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| Do we have too many shows running in a season? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:54 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
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| With the closing of so many new musicals, and most of the plays of the season already having closed their limited or open runs... I can't help but wonder if it's not only the fault of the material not finding the audience for it or marketing, etc... but rather... given that there is a pretty limited audience for broadway theater (compared to movies, let's say) especially willing to pay anywhere near the prices producers need audiences to pay to make money, it seems like *most* people buying broadway tickets are seeing 1-4 shows a season. Let's just say there's a large amount of the audience that sees 8 things a season, even at half price (I see at least 20-30 a season I think but I rarely pay more than $50 a ticket and almost never over $85). But there are SO many things to see with both plays and all the musicals - new and revival... I am willing to bet if this season had half the musical open, they would all be doing better at the box office and for longer. I'm not saying there should be a limit to the shows that open... i'm just considering the supply and demand... and dare I say I think it's possible, for broadway, they are producing too much product in a given season. For example... I didn't see A Bronx Tale. There were too many others I wanted to see (many that are the ones closing - Great Comet, War Paint, Groundhog Day, Bandstand etc)... and I don't have the time and money to take a chance on a show i'm not drawn to when there are many I am. However if War Paint and Groundhog Day weren't out this season, let's say, I almost definitely would have tried A Bronx Tale... because I love musicals and theater and Menken and love to see as much as I can and be up on things before Tonys. And maybe Bronx Tale is a bad example because it's doing fine without my money, but i'm just using a show I didn't see as an example. Again - I say the more the merrier. BUT the economics of Broadway are complicated, and it seems like, if you consider how much $$ it takes to mount and run a show, and how long it has to run and how much it has to charge/make to be able to run, not to mention marketing, and that cast members are generally still underpaid, it's a lot... so if most new shows seem to close within 3-6 months, then this is a very discouraging business proposal... which means less chances taken, which means less writers seeing a career in theater as possible, which means less great and original material, less great performers who can really do the stage, etc etc... it seems destine to fail. And then you have the issue of rising ticket prices... yes, they happen because people will pay it for the must-see shows, but across the board everything rises and is more expensive to patronize, making the audiences less varied and closing out people who used to be casual ticket buyers. So it becomes a situation of broadway being only for those who can afford to see shows, or those who can afford to see ONE show (doesn't do much for broadway or theater)... while at the same time there are so many shows opening and closing with no chance of making money let alone returning investment. So do the shows get cheaper to make or do the tickets get cheaper to buy? Do seasons offer less choice to corner the market, or do prices and costs have to vary more? Or none of that happens and things keep going as they have, and it'll be whatever it is. |
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| Maybe too many big hits at once | |
| Posted by: mikem 07:01 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: Do we have too many shows running in a season? - Chazwaza 09:54 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
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| This past season was unusual in that there were two smash hits -- Hello Dolly with Bette Midler and Dear Evan Hansen -- that, even before the Tonys, were essentially sold out for the next six months. So they have a strong premium sale/re-sale market that is sucking a lot of the dollars out of the marketplace. Add in Come from Away, which isn't an impossible ticket like the other two but still sold out every week, and all the dollars going to Hamilton, and there aren't a lot of dollars left for the tourist to see a second show. | |
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| If you build it, will they come? | |
| Posted by: Vectorbabe 06:46 pm EDT 08/17/17 | |
| In reply to: Maybe too many big hits at once - mikem 07:01 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
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| I don't feel we have gotten anywhere close to exhausting the audience for Broadway theatre. One of the reasons Hamilton is a mega-hit for Lin-Manuel Miranda is that he tapped into an audience of Broadway, rap, black protest, and civil rights people. The reason Hamilton has sold out the way it has isn't because so many Broadway people want to go. It's that there are so many outsiders who don't usually go to theatre, who want to go. Create a really strong, vibrant show that deals with the African American experience, and you will expand the audience figure with those who don't usually come to Broadway. I remember Purlie! bringing in bus loads of black women and men dressed in their finest Sunday church outfits. Create musicals that appear to the particular aspirations of girls 12 to 17 and you've got the start of a whole new category of "girl power" musicals. Wicked is the biggest hit, but there are others. And create something for the aging baby boomers and you'll see us pushing walkers up Broadway to make the curtain. (You might want to lower the curtain time to 6:30 so we don't have to stay up too late.) |
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| plus the tourist shows | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:25 pm EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: Maybe too many big hits at once - mikem 07:01 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
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| Like the still running Phantom, Lion King, Chicago, Book of Mormon, Wicked, Kinky Boots, and revivals of Cats, Miss Saigon and Sunset Blvd to scratch the itch of big shows that returning audiences haven't seen (or haven't seen for a decade). | |
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| re: plus the tourist shows | |
| Posted by: writerkev 02:33 pm EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: plus the tourist shows - Chazwaza 01:25 pm EDT 08/16/17 | |
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| I agree with this point--perhaps not your larger one that there should be fewer shows--but "Sunset Boulevard" definitely isn't running any more. | |
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| re: plus the tourist shows | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:43 am EDT 08/17/17 | |
| In reply to: re: plus the tourist shows - writerkev 02:33 pm EDT 08/16/17 | |
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| Good! Though I must say, my point wasn't that there should be fewer shows... in fact I think I even said I'm not suggesting there should be, i was just wonderful if there were too many for the many running to succeed the way they might if there were less options in a given season. And While Sunset has closed, for the months it ran it surely took many ticket sales from other shows that people chose not to see so they could fill their slot or spend they money they had to spend on Sunset (in fact I bet some people didn't see 2 shows so they could pay for a pricier ticket to see Glen Close up close, which is what happened to me. For $120 ticket to that, that could have been 2-3 rush or discount tickets to other shows. |
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| re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? | |
| Posted by: kess0078 01:34 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: Do we have too many shows running in a season? - Chazwaza 09:54 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
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| I was just listening to John Sanders (Ned Ryerson in "Groundhog Day") on the Broadway Bullet podcast, and he made an interesting point about the 2016/2017 season. (Worth listening to his unedited interview!) Many new musicals were avoiding opening last season, to avoid competing with "Hamilton." "Waitress" and "School of Rock" are chugging along for now, but otherwise, not much was able to survive the "Hamilton" juggernaut. Next season, many shows were avoiding opening against "Frozen," which (regardless of reviews), will surely be the toughest ticket in town. Thus, many shows shoehorned themselves into the 2016/2017 season, and we had 12 new musicals (11 with original scores, to boot) open. And none of them received devastating reviews and closed immediately. Add to that the long-running shows (that keep amounting) that draw in the tourist crowds, and you can see how it has been a tough season for a new show to stand out. I'm saddened by the closing of "Groundhog Day." I was hoping it could last at least through the holiday season, especially with the press from Bill Murray's visits lately. I was so inspired by "Groundhog Day." It is one of the most meticulously directed pieces of musical theatre I have seen. The score is witty, tuneful, touching. I laughed and cried. I thought about my own life choices for a few days afterwards. It's the Cast Recording I listen to most often lately. "Playing Nancy" is sure to be a cabaret staple for years to come. Andy Karl is fantastic, but the INCREDIBLE ensemble of Punxatawians is full of quirky, delightful characters that you slowly come to know and love, just as Phil Connors himself does. I'll be making another visit before Sept 17, and I really encourage those of you on the fence to check it out. |
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| This season did seem to have a bunch more musicals | |
| Posted by: bobby2 12:50 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: Do we have too many shows running in a season? - Chazwaza 09:54 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
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| I mean you have the four Tony nominees and then four or five more non nominees still running. Some years I think only the nominees survive. | |
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| re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:38 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: Do we have too many shows running in a season? - Chazwaza 09:54 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
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| with very rare exceptions that are basically irrelevant, i've never met a producer who did not think his or her show would find an audience, and i've never met a writer who did not think his or her show and his or her reputation were enhanced on broadway. plenty of silly people doing silly things with their money but none of that supports a contraction. less is always less. and THAT is the law of supply and demand... |
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| re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? | |
| Posted by: NewsGuy 10:09 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
| In reply to: Do we have too many shows running in a season? - Chazwaza 09:54 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
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| I'm in the same boat with you on a lot of things - such as I've yet to see A Bronx Tale, but have gone to the other shows you listed, and I don't like to spend more than a certain amount on tickets. Can I afford to do what I want? Sure, I can say and feel fortunate that I can but I just have self imposed limits, so sometimes, for that very reason, because "cheaper" tickets aren't available, I don't go. In the end though, I typically chalk up a lot of my reasoning for not seeing a show because, quite simply, I'm busy. That busy comes in all shapes and sizes ... job, personal life, travel requirements or demands, and sometimes, you're just tired and you're busy sleeping or just not being in demand. Sometimes I'm just tired from a busy week and the last thing I want to do is go see a show and then sit there and have my mind think about taking a nap or something else entirely. So, I'm not sure, for me, the problem is too many shows, the problem is ... life. And that's a good problem to have. |
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| re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 10:46 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? - NewsGuy 10:09 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
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| Indeed! But that is the problem from your end... from the producers end the problem is you didn't buy a ticket to their show. And I'm willing to bet if a 2-5 of the shows you did choose weren't open this season, you would have seen Bronx Tale. | |
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| re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? | |
| Posted by: NewsGuy 11:45 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? - Chazwaza 10:46 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
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| And you are absolutely correct if those shows werent around I probably would have made it to Bronx Tale by now. And I *will* go, but not before Bandstand closes :P However, I am thankful we have all these shows to choose from. Part of the reason why I came here in the first place. So, for now, I'm glad for what we have, but if we keep having some shows that park themselves for years at a time, I'm one of those who would like to see another theater or two come online. I'm on that side of the argument. So, let me know when you find good Bronx Tale seats. I'm in! :P |
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| re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? | |
| Posted by: summertheater 10:54 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? - Chazwaza 10:46 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
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| Way too many. When you add in the off-Broadway & off-off-Broadway, even if you saw a show every day (with 2 shows on Wed, Sat, and Sun), you'd never possibly be able to see everything. Unfathomable how some off-Broadway theater companies can produce so many shows per season (Signature, Playwrights Horizons, etc). Many of which are of questionable quality. There's just no time to see that many shows. Then you have Roundabout and its many theaters plus its two "Black Box" shows per year, etc etc. People are complaining about Roundabout's quality on this board and have been cancelling their memberships to Roundabout. Maybe theaters should severely cut back on their offerings to put on a few quality shows that appeal to the general population. Much rather a theater company have 2 or 3 good shows per season, than 6 shows of which 4 are crap. People who work, who have families, who have limited incomes, can only see "X" amount of shows per year. That's just a finite number. Theater companies like Roundabout or Playwrights Horizons can program 50 shows a year if they want to. But "X" is still a finite number for most people. And paying audiences will only see the same "X" per year, since they only have a finite amount of money and time. |
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| What a great idea! | |
| Posted by: NoticeMeGertrude 12:58 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? - summertheater 10:54 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
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| Just don't produce shows that are crap! Now, who gets to decide which ones are crap? |
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| re: What a great idea! | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:26 pm EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: What a great idea! - NoticeMeGertrude 12:58 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
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| But that doesn't work either because sometimes shows that are "crap" are hits, or find enough of an audience to run a year or two, which is longer than many brilliant or worthwhile shows. | |
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| re: What a great idea! | |
| Posted by: summertheater 04:48 pm EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: What a great idea! - Chazwaza 01:26 pm EDT 08/16/17 | |
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| Good point, but if you have a limited amount of money to spend to put on a show, you'd most likely want to program the show that appeals to the widest possible audience, so you have the greatest chance of making a profit. If you're not sure about something, you can test it via workshops and/or off-off-Broadway before it goes into the "big leagues" of off-Broadway or Broadway. Off-Broadway and Broadway shouldn't be the place to test market shows that fail and never make their money back. | |
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| re: What a great idea! | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:47 am EDT 08/17/17 | |
| In reply to: re: What a great idea! - summertheater 04:48 pm EDT 08/16/17 | |
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| But i just don't think that's how theater in nyc works nowadays. Now, for a show to have a real life, it needs to be on Broadway for some amount of time... there are exceptions but generally not. And there's no way to know that a successful show in a workshop or off-off or even off-broadway will be a success in a broadway context/market/theater etc. And I'm sure you know there is not a single show that has been mounted on broadway without many readings and workshops or smaller productions before broadway. Yes there may be an exception now and then but generally not. | |
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| re: What a great idea! | |
| Posted by: Vectorbabe 03:06 pm EDT 08/18/17 | |
| In reply to: re: What a great idea! - Chazwaza 01:47 am EDT 08/17/17 | |
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| The question is what do you mean by "a real life"? Do you mean that it has a lasting imprint on the theatre scene with touring companies, licensed productions, high school productions, etc. The great exception to that rule is then Seussical. Having played less than six months on Broadway, "it closed in less than six months, having lost more than $10 million, and went into the history books as one of Broadway’s biggest disappointments" (from the NY Times article, 2007). But that flop has gone on to be quite profitable. "Almost immediately after the show was licensed, it became the most popular title in the catalog for Music Theater International. It’s still [as of 2007] in the Top Three" (NY Times) So although the general theatre community thought the show was "crap". (My word. Not printed) It has made money for its producers since it closed. I have been unable to find out if it recouped the original investors's money. |
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| Link | NY Times, 2007 |
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| re: What a great idea! | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:54 pm EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: What a great idea! - summertheater 04:48 pm EDT 08/16/17 | |
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| one would hope that non-profits are not focused on profit, and that they would take risks which necessarily means some shows will not succeed. I'd hate a theatre community in which that wasn't largely the case, and I tend to veer away from companies for whom the prevailing goals are profit and risk aversion. | |
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| re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 12:20 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? - summertheater 10:54 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
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| In one sense we are agreeing, but I must disagree about what off-broadway theaters and subscription non-profits should do. They have a difference producing model financially and different missions. I LIKE when theaters like that take chances. I don't want them to just do a few "good" productions (good is very subjective) that appeal to the "general population". I always prefer to like or love a show I see but I'm happy to roll the dice and take the ride and not like something if it means another time I get something special and/or something I love or have not seen before. I am so glad I could see "A Life", it's one of my favorite play experiences recently... I did not love "The Light Years", though I found some value in it. Neither plays are ones everyone is going to love... I loved one, and it was worth seeing two to get it. I loved Bernada Alba at LCT Mitzi... I did not like The Glorious Ones. Neither show are safe bets... but, besides that producing the work of incredible writers whether this particular one of theirs is their best yet or their worst is a worthwhile thing for our culture, I'm so glad they can do what they want because a lot of the time I love it, and some times I do not, and that's okay. Anyway... I don't think non-profits have an obligation to do shows that please the whole subscriber base or the general population... they have an objection to not be irrelevant as a theater. Being bad can get you there, taking chances and failing sometimes does not in my eyes. Commercial Broadway producing is another story. But besides the financials that I presented... I think it sucks that Bandstand and War Paint lost out on getting almost any nominations, like for writing lets say, but in a worse and less competitive year they would have no only done better at the box office and also with the Tony nominations and recognition. Given the times we are in, the fact that there were worthy NEW musicals with original scores that didn't even get nominations for Best Musical, Score or Book... we are spoiled, and I feel bad for those shows and their creators (outside of the fact that their shows got to Broadway and had cast albums done, which is more than most can say). |
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| re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? | |
| Posted by: Whistler 12:04 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? - summertheater 10:54 pm EDT 08/15/17 | |
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| Personally, I'd much rather have too many productions to choose from -- and it certainly helps all the artists involved. Not everyone eats everything on a menu, or sees every movie, or watches everything on the Internet or TV. I think you get my point. | |
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| re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 12:26 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? - Whistler 12:04 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
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| It does helps the artists, but in some senses it doesn't. To counter, if there were less shows and they had more of a corner on the market and so made more and ran longer and made more profit etc, people working on the shows might get paid more for the work they do... and the performers and crews would get paid longer. And they would be known to more audiences because there are less to know... same as how being on a broadcast network (CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX) up until 10 years ago would mean that you're a national star and name most people have heard of, whereas now you can be the star of a hit tv show and have a majority of tv viewers having never heard of you or seen your show (in some cases you can have a hit show that people haven't even heard of). You have more known stage stars, titles, longer runs, investors can bank and creators more readily, more audiences likely to see the shows that do open in a season, etc. But then... I think the best time was when shows cost less and didn't need to run 3+ years to be profitable, and most shows ran 9 months - 1.5 years and there were more shows but it took less for them to be worth funding. But I think back then it was less common to have years where they're scrambling to award "new" musicals vs years where good new musicals don't even get nominated because the category is full. So while I wouldn't limit opportunity in order to maximize the potential of the fewer opportunities, there are two sides to the coin. |
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| Numbers | |
| Posted by: Whistler 01:05 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Do we have too many shows running in a season? - Chazwaza 12:26 am EDT 08/16/17 | |
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| We'd need some numbers to determine how more actors and other production people working possibly more frequently though for shorter periods of time compare to possibly fewer people overall working for longer periods. | |
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