| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 11:45 pm EST 01/15/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - ryhog 11:14 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| Very true. And I always thinking pimping your girlfriend to pay a gambling debt is such a charming notion for a musical. Makes me wanna sing and dance. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | keikekaze 03:58 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:45 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| It sounds to me like comedy may just not be your thing. Or irony. Or a layered point of view. I don't mean to address this comment solely to you, but it fits here. It's addressed to all the people who are boo-hooing because they think the show isn't taking a politically correct approach to a farce about gangsters in Vegas. Where, oh where, is Mary Poppins when we need her? | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 10:52 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - keikekaze 03:58 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| >> Or irony. Or a layered point of view. or proofreading. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | keikekaze 04:40 pm EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - enoch10 10:52 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| >> Or irony. Or a layered point of view. or proofreading. ??? | |
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| It received the rave it deserved. | |
| Posted by: | summertheater 11:57 pm EST 01/15/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:45 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| I absolutely loved the show as did the people I overheard at intermission. The songs, plot, and tap dance extravaganza by Tony Danza made for a fun matinee. If you loved recent Broadway shows like Ghost, Priscilla and The Wedding Singer as much as I did, you'll probably enjoy this just as much. | |
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| re: It received the rave it deserved. | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 11:05 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | It received the rave it deserved. - summertheater 11:57 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| And there's the recommendation I need to stay away. I thought Priscilla was awful. The Wedding Singer was just OK. And what I've heard and seen of Ghost made me positive I'd never ever see it. | |
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| re: It received the rave it deserved. | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 10:54 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: It received the rave it deserved. - MikeR 11:05 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| >> And there's the recommendation I need to stay away. i'm assuming the post is satire. | |
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| Well I loathed GHOST and THE WEDDING SINGER... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 11:58 pm EST 01/15/15 |
| In reply to: | It received the rave it deserved. - summertheater 11:57 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| So let's not go to the theatre together.:) | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 11:56 pm EST 01/15/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:45 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| There have been other leading characters in hit musicals who behave in similarly unpleasant (or even worse) ways. (I wouldn't actually say that Jack pimps his girlfriend.) It's all in how it's handled. And I don't say that to defend the show, which I didn't like. "Makes me wanna sing and dance." But no one expects or wants the audience to sing and dance. Except maybe at Mamma Mia, Jersey Boys, Motown . . . well, I guess I take that back. But in general all that matters is whether we believe that the characters would sing (and possibly dance). | |
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| Yes indeed. We exit savoring the song and dance of others. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 05:54 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - AlanScott 11:56 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| Spot on. We are exhilarated by the idea of emotion, positive or negative, being expressed through song and dance. We are transported, momentarily, by the idea that human experience can be distilled thus: to a stylized, isolated presentation of something felt within. "Rose's Turn" and "Music and the Mirror" provide insights that may well cover our own parallel epiphanies, but don't generally create envy about the means of expression. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 11:57 pm EST 01/15/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - AlanScott 11:56 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| I only meant that I don't really think these characters wanted to sing and dance either. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 12:15 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 11:57 pm EST 01/15/15 |
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| Whatever my problems with the show (and I sure had them), I had no problem buying them singing and dancing. I mean, if Sweeney, Mrs. Lovett, Jud Fry, Vera Simpson, C. C. Baxter, J. D. Sheldrake, Finch, Joey Evans (in his book songs), Billy Bigelow, Jigger Craigin, Rose, Aldonza, Roxie Hart, Velma Kelly and Billy Flynn can sing, I don't see why Jack and the other characters in Honeymoon in Vegas can't. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 01:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - AlanScott 12:15 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Except the characters you mention inspired great songs. These characters didn't. So yeah, there are songs. There are notes and yup they're singing. But to what effect? The whole thing a tepid snooze fest. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 01:36 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 01:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| You are confounding too unrelated things. On the one hand, you are just telling everyone (again) that you really hated the show; on the other, you are suggesting that there is something about the characters in this show that do not conduce singing and dancing. That is a separate matter from your like/dislike of the project. If you want to have an intelligent discussion about what makes some subjects poor choices for musicalization, then have at it, but you take the wind out of the sails of any legitimate argument you might make when you start talking about snooze fests and the like. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 02:06 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - ryhog 01:36 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| No I'm actually not. Good musicals SOAR when the music kicks in. These tunes lay there and do little to excite, move or inspire. So a snooze fest musical is a result of the characters having little that is vital or engaging to sing about. If I didn't make myself clear before - I hope I have now. Or are you just looking for an argument? You didn't like it either. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 02:14 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 02:06 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Not looking for an argument, but also not impressed with yours. There is a widespread difficulty in posts here (not just yours) in separating one's likes and dislikes from dispassionate analysis. I guess that's ok, but in the real world, it is considered kinda important to make decisions, first, based on objective factors, and only then based on one's affections and disaffections. As one of my mentors always preached, "do not love, do not hate." | |
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| There's more to life than "dispassionate Analysis." | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 01:37 am EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - ryhog 02:14 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| I WELCOME and EMBRACE my own passionate responses. They are why I go to the theatre. And I have a quite respectable IQ and am not without the capacity for analytical thinking. However, I'm not trying to figure out a MATH problem - I'm reacting to art. And I'd SHUDDER to live in a world where I didn't "Love" and "Hate" - kinda makes me know I'm ALIVE. And you speak of "decisions." I'm not making a decision. I'm having a REACTION. Frankly, most of my reactions to new musicals lately have been boredom. (A lot of what I felt at HONEYMOON in Vegas) So actually a good STRONG reaction either way would be welcome. But I do suspect that when I can't WAIT for a show to be over - as was the case with this - that something is missing. HATING it would have been better - at least it would have made a lasting impression. | |
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| Of course there is | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 03:29 pm EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | There's more to life than "dispassionate Analysis." - 2hrsOfJustPow 01:37 am EST 01/17/15 |
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| But you still seem oblivious to the defect of reasoning (and pointlessness) of what you said. You can be as passionate as you want, but that does not alter the fact that when you posit your personal like or dislike of something as your premise, the resulting conclusion is not intellectually sound. You haven't told us a damn thing other than that you didn't like the show, its characters, its songs. That's not only superficial but circular and, like I said, I am not impressed. | |
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| And if I'm guilty of a "pointless" post... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 01:34 am EST 01/18/15 |
| In reply to: | Of course there is - ryhog 03:29 pm EST 01/17/15 |
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| Then I'm in good company. That would account for 90 percent of what's written here. | |
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| re: Of course there is | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 01:32 am EST 01/18/15 |
| In reply to: | Of course there is - ryhog 03:29 pm EST 01/17/15 |
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| Well I could point out that the songs sound completely derivative and interesting. The Direction pedestrian and slow, the choreography totally ho-hum. The cast, under populated, (2 showgirls in a "VEGAS" show), the jokes tired and the basic premise distasteful. Is that specific enough of an argument for you. So now I'm trying to "impress" someone who didn't like the show either. Probably for the same reasons. OY. | |
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| re: Of course there is | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 08:16 am EST 01/18/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Of course there is - 2hrsOfJustPow 01:32 am EST 01/18/15 |
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| It puts a little meat on the bones of your opinion, but you are still oblivious to the fact that your opinion has nothing to do with the question of how Ben could have liked this show. Once again, all you are doing is telling us that you did not like elements of the show that Ben (and others) did like. When you ask how Ben could like the show with all of the defects you list, you are assuming something that we know is untrue: that he and others who like the show agree with your premise. Manifestly, they don't. Are others here guilty of illogic similar to yours? You bet, and if that gives you comfort, go for it. | |
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| Well, like you... | |
| Posted by: | 2hrsOfJustPow 09:47 pm EST 01/18/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Of course there is - ryhog 08:16 am EST 01/18/15 |
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| I'm actually in the business. And there's A LOT of professional head-scratching going and MANY people asking the same question - so if that makes me "oblivious" - then so be it. I'm in good company. | |
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| Thank you; can't be stated enough. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 06:16 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - ryhog 02:14 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| It's the paradox of the posting impetus, how to best voice a subjective impression while holding onto enough analysis that might fairly be dubbed objective. I do know that whenever I tie my objections to any given show or play to strictly craft issues -- is a story strategically told with character goals voiced/revealed, obstacles identified, catharsis clear and resolution satisfying, to hit the all too obvious spots on the paradigm -- I make a better case for my opinion. Not that my opinion or anyone else's "matters," only that I have a chance to bring a point of view that might add specifics to a discussion of positives and negatives. If I say "interpolating 'A House is Not a Home' at the end of act one robs "Whoever You Are" of its emotional epiphanies in act two..." (PROMISES, PROMISES), I have a better chance of explaining why altering the song's allocated Chenoweth's character disrupts the balance and focus of the show than if I say, "Chenoweth sings too much and puts us to sleep." It takes more effort to parse the why in any discussion, and sometimes we fail to be clear. And sometimes we don't have the time or patience. Or investment. I get it. But attempting to raise the bar in our own posts whenever we can raises the bar on the board in general. When we shout at one another and throw around euphemisms for boredom thresholds, we are measuring subjective responses to results devoid of consideration given to artistic ambition. I always say, it takes just as much work to write a bad play as to write a good one. Sometimes, that's worth remembering as we measure the effort. | |
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| re: Thank you; can't be stated enough. | |
| Posted by: | enoch10 11:01 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | Thank you; can't be stated enough. - Delvino 06:16 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| >> it takes just as much work to write a bad play as to write a good one. um, no. there is such a thing as lazy writing and even smart people and good writers can do it. i'm not saying that's what HONEYMOON is. i think it's a failure but not from last of trying. but lazy writing is a real thing. it exists. | |
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| Um, you missed my whole point. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 10:28 am EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Thank you; can't be stated enough. - enoch10 11:01 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| "um, no. there is such a thing as lazy writing and even smart people and good writers can do it." "Um" yes, and you're missing my whole point. One can toil mightily and end up with a stinker of a show. Stinkers are not necessarily the result of sloth; they are sometimes (one might say often) the result of a series -- a chain reaction -- of bad creative decisions, all made with painstaking care, over time, with much thought and effort involved. A "good" show is magic because elements coalesce. A bad one can happen when those elements -- carefully assembled -- simply don't line up. If there was a scientific correlation between effort and outcome, we'd put musicals in development for a year, through ten workshops, and "know" we had a winner. How many shows toil and revise only to still end up with a hot mess? Too many. No, good and bad outcomes are not easily determined by a measure of effort. | |
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| re: Um, you missed my whole point. | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 01:01 pm EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | Um, you missed my whole point. - Delvino 10:28 am EST 01/17/15 |
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| Everything you say is true, but there is yet another aspect to this: sometimes, talented people without a lazy bone in their body, create something that just does not resonate with a significant audience. This happens over and over, and can relate to a story (The Last Ship) or to songs (anything by JRB) that lack widespread acceptance. The reason show business is harder than it looks is that nothing is every enough-not talent, not industry, not pure dumb luck. It takes a certain alchemy to make great theatre, and even that alchemy does not necessarily persist over time. | |
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| re: Um, you missed my whole point. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 02:28 pm EST 01/17/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Um, you missed my whole point. - ryhog 01:01 pm EST 01/17/15 |
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| That is the best stated case for the unavoidable mystery in all collaborative artistic achievement that I've read in a while. Repeatedly, we attend the presentation of new work by the most respected, admired and beloved -- the point of awe -- artists who work in the theater. When the newest offerings don't measure up, we are crestfallen and momentarily baffled. It's never a question of ambition, or effort, or application of talent. Sometimes, it simply doesn't happen. | |
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| re: Thank you; can't be stated enough. | |
| Posted by: | Ann 08:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | Thank you; can't be stated enough. - Delvino 06:16 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| ... it takes just as much work to write a bad play as to write a good one. I don't know that I agree there. I think shows based on movies frequently just replicate what has already been done, dressing it up with theatre accoutrements to try to repackage it. I think it takes more work to make a transformation (or to write something new). | |
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| re: Thank you; can't be stated enough. | |
| Posted by: | lowwriter 10:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Thank you; can't be stated enough. - Ann 08:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| But even if they are using plot elements from the movie isn't some transformation going on by adding a score? | |
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| Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 08:46 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Thank you; can't be stated enough. - Ann 08:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Who has rather famously said some of the hardest work in her career has been on the libretti for SECRET GARDEN, COLOR PURPLE and BRIDGES OF MADISON COUNTY. She toiled mightily on BRIDGES, and the results were the most criticized (count me among the naysayers of her work there; the show ended 3 times at least). And her COLOR PURPLE work has been retought in the Menier edition coming to B'way. Adaptation may seem easier, but the distillation and condensation of existing material comes with its own demands and myriad challenges. That said, to your point: interesting that the IF/THEN effort wasn't given more credit for starting from scratch by more people. | |
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| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | StageLover 11:09 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | Still, ask Marsha Norman. - Delvino 08:46 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Maybe that's because the book was confusing as hell, leaving many in the audience scratching their heads. Let's be honest: had IF/THEN not had Menzel, the show would have closed in two weeks. | |
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| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | Ann 08:49 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | Still, ask Marsha Norman. - Delvino 08:46 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| You're right, it can be as hard but in a different way (a way which can get the writer in a new kind of trouble). Those weren't examples I was initially thinking of. But some adaptations seem very lazy. I think If/Then did get a lot of credit for being original - but it still has to be (viewed as being) good. | |
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| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 09:49 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. - Ann 08:49 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| I think you can be lazy just as easily with an original story as with an adapted one. Laziness finds its owner. There is a school of thought that there are no original stories, just more obscure ones. But I think the truth is, you can come up with a story for a musical on a lazy afternoon and if you want to persist in your laziness, you can build a whole show on the "work" you did. And if we give too much credit for coming up with a supposedly original story, we (a) discredit much of the musical theatre canon and (b) suppress an evaluation of the quality of the original story, viz. If/Then or The Last Ship, with both of which I think it is fair to say most people had book issues. | |
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| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | lowwriter 12:30 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. - ryhog 09:49 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Well, Norman may be working as hard as possible on her books for musicals, they aren't very good. | |
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| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | JohnPopa 12:57 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. - lowwriter 12:30 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| Which is the difficulty in judging or trying to guess intent vs. quality. I try to never say someone didn't work hard, I just say I didn't like the result! | |
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| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 02:20 pm EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. - JohnPopa 12:57 pm EST 01/16/15 |
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| I think there are shows where the laziness is easily discernible. I think there are shows in which prodigious effort is displayed and the result still comes up short. People sometimes post great praise here for hard workers. But at the level we are usually talking about here, hard work is not enough; it is about talent for which hard work is not a substitute. You cannot make yourself funny by hard work, you cannot write a song people want to hear by hard work, etc. That doesn't mean you don't have to work hard because you have talent, but it does mean that (as you say) there is a disconnect between intent and quality. | |
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| re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. | |
| Posted by: | JohnPopa 08:58 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Still, ask Marsha Norman. - Ann 08:49 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Adapting a screenplay is very different from adapting a book. Not that adpating a screenplay is easy per se, but you are starting with an existing dialogue structure, which helps a lot. | |
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| and the why.... | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 02:17 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - ryhog 02:14 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| Why does it matter that you confounded your dislike and some objective criteria? Because to do so leaves folks thinking that there is something wrong with having the characters in this show (who they may well know from the film) sing and dance, and there isn't. Like Alan, of all the problems I had with the show, the fact that the characters were singing and dancing never came to mind. | |
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| re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... | |
| Posted by: | AlanScott 01:14 am EST 01/16/15 |
| In reply to: | re: What show is BEN BRANTLEY seeing??? It's certainly not the floperooza that I saw... - 2hrsOfJustPow 01:12 am EST 01/16/15 |
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| I'm not arguing that it's good. I was just responding to the specific objection you made. | |
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