 01/15/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - AlanScott 11:56 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| I only meant that I don't really think these characters wanted to sing and dance either. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 12:15 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:57 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| Whatever my problems with the show (and I sure had them), I had no problem buying them singing and dancing. I mean, if Sweeney, Mrs. Lovett, Jud Fry, Vera Simpson, C. C. Baxter, J. D. Sheldrake, Finch, Joey Evans (in his book songs), Billy Bigelow, Jigger Craigin, Rose, Aldonza, Roxie Hart, Velma Kelly and Billy Flynn can sing, I don't see why Jack and the other characters in Honeymoon in Vegas can't. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 01:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - AlanScott 12:15 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Except the characters you mention inspired great songs. These characters didn't. So yeah, there are songs. There are notes and yup they're singing. But to what effect? The whole thing a tepid snooze fest. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 01:36 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 01:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| You are confounding too unrelated things. On the one hand, you are just telling everyone (again) that you really hated the show; on the other, you are suggesting that there is something about the characters in this show that do not conduce singing and dancing. That is a separate matter from your like/dislike of the project. If you want to have an intelligent discussion about what makes some subjects poor choices for musicalization, then have at it, but you take the wind out of the sails of any legitimate argument you might make when you start talking about snooze fests and the like. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 02:06 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - ryhog 01:36 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| No I'm actually not. Good musicals SOAR when the music kicks in. These tunes lay there and do little to excite, move or inspire. So a snooze fest musical is a result of the characters having little that is vital or engaging to sing about. If I didn't make myself clear before - I hope I have now. Or are you just looking for an argument? You didn't like it either. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 02:14 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 02:06 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Not looking for an argument, but also not impressed with yours. There is a widespread difficulty in posts here (not just yours) in separating one's likes and dislikes from dispassionate analysis. I guess that's ok, but in the real world, it is considered kinda important to make decisions, first, based on objective factors, and only then based on one's affections and disaffections. As one of my mentors always preached, "do not love, do not hate." | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| There's more to life than "dispassionate Analysis." | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 01:37 am EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - ryhog 02:14 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| I WELCOME and EMBRACE my own passionate responses. They are why I go to the theatre. And I have a quite respectable IQ and am not without the capacity for analytical thinking. However, I'm not trying to figure out a MATH problem - I'm reacting to art. And I'd SHUDDER to live in a world where I didn't "Love" and "Hate" - kinda makes me know I'm ALIVE. And you speak of "decisions." I'm not making a decision. I'm having a REACTION. Frankly, most of my reactions to new musicals lately have been boredom. (A lot of what I felt at HONEYMOON in Vegas) So actually a good STRONG reaction either way would be welcome. But I do suspect that when I can't WAIT for a show to be over - as was the case with this - that something is missing. HATING it would have been better - at least it would have made a lasting impression. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Of course there is | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 03:29 pm EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | There's more to life than "dispassionate Analysis." - 2hrsOfJustPow 01:37 am EST 01/17/15 |
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| But you still seem oblivious to the defect of reasoning (and pointlessness) of what you said. You can be as passionate as you want, but that does not alter the fact that when you posit your personal like or dislike of something as your premise, the resulting conclusion is not intellectually sound. You haven't told us a damn thing other than that you didn't like the show, its characters, its songs. That's not only superficial but circular and, like I said, I am not impressed. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| And if I'm guilty of a "pointless" post... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 01:34 am EST 01/18/15 |
| In reply to: | Of course there is - ryhog 03:29 pm EST 01/17/15 |
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| Then I'm in good company. That would account for 90 percent of what's written here. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Of course there is | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 01:32 am EST 01/18/15 |
| In reply to: | Of course there is - ryhog 03:29 pm EST 01/17/15 |
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| Well I could point out that the songs sound completely derivative and interesting. The Direction pedestrian and slow, the choreography totally ho-hum. The cast, under populated, (2 showgirls in a "VEGAS" show), the jokes tired and the basic premise distasteful. Is that specific enough of an argument for you. So now I'm trying to "impress" someone who didn't like the show either. Probably for the same reasons. OY. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Of course there is | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 08:16 am EST 01/18/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Of course there is - 2hrsOfJustPow 01:32 am EST 01/18/15 |
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| It puts a little meat on the bones of your opinion, but you are still oblivious to the fact that your opinion has nothing to do with the question of how Ben could have liked this show. Once again, all you are doing is telling us that you did not like elements of the show that Ben (and others) did like. When you ask how Ben could like the show with all of the defects you list, you are assuming something that we know is untrue: that he and others who like the show agree with your premise. Manifestly, they don't. Are others here guilty of illogic similar to yours? You bet, and if that gives you comfort, go for it. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Well, like you... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 09:47 pm EST 01/18/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Of course there is - ryhog 08:16 am EST 01/18/15 |
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| I'm actually in the business. And there's A LOT of professional head-scratching going and MANY people asking the same question - so if that makes me "oblivious" - then so be it. I'm in good company. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Thank you; can't be stated enough. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 06:16 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - ryhog 02:14 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| It's the paradox of the posting impetus, how to best voice a subjective impression while holding onto enough analysis that might fairly be dubbed objective. I do know that whenever I tie my objections to any given show or play to strictly craft issues -- is a story strategically told with character goals voiced/revealed, obstacles identified, catharsis clear and resolution satisfying, to hit the all too obvious spots on the paradigm -- I make a better case for my opinion. Not that my opinion or anyone else's "matters," only that I have a chance to bring a point of view that might add specifics to a discussion of positives and negatives. If I say "interpolating 'A House is Not a Home' at the end of act one robs "Whoever You Are" of its emotional epiphanies in act two..." (PROMISES, PROMISES), I have a better chance of explaining why altering the song's allocated Chenoweth's character disrupts the balance and focus of the show than if I say, "Chenoweth sings too much and puts us to sleep." It takes more effort to parse the why in any discussion, and sometimes we fail to be clear. And sometimes we don't have the time or patience. Or investment. I get it. But attempting to raise the bar in our own posts whenever we can raises the bar on the board in general. When we shout at one another and throw around euphemisms for boredom thresholds, we are measuring subjective responses to results devoid of consideration given to artistic ambition. I always say, it takes just as much work to write a bad play as to write a good one. Sometimes, that's worth remembering as we measure the effort. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Thank you; can't be stated enough. | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 11:01 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | Thank you; can't be stated enough. - Delvino 06:16 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| >> it takes just as much work to write a bad play as to write a good one. um, no. there is such a thing as lazy writing and even smart people and good writers can do it. i'm not saying that's what HONEYMOON is. i think it's a failure but not from last of trying. but lazy writing is a real thing. it exists. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Um, you missed my whole point. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 10:28 am EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Thank you; can't be stated enough. - enoch10 11:01 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| "um, no. there is such a thing as lazy writing and even smart people and good writers can do it." "Um" yes, and you're missing my whole point. One can toil mightily and end up with a stinker of a show. Stinkers are not necessarily the result of sloth; they are sometimes (one might say often) the result of a series -- a chain reaction -- of bad creative decisions, all made with painstaking care, over time, with much thought and effort involved. A "good" show is magic because elements coalesce. A bad one can happen when those elements -- carefully assembled -- simply don't line up. If there was a scientific correlation between effort and outcome, we'd put musicals in development for a year, through ten workshops, and "know" we had a winner. How many shows toil and revise only to still end up with a hot mess? Too many. No, good and bad outcomes are not easily determined by a measure of effort. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Um, you missed my whole point. | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 01:01 pm EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | Um, you missed my whole point. - Delvino 10:28 am EST 01/17/15 |
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| Everything you say is true, but there is yet another aspect to this: sometimes, talented people without a lazy bone in their body, create something that just does not resonate with a significant audience. This happens over and over, and can relate to a story (The Last Ship) or to songs (anything by JRB) that lack widespread acceptance. The reason show business is harder than it looks is that nothing is every enough-not talent, not industry, not pure dumb luck. It takes a certain alchemy to make great theatre, and even that alchemy does not necessarily persist over time. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Um, you missed my whole point. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 02:28 pm EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Um, you missed my whole point. - ryhog 01:01 pm EST 01/17/15 |
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| That is the best stated case for the unavoidable mystery in all collaborative artistic achievement that I've read in a while. Repeatedly, we attend the presentation of new work by the most respected, admired and beloved -- the point of awe -- artists who work in the theater. When the newest offerings don't measure up, we are crestfallen and momentarily baffled. It's never a question of ambition, or effort, or application of talent. Sometimes, it simply doesn't happen. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Thank you; can't be stated enough. | |
| Posted by: | Ann 08:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | Thank you; can't be stated enough. - Delvino 06:16 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| ... it takes just as much work to write a bad play as to write a good one. I don't know that I agree there. I think shows based on movies frequently just replicate what has already been done, dressing it up with theatre accoutrements to try to repackage it. I think it takes more work to make a transformation (or to write something new). | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Thank you; can't be stated enough. | |
| Posted by: | lowwriter 10:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Thank you; can't be stated enough. - Ann 08:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| But even if they are using plot elements from the movie isn't some transformation going on by adding a score? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 08:46 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Thank you; can't be stated enough. - Ann 08:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Who has rather famously said some of the hardest work in her career has been on the libretti for SECRET GARDEN, COLOR PURPLE and BRIDGES OF MADISON COUNTY. She toiled mightily on BRIDGES, and the results were the most criticized (count me among the naysayers of her work there; the show ended 3 times at least). And her COLOR PURPLE work has been retought in the Menier edition coming to B'way. Adaptation may seem easier, but the distillation and condensation of existing material comes with its own demands and myriad challenges. That said, to your point: interesting that the IF/THEN effort wasn't given more credit for starting from scratch by more people. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | StageLover 11:09 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | Still, ask Marsha Norman. - Delvino 08:46 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Maybe that's because the book was confusing as hell, leaving many in the audience scratching their heads. Let's be honest: had IF/THEN not had Menzel, the show would have closed in two weeks. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | Ann 08:49 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | Still, ask Marsha Norman. - Delvino 08:46 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| You're right, it can be as hard but in a different way (a way which can get the writer in a new kind of trouble). Those weren't examples I was initially thinking of. But some adaptations seem very lazy. I think If/Then did get a lot of credit for being original - but it still has to be (viewed as being) good. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 09:49 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. - Ann 08:49 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| I think you can be lazy just as easily with an original story as with an adapted one. Laziness finds its owner. There is a school of thought that there are no original stories, just more obscure ones. But I think the truth is, you can come up with a story for a musical on a lazy afternoon and if you want to persist in your laziness, you can build a whole show on the "work" you did. And if we give too much credit for coming up with a supposedly original story, we (a) discredit much of the musical theatre canon and (b) suppress an evaluation of the quality of the original story, viz. If/Then or The Last Ship, with both of which I think it is fair to say most people had book issues. | |
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| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | lowwriter 12:30 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. - ryhog 09:49 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Well, Norman may be working as hard as possible on her books for musicals, they aren't very good. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | JohnPopa 12:57 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. - lowwriter 12:30 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| Which is the difficulty in judging or trying to guess intent vs. quality. I try to never say someone didn't work hard, I just say I didn't like the result! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 02:20 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. - JohnPopa 12:57 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| I think there are shows where the laziness is easily discernible. I think there are shows in which prodigious effort is displayed and the result still comes up short. People sometimes post great praise here for hard workers. But at the level we are usually talking about here, hard work is not enough; it is about talent for which hard work is not a substitute. You cannot make yourself funny by hard work, you cannot write a song people want to hear by hard work, etc. That doesn't mean you don't have to work hard because you have talent, but it does mean that (as you say) there is a disconnect between intent and quality. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | JohnPopa 08:58 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. - Ann 08:49 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Adapting a screenplay is very different from adapting a book. Not that adpating a screenplay is easy per se, but you are starting with an existing dialogue structure, which helps a lot. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| and the why.... | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 02:17 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - ryhog 02:14 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Why does it matter that you confounded your dislike and some objective criteria? Because to do so leaves folks thinking that there is something wrong with having the characters in this show (who they may well know from the film) sing and dance, and there isn't. Like Alan, of all the problems I had with the show, the fact that the characters were singing and dancing never came to mind. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 01:14 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 01:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| I'm not arguing that it's good. I was just responding to the specific objection you made. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
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