| Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | jero 06:25 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
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| there's a post below that's days old... where they raised the question of historical accuracy. So I'm guessing I'm going in to view a 'based on' show. I don't have problems with that , but I know some d.... | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | Mac29 04:30 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
| In reply to: | Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - jero 06:25 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
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| This show should never, ever be used as a teaching tool to students of any age because it does contain some blatant historical inaccuracies. It can be purely entertainment for young people, but the true story of who and what our founding fathers were and did should come from schools, teachers, and history books. | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | jero 12:13 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - Mac29 04:30 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
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| i think we should color with all the crayons in the box and if musicals can get kids more interested in history and civics more power to them. a good teacher will discuss the inaccuracies | |
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| thatsaid | |
| Posted by: | jero 12:17 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - jero 12:13 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| im going to push big for allegiance | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 06:50 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - Mac29 04:30 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
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| please identify one historical inaccuracy. Not some tangential fact that would not be in any history book. i.e., tell me something that actually matters and that informs a student's understanding of this part of our history that they get wrong. | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 04:37 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - Mac29 04:30 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
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| Um, it should absolutely be used as a teaching tool because it's getting people interested in history. Competent teachers will follow up with lessons on separating fact from fiction and viewing entertainment with a critical eye. | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | Mac29 05:08 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - MikeR 04:37 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
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| People should not have to be taken to a broadway show to become interested in American history. Our history should be, and in many cases is, taught in schools in the most accurate manner possible long before children are of the age to attend and understand historical references portrayed in a broadway musical. The teaching of the events and people that founded our country must be presented to our young people in the most accurate way possible. You are not going to get this information by watching Hamilton. I agree that a competent teacher can separate fact from fiction, but in Hamilton there is some fact and some fiction that must be discussed with our young people so that they are correctly informed. | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 07:44 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - Mac29 05:08 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
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| >People should not have to be taken to a broadway show to become interested in American history. That's a lovely straw man you've constructed. Find me one person who said that "people should have to be taken to a Broadway show to become interested in American history." But surely even you can't deny that if someone isn't interested in history but becomes interested as a result of seeing a Broadway show, that's a good thing. Right? | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | ntjvy 05:35 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - Mac29 05:08 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
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| I feel like you're making some assumptions here that I don't necessarily agree with. I don't think anyone anywhere is arguing that students "have to be taken to a broadway show" (oh the misery of that) in order to "become interested in American history". But it is one way that students could become more interested in history, or feel more connected to history. It seems that you're assuming (and I maybe wrong here) that the study of history stops, or should stop with facts and dates, but that it only part of the picture. I said it before and I'll say it again, analysis and source evaluation skills are key for creating strong history students. Without these skills no source is valuable to them once they leave the classroom. Hamilton is a wonderful opportunity for students to do the following as part of a broader unit. It allows them to look at history from a unique vantage point told with a voice that they can relate to, and gives them an opportunity to practice their source evaluation skills. I haven't seen anyone anywhere claim that it should be the one and only experience regarding Federalism, The Constitution and Alexander Hamilton in a child's educational career. | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | ntjvy 04:51 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - MikeR 04:37 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
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| I agree! As a history teacher, the idea that it shouldn't act like a teaching tool is beyond my understanding. It shouldn't be used as the ONLY teaching tool to teach about the era, but it is certainly a valuable teaching tool. Also, competent teachers will not only follow up with lessons, but will have had their students practicing source assessment skills prior to introducing it in the classroom. My high school juniors watched the clip from the White House Poetry Jam and then spent time assessing the values and limitations of the clip for history students, a skill that they also practice with textbooks, lectures, documentaries and primary source documents. If you teach kids how to think for themselves and provide them tools for skillful historical analysis you significantly broaden your teaching tool kit. Without the skills you have to eliminate all sorts of resources from the classroom. (World War II propaganda or the book All Quiet on the Western Front come to mind off the bat.) | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | JAllenC3 09:15 am EDT 10/30/15 |
| In reply to: | Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - jero 06:25 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
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| As one of the people who participated in that other thread, I would say the show is truthful even if not 100% factual. As a piece of entertainment I have no problem with truth over facts. My only concern was using it as an educational tool might imply to the students that it is completely factual. | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | katey 03:05 pm EDT 10/30/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - JAllenC3 09:15 am EDT 10/30/15 |
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| I think that it's use as an "educational tool" is to pique interest in Hamilton and American history in general. It probably will encourage further study. I think it will make history come alive for them. Like watching the movie Romeo+Juliet (not 100% accurate to the Shakespearean text) and then reading the play and really being able to understand it. | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | MikeR 06:47 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
| In reply to: | Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - jero 06:25 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
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| I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there has never been a musical, film, or TV show based on actual events that has been 100% accurate. You can't tell entire story of a person's life in three hours without compressing the narrative. People would be foolish to go into this show (or any other) expecting a documentary. | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | Chazwaza 07:58 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - MikeR 06:47 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
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| To say nothing of the fact that most of recorded "history" comes with a filter and slant, and most endeavoring to tell the story of an event, let's say, even with the intention to be accurate, do not and often cannot include the truths from all sides... to say nothing of those people relying on historical records and letters etc for their accuracy, which they may not be. | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 08:50 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - Chazwaza 07:58 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
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| I agree. I'll add 2 points (one of which I kinda said once before). 1. The essential history is accurate. It is not "based on." For anyone who wants to make a list of things that were changed (forgetting about the obvious ones that are inherent in the notion of the show), I would suggest asking whether the item has a place in the actual narrative of American history. Example: was Hamilton's mother a whore? Does the answer to that question have any status in the history of our country? No. To me, what we are seeing with a lot of these questions is the same sort of "can't see the forest for the trees" nitpicking that makes ATC so amusing. 2. One of Chernow's themes, brought forward in full regalia in the play, is that the narrative was hijacked by those who survived Hamilton and wielded power. In addition to being white me and (to a large extent) slaveowners, they clearly deified Jefferson and marginalized Hamilton. The gilt on the TJ image has been tarnishing for a number of years now, and with Hamilton (book and show) the significance of Hamilton is becoming better known. (And by the way, Hamilton is not without criticism: he bears some responsibility for all of these too big to fail banks we have, and their relationship with the NY Fed among other things.) So yes, history is always slanted, and what is ideal is a world made up of folks smart enough to read and absorb everything, and then figure out what to believe. (No different, as it happens, from what is ideal when we talk about students of the theatre.) | |
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| re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? | |
| Posted by: | ntjvy 06:40 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
| In reply to: | Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - jero 06:25 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
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| It's obviously incredibly well researched but there are definite tweaks or reductions to the historical narrative in order to serve the theatrical narrative. Possible small spoilers below Some examples of the altered narrative: there are people present at events when maybe they weren't in reality (Lauren's physical path during the war), events are reordered or merged, words are used to convey sentiment rather than historical accuracy (Hamilton's mother being called a "whore" comes to mind), and some intricate storylines are reduced (Election of 1800 and the placing of the US capital in DC). | |
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| Hamilton's mother. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 12:12 pm EDT 10/31/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton-documentary vs show based on history? - ntjvy 06:40 pm EDT 10/29/15 |
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| In Chernow, it's clear that in the patriarchal colonial culture, Hamilton's mother Rachel, initially fleeing St. Croix, was a (sexual behavior determined:) "pariah." She was imprisoned on a technicality (twice an adulterer), branded a "scarlet woman, given to sinful life" as Cherow states. One of Alexander's nemeses, a journalist, even referred to him as "son of a camp-girl." Of course that's sexist hogwash. Yet the show captures the way people at the time viewed women who had any sexual liaisons outside of church approved marriage. It's critical to contextualize her struggles in light of the way women were marginalized if found to be anything but monogamous. To me, it makes perfect sense for this to be translated very accurately into "whore" in Burr's narrative voice. | |
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| re: Hamilton's mother. | |
| Posted by: | ntjvy 01:54 pm EDT 10/31/15 |
| In reply to: | Hamilton's mother. - Delvino 12:12 pm EDT 10/31/15 |
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| I've read Chernow's Alexander Hamilton too and I agree with everything that you have said, thank you for elaborating. I think there are two ways to discuss accuracy of a fictionalized piece: 1. Is the portrayal historically accurate? In this instance we would argue yes, for all of the reasons you cited, it makes perfect sense for Burr to call Hamilton's mother a "whore". 2. Is the content provided by the characters historically accurate? In this case no, Burr is not a reliable narrator on this topic. He is factually inaccurate. The same happens with the mention of Martha Washington's cat. I'm by no means claiming that these are poor choices for the piece, but when someone is wondering about accuracy, and with all of this chat about "teaching tool", it's worth noting. | |
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| re: Hamilton's mother. | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 12:25 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton's mother. - ntjvy 01:54 pm EDT 10/31/15 |
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| Do you think either of these points is something that is "taught" about the history of the founding fathers? How does it differ from an inaccuracy as to the color of someone's eyes? I think this is just 1st class nitpicking. | |
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| re: Hamilton's mother. | |
| Posted by: | ntjvy 05:31 pm EST 11/02/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton's mother. - ryhog 12:25 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| No, I can't imagine that either of these points are things that are taught about Alexander Hamilton in a typical curriculum. At least on my end though, it also isn't nitpicking, because it isn't "picking" at all. I don't find these points problematic, but they are historically inaccurate. I think it's interesting to think about how the facts are manipulated for the benefit of the narration. The purpose of Hamilton isn't to convey a set of historical accuracies, so my indicating that I don't think that it does convey a set of historical accuracies is by no means an insult or "nitpicking", just an observation. | |
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| Burr as unreliable narrator. | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 02:05 pm EDT 10/31/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Hamilton's mother. - ntjvy 01:54 pm EDT 10/31/15 |
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| Ah, thank you for nailing what for me is one of the most under-appreciated aspects of the show: that intermittent unreliable narration. Burr's chip on his shoulder is established in the opening lines, and means he frames the entire trajectory from his POV. Not alone, of course. By the time we get to "And me, I'm the damned fool who shot him" early on, we know we're in for a slanted but profoundly focused and accessible take on the title character and history in general. For me "Wait for It" in act one takes this concept even deeper. It's why this work is so layered. | |
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