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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 01:44 am EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: 1776 film - Circlevet 11:23 pm EDT 07/04/17 | |
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| There are some badly directed sections, yes. But personally I think that much more of it is good than is not good. Once you get past "The Lees of Old Virginia," I find it fairly smooth sailing, at least most of the time. I think some of it is quite well filmed. | |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:23 am EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - AlanScott 01:44 am EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| To me, the filming of ''Molasses to Rum'' is a disaster. But I agree: Other parts are well-filmed. Interestingly, ''1776's'' solo Oscar nomination was for Harry Stradling Jr.'s cinematography. Yet the fact that ''1776'' got made as a movie, thanks to Jack Warner, is a minor miracle (tho' it bombed at the box office). I'm so glad that William Daniels, Howard DaSilva, etc., had their priceless performances preserved for posterity. The movie uses much of the Broadway cast, but does anyone know why Betty Buckley didn't get to play Martha? Similarly, Paul Hecht didn't get to reprise his role as Dickinson. (I was so glad to see ''Cool, Cool Considerate Men'' restored.) I once knew Ed Lyndeck, who told me about the New Brunswick section of ''1776'' that got cut out of town. Alas, I didn't get to ask Ed, who played Rev. Witherspoon on Broadway, why he didn't get to do the movie. |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 03:42 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - WaymanWong 02:23 am EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| I'm OK with the way the "Molasses to Rum" was filmed. Lyndeck moved on to Dr. Lyman Hall during the Broadway run, and then he took over as John Dickinson on tour, replacing Patrick Hines who had replaced George Hearn when Hearn moved to the Broadway production to replace David Ford (who had replaced Paul Hecht) when Ford left to make the movie in his original role of Hancock. I know that's a lot to pack into one sentence. :) On Broadway, he also understudied Jefferson, Dr. Lyman Hall (natch), Charles Thomson and Stephen Hopkins! I don't know how many of those roles he ever went on in, but decades later he played Hopkins at the Pittsburgh CLO. I like Danner in the film, even though she obviously doesn't sing the song in anything like the way Buckley did. She was a Tony winner and a bigger name than Buckley. |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: bearcat 04:09 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - AlanScott 03:42 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| was Betty Bucklye nominated for a Tony, I know I could look this up if so, it's interesting that Marian Mercer won that year for a (also) basically one scene performance |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:17 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - bearcat 04:09 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| Virginia Vestoff was nominated but not Buckley, along with Sandy Duncan for Canterbury Tales (she'd gotten raves) and Lorraine Serabian for Zorbá. Of course, Serabian had also gotten raves. So it was a very competitive category. | |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: castdiva 01:51 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - WaymanWong 02:23 am EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| Jack Warner was fine with using most of the original cast if they agreed to re-cast the two women. Tammy Grimes was cast as Abigail and Blythe Danner was cast as Martha. Tammy Grimes turned out to be such a problem during pre-production that they fired her and gave the role to Virginia Vestoff. | |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 02:17 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:15 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - castdiva 01:51 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| Fascinating. Did Warner ever mention why he wanted the roles of Abigail and Martha recast? ... Never heard that about Tammy Grimes. I Googled and found one source that says that Blythe was a good friend of Peter Hunt's. And that would turn out to be a blessing for both of them ... and Ken Howard. Ken and Blythe became good friends, co-starring in the 1973 TV comedy series, ''Adam's Rib'' (based on the 1949 Hepburn-Tracy movie). And Hunt directed 10 episodes of that. ... Plus, Blythe's husband, Bruce Paltrow, cast Howard in ''The White Shadow'' (1978-81). |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: castdiva 03:26 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - WaymanWong 02:15 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| It was something about wanting up and comers and not unknowns in the roles. I was actually friends with Virginia at the time and went thru her disappointment and elation during the casting process. | |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: bearcat 04:14 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - castdiva 03:26 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| I know that you had a friendship with Virginia Vestoff and don't expect you to reply, I sense and have read here and there that she was truly beloved by those who knew her as a working actress what was she like in Via Galactica (and thru it) and what other roles of her's were particularly noteworthy? |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: castdiva 06:16 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - bearcat 04:14 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| Virginia was indeed loved by her friends and colleagues. She knew that Via Galactica was a bomb but actually had a great time bouncing around on the trampolines. And it was the first time that she was asked to belt. She's really good in a Robert Altman film called "A Wedding" |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: WWriter 05:01 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - bearcat 04:14 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| I was an usher at the Public when Virginia Vestoff did an absolutely dreadful musical of the Misanthrope. It was so bad that the only way to improve it was to get a completely new score--which they did! And it too was pretty darn bad. The poor performers were doing the new version in rehearsals during the day and the old one at night. Vestoff was clearly well-loved and very sweet. Her voice is lovely in Man With a Load of Mischief--I never saw her in it. She was wonderful in Getting My Act Together, which I did see. At the final performance at Circle in the Square (Gretchen Cryer had returned), Vestoff was in the audience. She was visibly ill. My friends and I went over to talk to her, to tell her how much we admired her work and how glad we were to see her out and about. She was very friendly and sweet. She was gone not long afterward. |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: bearcat 06:00 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - WWriter 05:01 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| thank you for sharing all this - I value your impressions | |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 03:41 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - castdiva 03:26 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| And yet the movie cast was full of ''unknowns.'' ... I was sad to read that Virginia passed away so young at age 42. Meantime, a friend of Scott Jarvis, who played the Courier on Broadway, says Jarvis didn't get to do the film because he read too old on-screen. He was replaced by Stephen Nathan, who played Jesus in ''Godspell'' in 1971, and nowadays is an executive producer of ''Bones.'' |
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| And who were those other cool, considerate men?? | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 03:51 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - WaymanWong 03:41 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| Seeing it on the big screen last week for the first time in decades, I was marveling at how I could see details on those guys who never get named, in particular, Neddie's pals--the one with gold braid and the one with the blue ribbons. But then, in the big finale to "CCM," I counted sixteen marching down the stairs. Sixteen! And I spent the rest of the film counting southern gentlemen in spiffy duds in the Congress, never reaching more than twelve (maybe thirteen). Who were those three or four guys? And how sad were they when the film came out without their number? Laura |
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| In the 'Cool, Cool' of the movie | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 04:44 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 04:40 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: And who were those other cool, considerate men?? - showtunetrivia 03:51 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| Laura, if you check out the IMDB listing for ''1776,'' they list about 15 actors who played the uncredited delegates. By the way, I read that the decision to cut ''Cool, Cool, Considerate Men'' played havoc with the movie's promotion. The film's trailer featured that number as its centerpiece, and it had already gone out, so they needed to recall and re-cut it. I forget where I read it, but producer Stuart Ostrow was concerned that the song title ''Cool, Cool, Conservative Men'' might turn off conservatives in the audience, so it became ''Cool, Cool, Considerate Men.'' Finally, Wikipedia says the song ''is anachronistic because the terms "right" and "left" in politics were not in use until the French Revolution of 1789.'' |
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| Link | IMDB.com: '1776' - Full cast list |
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| re: In the 'Cool, Cool' of the movie | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 05:45 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: In the 'Cool, Cool' of the movie - WaymanWong 04:40 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| Hey, that's cool that they're in IMDB, and that's considerate of you! I have Ostrow's memoirs and have read, uh, a bit about this show, but I've never run into that claim. I do have the demo with the first songs Edwards wrote, and it's "considerate," not "conservative." Though I don't know at what stage the demo was made, and it's possible Ostrow told him to change it before the demo got made, But it's such an 18th century phrase and so many of Edwards' lyrics are lifted from the sources, I went looking for it. "cool considerate men" is from a letter of Cesar Rodney's, commenting that even they are acknowledging the Declaration of Independence. So the demo and Edwards' love of the real words of the era make me think it was considerate all the way. Though they do sing "conservative men" in part of the song. :) Laura, who should get back to 1936, not 1776 |
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| re: In the 'Cool, Cool' of the movie | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 09:56 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: In the 'Cool, Cool' of the movie - showtunetrivia 05:45 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| Laura, you're probably right: It probably was ''Considerate'' all along. But here's one musical-theater columnist who cites that story about Ostrow, but maybe he's just repeating some misinformation. |
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| Link | 'Musings on Musicals' by Noel Katz: '1776' |
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| re: In the 'Cool, Cool' of the movie | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 10:41 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: In the 'Cool, Cool' of the movie - WaymanWong 09:56 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| Ostrow, in his book PRESENT AT THE CREATION, misidentified the song as "Cool, Cool Conservative Men" when discussing the White House request to cut the number. He also calls it that in both some contemporary pieces on the incident and in later interviews. I think that's what he thought the title really was. For that matter, at the Q&A with Peter Hunt, misspoke and said "conservative," but corrected himself. If anyone out there has access to Sherman Edwards' wife's diaries, I bet they would say when made thae demo. And it's "considerate" on the demo, for sure. Laura |
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| re: In the 'Cool, Cool' of the movie | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 11:45 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: In the 'Cool, Cool' of the movie - showtunetrivia 10:41 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| Too bad you didn't get to ask Hunt about this. ;) | |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 03:48 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - WaymanWong 03:41 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| Linking a photo of Jarvis in 1971, at the age of 30, in the Off-Broadway Whitman musical-song cycle Leaves of Grass. Even in 1969 photos of him as the Courier, he looks a bit old for the character. I'm awfully glad that he got to do "Momma, Look Sharp" on the Tonys. | |
| Link | Scott Jarvis in Leaves of Grass |
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| re: 1776 film | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 12:08 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - WaymanWong 02:23 am EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| Regarding Buckley, was the film being made while she was already committed to PROMISES PROMISES in London? Or was it after that? If that was the conflict, I wonder if Warner didn't want to pay to get her out of her London contract for whatever time it took to shoot that onescene or if she perhaps chose to stay in London and be a leading lady, rather than take time off to shoot a single scene in a film? | |
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| Hunt said Friday... | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 01:09 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 film - JereNYC 12:08 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| ...that "most" of the OC were invited for the film, but many declined because of other commitments, though he didn't specifically name BB. Also said Warner definitely had the Julie Andrews--Audrey Hepburn situation on his mind. Laura |
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| re: Hunt said Friday... | |
| Posted by: Greg_M 04:35 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
| In reply to: Hunt said Friday... - showtunetrivia 01:09 pm EDT 07/05/17 | |
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| Hunt said at a prior "1776" screening a few years back that Buckley didn't photograph well and added she was difficult so she wasn't cast | |
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