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| Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy (grumpymorningboy@yahoo.com) 06:21 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| I know. It's easy to laugh and wonder why we're even asking this. But watching FALSETTOS reminded me of something very stark. We pretty much never see happy gay couples in Broadway musicals. Here's what we have seen a whole lot of: tragic gay people. Gay people who die. Gay singles who are unlucky in love. Gay people who can't accept their sexuality, or are the scourge of an unaccepting community. And, a handful of cliched gay sidekicks or drag characters, who are typically de-sexualized, played for laughs, and seemingly innocuous. Lesbian characters are astonishingly rare; bisexual and trans people are essentially invisible. I do recognize that it seems a bit absurd to even ponder this question. Is there anything gayer than the American Broadway musical? But we seem to have far more Broadway gay icons who are themselves heterosexual women (Mama Rose, Effie White, Auntie Mame, Fanny Brice) than actual iconic gay characters. Of course, it's not like we don't have any representation at all. But I think that if we take the LGBT characters on the whole -- spread across shows like FALSETTOS, KISS OF THE SPIDER WOMAN, RENT, HEDWIG AND THE ANGRY INCH, THE PRODUCERS, AVENUE Q, THE BOOK OF MORMON, KINKY BOOTS, FUN HOME -- I'm not sure that we're getting a particularly well-rounded representation, folks. I see a whole lot of people for whom their sexuality IS the source of their drama. Being gay brings about a tragic outcome, or it becomes something for straight people to laugh about. Are Broadway's creators so lacking in creativity (or courage) that they couldn't imagine an LGBT person who has no issue with their sexuality and simply has some sort of other compelling story to tell? I think we have a lot of catching up to do. For all our illusions about the Broadway theater being a home for progressive voices, we're still making a whole lot of art that's worried about whether or not it'll play Peoria. If someone's written serious journalism that explores this question the way 1995's brilliant documentary "The Celluloid Closet" explored LGBT representation in film, I'd love to read it. In the meantime, what should we do to encourage greater, more well-rounded representation of LGBT people within new musicals? - GMB |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Last Edit: TheOtherOne 09:01 am EDT 10/30/17 | |
| Posted by: TheOtherOne 08:51 am EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 06:21 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| There is actually a prominent gay couple at the heart of Come From Away, and there was a likable if minor gay character in Groundhog Day, who the lead character admitted to having liked and fooled around with during his seemingly endless repeat of Feb. 2nd. I believe that last fact was unique to the show and not lifted from the film's script. "Fooled around" might sound insulting out of context, but I think fans of the show will agree that it did not come off that way at all. |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: MarkBearSF 01:51 am EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 06:21 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| Not that it's a shining example of Musical Theater, but I recall that If/Then had some gay male and lesbian characters amongst her friends and co-workers and I think they were pretty "normal" and dimensional people without problems related to their sezuality. | |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 01:57 am EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - MarkBearSF 01:51 am EDT 10/30/17 | |
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| Well hold on. What's this about "normal"? We're only well-represented if we are shown to be "normal"? | |
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| The one good thing from the Addams Family was the cup saying "Define Normal" (nmi) | |
| Posted by: MarkBearSF 02:34 am EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - KingSpeed 01:57 am EDT 10/30/17 | |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: MarkBearSF 02:03 am EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - KingSpeed 01:57 am EDT 10/30/17 | |
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| Ageed, wholeheartedly. I should simply have left that word out. (Too late to edit) | |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 11:23 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 06:21 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| Of course, in Falsettos, “the lesbians from next door” are a happy couple. Also, given the year Falsettoland was written, a happy ending was not possible. Marvin and Whizzer are a happy, if neurotic couple prior to the illness. | |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 09:20 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 06:21 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| The answer to your question is absolutely not. It mostly what you said and Legally Blonde and Sunset Boulevard. But LGBT people haven't been well-represented in TV or film til recently. Broadway musicals will catch up eventually. It will take awhile. We're not there yet. | |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 08:03 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 06:21 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| Some of those shoes (Kinky Boots, Fun Home) have really happy endings. Which, to me, is the point of drama, to see someone struggling with something and come through it. | |
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| It's not a question of happy endings... | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 11:42 am EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - Ncassidine 08:03 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| The point I'm essentially trying to raise is that up until now, for MOST of our prominent LGBT characters in Broadway musicals, their sexuality is the primary source of their particular conflict. Either an inner-conflict, attempting to accept themselves (as in FUN HOME, SPRING AWAKENING, Ethan and Malcolm in THE FULL MONTY) or an outer-conflict, attempting to win acceptance from society at large / their particular community (as in LA CAGE AUX FOLLES, KINKY BOOTS, Paul's monologue in A CHORUS LINE, Marvin's relationship with Trina in FALSETTOS). In other works, their sexuality is portrayed as the troublesome source of relationship drama, the way that RENT plays up a classic stereotype about bisexuals being 'selfish' and unable to please, as portrayed in Maureen's drama between Mark and Joanne. Here's what we hardly ever see: an LGBT character who happens to be LGBT, and now has something else exciting going on. We have had a handful. I'm glad that other posters noted the lesbians in FALSETTOS and IF / THEN, and the gay couple in COME FROM AWAY. Hooray for supporting characters. Let's get ourselves some compelling LGBT protagonists overcoming universal challenges that have nothing to do with their sexuality. I do think it's important to say that this is not a mere question of happy endings. WEST SIDE STORY is my favorite musical, and straight-up racism is the enemy of that story. In WSS, it's clear that being latino is inherently going to make life in America more difficult for you; the show becomes a didactic polemic on how racism can literally kill. Obviously, we've seen a LOT of Broadway writers try to make similar antagonists of homophobia -- or closed-mindedness in general (HAIRSPRAY, gobs and gobs of others) -- but it's time for us to move on and explore other foes. As KingSpeed and others have pointed out, TV / Film is waaaaaaaaaay ahead of us on this. Let's catch up, people. - GMB |
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| re: It's not a question of happy endings... | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 01:33 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:31 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: It's not a question of happy endings... - GrumpyMorningBoy 11:42 am EDT 10/30/17 | |
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| I would propose one reason for the way gays - and all minorities - tend to be portrayed at this stage of the game - and I think it's because we're still at a place where somehow writers feel that overtly celebrating those lifestyles or ethnicities is still needed. Much as I don't like the stereotyping in La Cage, I do appreciate that, in its time, it was an earnest attempt to celebrate aspects of the gay lifestyle onstage, in a way it rarely was at all at the time. But indeed, when will we see a show which has a large cast of gay characters where gayness is not part of the plot? (Even Zanna Don't doesn't quite do that, lol, even in turning the tables.) As much as we should be eternally grateful for August Wilson, for Ain't Misbehavin' (which I consider the king of all musical revues), for shows like Ragtime and Show Boat, for Porgy And Bess, etc - but when will a writer be brave enough to write about black characters without it being about black issues? The same for shows like in The Heights, Pacific Overtures, Allegiance and even Bombay Dreams? We want to celebrate what those shows offer, of course - but could someone have a successful musical that featured an all-Asian cast but had nothing to do with Asians per se? Are we ready for that yet? I think that most people would feel we're not ready for that. That we need more shows that focus on diversity/ethnicity/alternate lifestyles, because we haven't seen enough of them yet. It may be a long time before gay characters who aren't being emphasized as gay will be the norm. As is every conversation about diversity/visibility in theatre, it's not an easy conversation, and there's no easy (or single) answer. But it's important as hell to keep having the discussion. |
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| Which, if you think about it, is what HAMILTON did. | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 05:15 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 05:11 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: re: It's not a question of happy endings... - Chromolume 01:31 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
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| "I think that most people would feel we're not ready for that." You're right. Most people probably do feel that. And it's bullshit. Because we ARE ready for that. And we will FLOCK to it if it's done well. If you think about it, this is almost exactly what HAMILTON did. It forced us to imagine an alternate reality where a group of black and brown people had the wealth and social power to found a nation, rather than be enslaved by it. We had never seen a musical with a cast of black and brown people whose characters displayed that level of agency, those massive amounts of financial resources, that level of nation-influencing intelligence and wit. And audiences found it thrilling. Imagine if someone showed other minorities who were similarly not HELD BACK by the thing which made them a minority? We WANT these kinds of stories. There are many reasons why those stories are massive hits on America's screens. Let's put them on stage. With music, even. - GMB |
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| re: Which, if you think about it, is what HAMILTON did. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 06:43 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: Which, if you think about it, is what HAMILTON did. - GrumpyMorningBoy 05:11 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
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| an interesting point (as has been this thread so thanks) though I think the Hamilton example is not a great one because it is actually very much about being a minority in a majority world, and more particularly about finding a unique way of embracing and "owning" that world without deferring to it. I think it is still very hard to put a non-majority character in a literary work in America without that status having any significance. (And of course all of this is a tangent of the many threads about color-blindness, which is part of what makes this interesting.) | |
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| re: It's not a question of happy endings... | |
| Posted by: Jax 03:50 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: re: It's not a question of happy endings... - Chromolume 01:31 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
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| I think this conversation has gone so far astray that it's lost it's way. You are asking for theatre without content. Jersey Boys is about being Italian. Dear Evan Hanson is about being a teenager. And so Ain't Misbehavin is about being black. Writers, composers, lyricists, and other artists create out of who they are and the times they live in. To ask them to do otherwise is a kind of artistic fascism. It may come out of some misguided desire to create diversity/visibility, but it is death to the creative urge. Please remember the old saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." | |
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| Learn what "intersectionality" means. (nm) | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 05:13 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: re: It's not a question of happy endings... - Jax 03:50 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
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| nm means naughty moose! | |
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| I know what it means.....and I don't want to see a musical about it n/m | |
| Posted by: Jax 06:58 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: Learn what "intersectionality" means. (nm) - GrumpyMorningBoy 05:13 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
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| Nobody else does either | |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 09:17 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - Ncassidine 08:03 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| There is a disagreement as to whether Kinky Boots even has a gay lead character. Billy Porter has said Lola is gay but Harvey Fierstein says he is straight. | |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: Thom915 09:37 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - KingSpeed 09:17 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| Lola is in both the movie and the musical perceived to be gay. There is nothing in the writing, the direction or the performance to indicate anything else. Harvey said something very provocative about Lola being a straight cross dresser but wrote absolutely nothing to back up that statement. One could either by direction or performance play Lola as a heterosexual crossdresser but one would get little aid from the actual book of the musical. One could just as easily play Auntie Mame as a lesbian love story between Mame and Vera with Gooch as an obvious distraction. | |
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| The following yesr, harvey wrote casa valentina | |
| Posted by: dramedy 11:37 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - Thom915 09:37 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| He wasmon some crusade to prove that straight men dressed in drag. I really think thst is shown in kinky boots. | |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 11:19 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - Thom915 09:37 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| But Harvey wrote it. | |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:13 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - Thom915 09:37 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| Reminds me of a wonderful production of Hairspray I saw that made one misguided change - making the character of Edna a crossdressing gay man ("Eddie"). The problem was that since the book really doesn't support that, it didn't make much of an impact, and whatever statement they were trying to make with it was lost in the shuffle. It just didn't matter in the long run. I think it wound up being more confusing (to those of us who knew the show beforehand) than anything else. | |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: fidelio1010 07:42 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 06:21 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| Read Vito Russo's, "The Celluloid Closet" | |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:46 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - fidelio1010 07:42 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| Read Vito Russo's, "The Celluloid Closet" That book was published in 1981. I think GMB's valid question is, why haven't we come much further since then? |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: fidelio1010 06:31 am EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - Chromolume 07:46 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| My point is that not much has changed. | |
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| re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 12:36 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - fidelio1010 06:31 am EDT 10/30/17 | |
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| ... and that's really really sad. I made a reference to the documentary film (based on the book) in my OP; it's a stunning bit of research work. Meanwhile, much HAS changed in TV and Film. Although the actual NUMBER of representative LGBT characters in TV and Films is still far too low, we are finally seeing nuanced, transformative, full-fledged characters in a number of very successful TV shows and films. "Transparent" has won Emmys, "Moonlight" won the Oscar, and from "Six Feet Under" to "Sense 8" to "Empire," we're seeing LGBT characters whose lives take on added dynamics within their storylines. We need to bring the creative freshness to Broadway, which, hilariously, is starting to feel like a big old ship that won't turn around quickly. - GMB |
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| It shoulda been you and la cage | |
| Posted by: dramedy 07:18 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: Genuine question: are LGBT people well-represented in Broadway musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 06:21 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| Fake straight marriage for closeted gays. It did have a happy ending. So why didn t you mention la cage. Its a as gay as it gets and pretty happy ending and huge success with 2 revivals. Boy from oz is another one. Im surprised how sanitized kinky boots is where lola is basically asexual. Its too bad zana dont didnt get transfered. I really liked that musical. Road show and man of no importance are other of broadway musicals. And boy meets boy rarely gets revived. Ive never seen it on stage. |
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| re: It shoulda been you and la cage | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 07:35 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:35 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: It shoulda been you and la cage - dramedy 07:18 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| So why didn't you mention La Cage? It's as gay as it gets and pretty happy ending and huge success with 2 revivals. La Cage is mostly about stereotype. Those annoyingly bitchy Cagelles do nothing but play into everything that bigoted/ignorant straight people think gay men are. Having Georges be the only "straight acting" homosexual character is pretty much as bad as having a token person of color in the cast. I admit it - I truly despise the show, aside from the few of the Herman songs that rise above the general mediocrity. It's not his best score by far, and it's an awful, awful book. |
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| "Fun Home" and "A Chorus Line" | |
| Posted by: chrismpls 07:38 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: re: It shoulda been you and la cage - Chromolume 07:35 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| ...ahead of its time (but also of its time) in so many ways | |
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| re: "Fun Home" and "A Chorus Line" | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 08:02 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
| In reply to: "Fun Home" and "A Chorus Line" - chrismpls 07:38 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| Looking for a happy ending in an art work about minorities is false to begin with. Many potent, artful stories end with losses. Losses often make stories interesting, no matter whether the main character is a man (not a woman), an intellectual (not a working person), a member of a sexual minority or not. And I write this as a gay man. | |
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| Please see my "not about happy endings" reply above (nm) | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 06:04 pm EDT 10/30/17 | |
| In reply to: re: "Fun Home" and "A Chorus Line" - tmdonahue 08:02 pm EDT 10/29/17 | |
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| nm means nymphean marquetry! | |
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