| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 02:52 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - allineedisthegirl 02:18 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| Ugh...that kind of sounds awful. Yeah, I kind of think native Americans need to give stuff like this a pass. This is a 1946/1966 view of how 19th Century folks would talk. And, honestly, "Indians" is probably the kindest word that real people of the time would have had for native Americans. If you cut "I'm An Indian Too" and the fake ceremonial chanting, you're really cutting the worst of the stereotypes anyway. | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 03:13 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - JereNYC 02:52 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| "Yeah, I kind of think native Americans need to give stuff like this a pass. This is a 1946/1966 view of how 19th Century folks would talk. And, honestly, 'Indians' is probably the kindest word that real people of the time would have had for native Americans." I have very mixed feelings on this. Yes, the lyrics about "indians" in "Colonel Buffalo Bill" are, I'm sure, exactly the way most people thought of Native Americans in 1946, not to mention at the time when the action of ANNIE GET YOUR GUN takes place. And I'm sure that's how they were presented in Buffalo Bill's "wild west" show. Also, I agree that the rewrite of the lyric as presented here is awful. But --aside from calling them "Indians," the song refers to Native Americans as the aggressors killing white people, when history tells us that the truth of what happened is pretty much the opposite. And it's very difficult for modern audiences of enlightened people to accept that, even if we keep telling ourselves, "It's a period piece." | |
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| Cut-your-throat-able | |
| Posted by: | reed23 05:37 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - Michael_Portantiere 03:13 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| "The song refers to Native Americans as the aggressors killing white people, when history tells us that the truth of what happened is pretty much the opposite." The politically-correct don't have their history down any more than the purveyors of the old stereotype. A lot of people were killing a lot of people for all kinds of reasons throughout North American history from the fifteenth century on (and presumably well before.) There were fearsome inter-tribal wars between Native Americans; Native-Indian defensive killings of various European interlopers (and plenty of peaceful and trusting Native Americans trying to accommodate and/or help the Europeans.) My great-great-great-great-grandfather was tomahawked and scalped to death December 30, 1813, while holding back the British and their Native American allies, allowing soldiers and civilians to escape the Burning Of Buffalo in the "1812 War." Native Americans made different alliances with different American settlers for different goals. The overwhelming mea culpa of the later generations has blurred the forests and the trees from a complex period in history. | |
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| re: Cut-your-throat-able | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 10:56 am EDT 10/29/15 |
| In reply to: | Cut-your-throat-able - reed23 05:37 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| "The politically-correct don't have their history down any more than the purveyors of the old stereotype. A lot of people were killing a lot of people for all kinds of reasons throughout North American history from the fifteenth century on (and presumably well before.) Native Americans made different alliances with different American settlers for different goals." I'm sure that's true, and yes, I know THE LAST OF THE MOHICANS. What I'm saying is that the entire center section of the song "Colonel Buffalo Bill" is about a peaceful, innocent party of presumably white people in a stagecoach set upon by "very notable, cut-your-throatable" Indians, who then "take everyone by force." I realize it's just a song, and that it's the kind of reference to Native Americans that was heard frequently back then. But today, it's hard to take by those who understand that the Europeans basically stole this country from the natives and destroyed their culture. I'm sure there were some venal, mercenary, evil Native Americans, but that doesn't change the main plot line of the history. That's all I'm saying. | |
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| the Deadwood Stage | |
| Posted by: | showtunetrivia 12:39 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut-your-throat-able - Michael_Portantiere 10:56 am EDT 10/29/15 |
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| The section of the song specifically references what was an integral part of the Wild West show--to quote from an early program, "the attack on the Deadwood Mail Coach by Indians, and rescue by Buffalo Bill Cody and attendant cowboys." I've been researching an alternate history story recently involving Annie Oakley and World War I, so I'm surrounded by more books on the Wild West show than you can imagine. To give you the short version, the stage ran from Deadwood to Cheyenne in the late 1860's to early 1880's, carrying mail and also ore from the mines. It was attacked many times (usually by bandits, not Native Americans), and was abandoned after one such event. Cody found it, fixed it up, and devised the idea for the theatrical attack. (He knew the coach well, having driven it just after the war.). It became the highlight of the show; you can even find youtube footage of an early silent recording. I don't want to get involved in a fracas about language, but the Deadwood Stage attack, with the WWS Indians playing the villains and Cody and the cowboys the heroex, was iconic to the show. The Deadwood Stage traveled with the WWS to England, Germany, and Spain. Along with Annie's marksmanship and the cowboy tricks, it was the most memorable part of the show. If you're doing a show about the WWS, it makes sense to mention it. Maybe Berlin could have used other (less bloodthirst) descriptions, but let me assure you, the original ads and programs were far more, um, colorful. Laura, wallowing in research | |
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| re: the Deadwood Stage | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 02:01 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
| In reply to: | the Deadwood Stage - showtunetrivia 12:39 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
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| Thanks for the info. I guess that's the same Deadwood Stage that Doris Day sings about in CALAMITY JANE? | |
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| re: the Deadwood Stage | |
| Posted by: | showtunetrivia 02:15 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
| In reply to: | re: the Deadwood Stage - Michael_Portantiere 02:01 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
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| That is indeed the very same stage. Laura | |
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| re: Cut-your-throat-able | |
| Posted by: | allineedisthegirl 09:50 am EDT 10/29/15 |
| In reply to: | Cut-your-throat-able - reed23 05:37 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| This show isn't an attempt to teach American History. It's about a wild-west show where they most certainly used lines like "cut your throat-able Indians." db | |
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| re: Cut-your-throat-able | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 10:37 am EDT 10/29/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Cut-your-throat-able - allineedisthegirl 09:50 am EDT 10/29/15 |
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| "This show isn't an attempt to teach American History. It's about a wild-west show where they most certainly used lines like 'cut your throat-able Indians.'" Yes, I understand that. | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | JayBee 03:23 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - Michael_Portantiere 03:13 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| Political correctness - the new censoeshop | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | chrismpls 03:34 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - JayBee 03:23 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| There is a big difference -- as big, it sounds like, as Hilty's vibrato -- between "political correctness" and acknowledging that some once-widely-held beliefs are now unforgivably wrong. | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 03:57 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - chrismpls 03:34 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| "There is a big difference...between 'political correctness' and acknowledging that some once-widely-held beliefs are now unforgivably wrong." Yes, exactly. Thank you. If beliefs that were once widely held are now considered so wrong and so offensive that they take an audience out of a show when they rear their ugly heads, I think that's a problem. The irony of this discussion is that we're all focusing on the way the "Indians" are portrayed in ANNIE GET YOUR GUN, but no one here has brought up the ending of the show (at least in the original version), where Annie basically wins Frank's love through placating his ego by throwing their final sharp-shooting contest -- because, you know, she's a woman and he's a man, and that's the way it's supposed to be!!! Can anyone tell us if the ending was tweaked for the current presentation? I know it was rewritten for the Broadway revival. | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | w52nd 04:13 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - Michael_Portantiere 03:57 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| I've only ever seen the movie, so I don't know how other versions ended. Last night Charlie, Buffalo Bill, and Chief Sitting Bull tweak the sight on Annie's gun before the final match. She misses three shots. Frank lets him borrow his gun and she makes the next two. Then Sitting Bull pulls Annie aside and says "if you win the match you lose the man". So she decides to lose the match and keep Frank. Also I disagree with the assessment that Hilty couldn't the high notes. I thought her performance was excellent. Her vibrato was on the aggressive side, so perhaps not to everyone's taste, and it could have used a little bit more variety, but she hit the notes and was hilarious paired with the always-awesome Andy Karl. | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 04:22 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - w52nd 04:13 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| "Last night Charlie, Buffalo Bill, and Chief Sitting Bull tweak the sight on Annie's gun before the final match. She misses three shots. Frank lets him borrow his gun and she makes the next two. Then Sitting Bull pulls Annie aside and says "if you win the match you lose the man". So she decides to lose the match and keep Frank. Thanks for the details. Yes, that does sound like the original version, although I think what happens is that someone actually puts something in the muzzle (is that the right word?) of Annie's gun so that she will continually miss the moving target. What happens after that is what you described. I think Sitting Bull's line to Annie is something like, "You say you can't get man with gun, but you get man with THIS gun!" | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | w52nd 04:31 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - Michael_Portantiere 04:22 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| --"You say you can't get man with gun, but you get man with THIS gun!" Yes, I believe that was the exact line last night as well. | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 05:00 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - w52nd 04:31 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| That line is definitely in the 1966 version - not sure if it's in all of them or not. | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 06:25 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - Chromolume 05:00 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| The line is also in the movie, and although I'm not 100 percent sure, I've always assumed it's in the original script. | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | allineedisthegirl 09:51 am EDT 10/29/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - Michael_Portantiere 06:25 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| Yes I checked the 40s script. The line is there, but not Frank insisting that Annie try with his rifle. db | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 06:15 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - allineedisthegirl 09:51 am EDT 10/29/15 |
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| Interesting that the bit about Frank insisting that Annie try with his rifle isn't in the original. I think it's a really good idea to have him offer her that kindness at that moment. | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | allineedisthegirl 10:03 am EDT 10/30/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - Michael_Portantiere 06:15 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
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| I agree. It comes late in the game but goes a long way toward humanizing an otherwise two-dimensional character. db | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | allineedisthegirl 04:09 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - Michael_Portantiere 03:57 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| I'll have to check the scripts (I have the 40s and 60s versions at home). In this version Dolly Tate gets caught tampering with Annie's rifle sight. Although she is foiled, Pawnee Bill, apparently inspired by Dolly, finishes the job. During the final match, Frank realizes that there's something wrong with Annie's gun (because she's missing!) and insists that she use his. I think the intention of the author (or book doctor) here is about the delicacy of the male ego, not "that's the way it's supposed to be." Not sure which version this is. db | |
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| re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 04:12 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Not sure- song list inside; maybe that will help? - allineedisthegirl 04:09 pm EDT 10/28/15 |
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| Yes, that's a rewrite. In the original, Sitting Bull convinces Annie that she needs to throw the match to placate Frank's ego -- and she does so. | |
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