| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 08:59 am EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Kerick 04:24 am EST 11/01/15 |
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| As others have said, nothing is liked by everyone and not liking something that most like requires no apology. That said, there is not "so much narrative" in absolute terms, and besides, since when do we pretend Aristotle defines and constrains what we do on a stage? I am surprised you did not recognize the depth and drama in the show's scenes because I think one of the show's hallmarks is that it manages so much of both across so wide a spectrum. (This is not a show in which the characters are a parade of cardboard cutouts.) I skipped over your pacing and energy comment because I think that is what many love about the show, but it is also something subjective. And I suppose so is how well each of us hears. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 11:50 am EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - ryhog 08:59 am EST 11/01/15 |
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| Spot on analysis, every word. EVITA is perhaps predominately narrative, via Che, while HAMILTON carves up the action into scenes of every size and shape, and daringly even offers two takes on the same events, in record time. It begins with a point of access provided by an unreliable narrator, the compassionately drawn antagonist of Burr, shifts to the POVs of others, and still manages to burrow deep into the introspection of the title character. All the while showing, rather than telling. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 12:18 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Delvino 11:50 am EST 11/01/15 |
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| A few more observations. The opening song provides the context, pre-history, setting of the play in what could be called narrative or presentational form. Not unlike what a chorus does in the Greeks, or a prologue does in Shakespeare. Burr's periodic "narration" is actually something else entirely. It is an ongoing illumination of what he is thinking as his character evolves. And that arc is totally story and totally drama and totally necessary. There is another place where I have read comments that there is "commenting" and that's in It's Quiet Uptown. But what is being said by others there is in character-based on what they were observing, not some external editorializing by LMM. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 03:32 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - ryhog 12:18 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| It does seem to me that some of the criticism of HAMILTON is all about people trying to make themselves sound intelligent, and has no basis in the actual show. A critique has no value if it contains factually inaccurate statements about the content of a show -- for example, the comment here about the show being "heartless," and the critique of one reviewer that the Hamilton character as written and played is a cipher whose motivations are unclear. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 09:40 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Michael_Portantiere 03:32 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| A critique has no value if it contains factually inaccurate statements about the content of a show -- for example, the comment here about the show being "heartless"... But "heartless" is an opinion, not a question of fact. You (and many of us) may not agree with that assessment of the show, but if the poster feels that the show has no heart, that's his/her opinion. I've heard people say things like that, time to time, about shows I personally find very moving. (Some of the Sondheim shows, for instance.) It's hard to convince someone that a show has "heart" if it doesn't move them emotionally. But that's the beauty and mystery of art - we all see it differently. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 11:49 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Chromolume 09:40 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| "But 'heartless' is an opinion, not a question of fact." I know what you mean, but so much of HAMILTON is concerned with the characters' emotions about what's happening that I don't understand how anyone can hold the opinion that the show is "heartless." Even if someone thinks those emotions somehow feel false -- and I can't understand that, either -- I don't believe "heartless" is the word to use. The same goes for Sondheim's shows. And I suspect the people who find those shows heartless are the same ones who think "Sondheim can't write a melody." Yes, it's an opinion that Sondheim can't write a melody, but any opinion needs some basis in factual reality. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | Chromolume 12:13 am EST 11/02/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Michael_Portantiere 11:49 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| Well, I think it comes down to semantics. "Sondheim can't write a melody" isn't factual, but "I don't hear satisfying melodies in Sondheim's shows" is opinion. "Heartless" may go against what you see as the substance of Hamilton but "I don't feel the heart in it" is an entitled opinion, even if you can't understand how someone would say that. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 10:57 am EST 11/02/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Chromolume 12:13 am EST 11/02/15 |
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| "'Heartless' may go against what you see as the substance of Hamilton but 'I don't feel the heart in it' is an entitled opinion, even if you can't understand how someone would say that." Fair enough, but I think there's quite a big difference between saying a show is "heartless" and saying "I don't feel the heart in it." Someone might say, "I wasn't moved by A CHORUS LINE because I don't relate to the characters," but would anyone ever describe that show as "heartless?" So I think you're right that it comes down to semantics, but also, I think it's a good thing to be careful in choosing one's words, especially when being critical of something. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | jero 09:47 pm EST 11/02/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Michael_Portantiere 10:57 am EST 11/02/15 |
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| I'm still analyzing how I feel and think... and my heartless comment.... well for me a show has heart when I'm made to feel what the actors are feeling.. I'm not hearing about or being told about what they're going through, I feel with them... it's not the same thing as a character having convictions but it's similar. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 11:43 pm EST 11/02/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - jero 09:47 pm EST 11/02/15 |
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| Although there is quite a bit of narration in HAMILTON, and several instances of characters telling us what happens or has happened offstage, there are also a great many scenes of characters experiencing emotions in the moment as events are occurring. If you were "not made to feel what the actors are feeling" (I think you meant the characters), that's your experience and it's valid, but your description of the storytelling is misleading. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | jero 05:03 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Michael_Portantiere 03:32 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| funny you should mention "people trying to make themselves sound intelligent." there were people around me snorting with laughter at almost every little bit of wit. I figured they knew people in the cast. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 05:51 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - jero 05:03 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| now you are just sounding like someone who is carping because others liked something more than you did. I was with you up to this point, because I can understand how a show can simply not resonate for someone, whether it is because of style, subject matter or whatever. I've been there many times. I am also the guy who has said hundreds of times that theatre has to resonate over a broad spectrum to succeed. That doesn't mean it has to succeed for everyone, and perhaps now you can understand what I mean when I say that shows with my grandmother's music hardly ever resonate for me. I don't think you will deny that this show is succeeding over a broad spectrum, and not because everyone knows someone in the cast. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | jero 07:30 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - ryhog 05:51 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| I'll stop ( I hope) but I don't think I'm carping, just putting out there what was going on in my mind at the time. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 09:55 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - jero 07:30 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| I have no problem with hearing what's in your mind. My problem was when you started telling us about the motivations of the folks sitting around you. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | Ann 03:57 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Michael_Portantiere 03:32 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| ... some of the criticism of HAMILTON is all about people trying to make themselves sound intelligent But everyone's allowed to have their own opinion, right? If there ever was a show that isn't permitted to be criticized, it's this one. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 05:30 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Ann 03:57 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| It is "permissible" to criticize the show. Some people think there's too much rap in the show (or don't like rap at all), or they don't like the types of near-rhymes used in lyrics, or they feel it's sometimes hard to keep up with the story because so many words are being sung or spoken so quickly. Those are all valid opinions based on the actual show. But it seems to me, as to ryhog, that some of the criticisms here aren't supported by anything in the writing. I guess you could say that's my opinion, but since I'm talking about what is or is not present in the content of the show, to me it's much more objective than subjective. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | Ann 10:34 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Michael_Portantiere 05:30 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| From your other comments, it seems these things you refer to as being in the content are subjective eye-of-the-beholder things, not facts. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 06:05 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Michael_Portantiere 05:30 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| I think the point may be that content does not "land" the same for everyone, and that is where the subjectivity comes in. I know that's the case for me. There are shows that are liked generally that just absolutely don't work for me. And I think that most of the regulars here have expressed exactly the same thing at one time or another. If something blows right by you without being absorbed, in your reality, it is not there, even through it is certainly in the script. And while we kinda hope critics are picking up most all of the content, even that is not always the case. I also think that sometimes what resonates depends on our own background. Will Hamilton mean as much to a person from another country? We don't know yet. I have a friend who remarked the other day that he wondered if Hamilton would be viewed differently by someone who has never been on the subway in New York. that's a good question too. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 12:02 am EST 11/02/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - ryhog 06:05 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| "I think the point may be that content does not 'land' the same for everyone, and that is where the subjectivity comes in." Again, very well phrased, and very cogent. I would say that Hamilton's motivations, for example, are definitely present in the text of the show, but it's possible that they just don't "land" for certain audience members -- whether because those people have trouble hearing some of the lyrics, or aren't paying full attention, or don't understand what's being said, or maybe just because they don't think the writing is effective in those sections. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | jero 06:38 am EST 11/02/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Michael_Portantiere 12:02 am EST 11/02/15 |
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| Any comments on WHY someone might not be 'paying full attention?" theoretically? | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 09:30 am EST 11/02/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - jero 06:38 am EST 11/02/15 |
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| There are more possible reasons than there are founding fathers. They can range from the unrelated (sick, tired, angry, drunk, etc.) to the related (disinterested in subject, don't like the music, prefer shows that entertain without requiring so much attention, etc.) | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | jero 11:01 am EST 11/02/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - ryhog 09:30 am EST 11/02/15 |
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| how about boredom? for me, I liked the music. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | ryhog 01:47 pm EST 11/02/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - jero 11:01 am EST 11/02/15 |
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| I think both of the other "related" examples I gave speak to boredom. Boredom, of course, can also be a personal problem. Teachers will tell you that even the most un-boring teachers bore students in two categories-those too dumb for the subject matter and those too smart for it. (And I am not in the least suggesting you fall in either of those categories.) | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 12:30 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - ryhog 12:18 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| Such an important observation. Part of the poignant brilliance of "It's Quiet Uptown" is the use of Angelica as the access to this family's grief. In an interesting way, the verses are part of an overall arc for Angelica, as she is estranged from Alexander during the Reynolds affair, and then must mend her own heart as she relays the mending of the even more deeply broken hearts of Alexander and Eliza. I daresay, "It's Quiet Uptown" wouldn't be as powerful without Angelica's gravitas, and the eloquent words she sings are in sync with here demonstrated intellect and compassion (in contemporary parlance, perhaps her emotional I.Q.) elsewhere in the show. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | jero 05:10 pm EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - Delvino 12:30 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| 'she relays the mending of the even more deeply broken hearts of A and E." with 'eloquent words.' So are you saying a secondary character informed me of the rending of the relationship and the depth of their pain? If so , that might be why I wasn't drawn in to Hamilton as so many were. I prefer to be swept to that painful place with lush orchestrations and severe acting and for whatever reason, I didn't experience that. I bought the cd (before I went in) and intend on listening so maybe I'll soften up on it. | |
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| The orchestrations is "Hamilton" | |
| Posted by: | Delvino 09:30 pm EST 11/02/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - jero 05:10 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| Are exquisite. The piano prelude in "It's Quiet Uptown" is simply perfection. So haunting, eloquent. Musical theater at its simplest and most evocative. Perfect, and not in any way less than the form demands. But listen to "Take a Break." This score is in many ways very traditional. Yes, I said it. | |
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| re: The orchestrations is "Hamilton" | |
| Posted by: | jero 09:52 pm EST 11/02/15 |
| In reply to: | The orchestrations is "Hamilton" - Delvino 09:30 pm EST 11/02/15 |
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| I've started to listen... i think 6 of the first 9 songs end with the same button. it's annoying... by the way save your money on the cd.. I bought it thinking there would be show pics and tidbits in the packaging... but the only thing in the booklets are the lyrics.. not a photo.. NOTHING. just down load it... | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | ashleylm 02:24 pm EST 11/02/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - jero 05:10 pm EST 11/01/15 |
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| I prefer to be swept to that painful place with lush orchestrations and severe acting Did you see Dr Zhivago? Sounds right up your alley. Painful, lush, and severe, lots of emotion all over the place, not remotely Brechtian. | |
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| re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? | |
| Posted by: | Michael_Portantiere 10:01 am EST 11/01/15 |
| In reply to: | re: Did I miss something at HAMILTON? - ryhog 08:59 am EST 11/01/15 |
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| Very well phrased, ryhog. | |
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