Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 03:27 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| I used to love Hello, Dolly! and Mame as a kid, but I now realize how dated and thin their plots are. The new revival of Hello, Dolly! creaks along because it's so old-fashioned and lacking in much depth. Dolly gets revived solely because it has a great leading role (Midler is near perfection; can't even imagine Bernadette coming close to delivering on the slapsticky stuff). Mame doesn't get revived much. The songs for both shows are melodious, of course, but, except for their title songs, no songs are recognizable by the average person. Sondheim's revolution has left Herman's work in the dust. New composers are mimicking Sondheim and avoiding Herman. La Cage may have some staying power, mainly because it deals with real emotional and social conflict. I've never seen Dear, World, Mack & Mabel, or The Grand Tour (frankly, either have most people) so can't comment on those. While I love Herman's music, his musicals will become interesting historical tidbits rather than major parts of the revival repertoire. His work is fun, yet forgettable. |
|
| reply to this message |
| CONNIE AND CARLA | |
| Last Edit: JereNYC 10:47 am EST 12/21/17 | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 10:47 am EST 12/21/17 | |
| In reply to: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Zelgo 03:27 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| This is not really germane to the thread, but your statement (true) that MAME doesn't get revived much put a smile on my face as I remembered Nia Vardalos' film CONNIE AND CARLA, in which she co-starred with Toni Collette as two Chicago cabaret singers who witness a mob killing, flee to Los Angeles, and end up hiding out in a gay bar and pretending to be drag queens. Before the characters are discovered in LA, the mob sends an enforcer out to look for them in every dinner theatre in the nation...and in every single one of them there is a production of MAME. We see the character slowly embrace the show and come to love it as he's looking for the women. It's so much fun. If this film didn't so depend on classic show tunes, it would probably be a great candidate for a full blown musical. It's got interesting characters and a situation that could easily be tweaked to work on stage. It could be an interesting challenge for a composer to not only write book songs, but also write songs that sound like classic Broadway show tunes (but are wholly original) for the diegetic moments. |
|
| reply to this message |
| Interesting you leave out La Cage... | |
| Posted by: charles1055 12:21 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
| In reply to: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Zelgo 03:27 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| Which has been revived twice on Broadway in the past 15 years. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 12:09 pm EST 12/17/17 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:02 pm EST 12/17/17 | |
| In reply to: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Zelgo 03:27 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| New composers are mimicking Sondheim Mostly, I disagree. I think more composers are "mimicking" JRB. Or, to be more accurate, that more pop-infused style that we tend to generically call "contemporary Broadway." It's really a very different kind of sound than Sondheim. Also, though yes, Sondheim is certainly known for his use of intricate patter lyrics (but hey, so was W.S. Gilbert lol), the kind of over-crammed fast lyric writing we tend to get more and more of today, often in a very narrative style (again, JRB, but others too), also has more of a pop influence than anything that really relates to Sondheim. (I think not only of rap influences, but of pop hits like "One Week.") Also, in terms of Herman's shows having any longevity - it's interesting to look at other classic Broadway composers' outputs as well. How many Berlin shows (meaning the ones he actually wrote - not retreads like White Christmas) get produced with any sense of regularity? Only Annie Get Your Gun. Porter? Two shows. (Kiss Me, Kate, and the heavily reworked versions of Anything Goes). Loesser? Two. (Guys And Dolls and How To Succeed.) Harnick and Bock? Two. (Fiddler and She Loves Me.) Gershwin? One. (Porgy And Bess. Again, I'm not counting the shows the original writers didn't conceive in some way.) Kern? One. (Show Boat.) Youmans? One (No, No, Nanette, but in a rewrite of the score he wouldn't much recognize as his own.) Kander and Ebb? Really only two. (Cabaret and Chicago). Lerner and Loewe get 3. Rodgers and Hammerstein, of course, get at least 5, and 6 if you count all the heavily rewritten Cinderellas - but in terms of Rodgers and Hart, probably only Pal Joey and The Boys From Syracuse get done with any sense of regularity - maybe Babes In Arms also. Styne? Gypsy primarily, with Funny Girl and perhaps Bells Are Ringing in the background, though are either of these, especially the latter, really going to ever have a healthy revival rate? There's also Peter Pan of course - but he didn't write the whole score. Jones and Schmidt? Just The Fantasticks. We could go on and on. But look at all these hallowed composers and teams who may have scores full of memorable and respected songs, but who only have a few truly "name" shows that get done with any regularity. And many of the neglected ones are actually very fine shows - we all have our "dark horse" favorites of course. Which to me says that Herman is in solid company. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 04:29 pm EST 12/17/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Chromolume 12:02 pm EST 12/17/17 | |
|
|
|
| In 50 years' time, I don't think anyone much except for theater specialists will recognize any of the names mentioned above--Herman's or any of the others--or the titles of most of their shows. Fifty years from now, it will be 2067, and nearly all the shows mentioned above will be at least 100 years old, if not 125. That's about the same distance away that we are now from Victor Herbert, John Philip Sousa, and Reginald DeKoven, and who today can so much as name even one of their shows? (Oh, I'm sure people on this board can, but "the man in the street"?) And when was the last time any of them was commercially revived? I agree with the OP that in the future Herman will be "relegated" to non-commercial productions, as an occasional historical curiosity, but I think just about everybody else--including Sondheim--is likely to be, too. In 2067, the writers of the next 50 years will be the ones who are all the rage, and considered immortal. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: gcarl44 03:13 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - keikekaze 04:29 pm EST 12/17/17 | |
|
|
|
| Speaking of 50 years from now, while you may be correct in that Herman and his fellow American contemporaries and predecessors may be forgotten, which of this era's musicals (excluding Sondheim, perhaps) will be remembered or revived? I can envision none that will be seen in 50 years. Even huge critical and commercial hits like Dear Evan Hanson, I don't see being revived in 50 years. IMHO, I think that the shows mentioned (with the exception, perhaps of Show Boat and Porgy & Bess) are revived because of their tremendous entertainment value. They were written to entertain and not necessarily to deliver a message. And while Show Boat and Porgy & Bess had their serious intentions, they were both entertaining as well and musically superior. Musicals today, generally do not have that level of entertainment, and are (again with the exception of Sondheim) not at the levels of Porter, Kern, Gershwin, Herman, Rodgers & Hammerstein or Hart score. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: JohnDunlop 01:58 pm EST 12/17/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Chromolume 12:02 pm EST 12/17/17 | |
|
|
|
| Quote: How many Berlin shows (meaning the ones he actually wrote - not retreads like White Christmas) Who wrote "Could Your Blessing (instead of sheep)" Of course, one has to include "White Christmas." |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 04:52 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:48 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - JohnDunlop 01:58 pm EST 12/17/17 | |
|
|
|
| White Christmas was written some years after Berlin had passed on. It's not in any way "his" show - he obviously had no say in the artistic choices that were made. (Nor is it even a revival of a stage show he did write, unlike shows I mentioned like Anything Goes or No, No, Nanette, which at least had a basis from which to start when they were rethought for revival.) The OP was referring to Herman's work as a living contributor/collaborator. I'm doing the same - I don't think including shows merely written around a dead man's song catalogue (even when inspired by a film written while they were alive) should belong in the same category. Were we, say, to include all the posthumous Gershwin retreads, it might just wind up that Crazy For You would be one of the most produced Gershwin shows. But since neither of the brothers had anything to do with the creation of that musical (and don't tell me it's "based on Girl Crazy" - very little of it is), it seems very odd to consider it in the same league with the shows they actually did write and collaborate in. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: JohnDunlop 12:30 am EST 12/17/17 | |
| In reply to: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Zelgo 03:27 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| I have a ticket to see "Hello, Dolly" today (Sunday), but could not get to New York on Friday because of an expected snow storm. It would have been my first Jerry Herman musical. I saw "Gypsy" and "The Sound of Music" on Broadway in 1960. I do not dislike Herman's songs, just the subjects of his musicals. Sorry to miss "Hello, Dolly" though, but not too sorry. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:18 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Zelgo 03:27 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| Well - as others I assume have pointed out, his most famous song besides "Hello Dolly" is from Mame but it's not the title number (which the average person would definitely not recognize), it's "We Need a Little Christmas". Furthermore, the average person wouldn't recognize a song from most musicals, even the best and/or most famous ones. So I don't think that proves much. But I do agree that his shows are not really among the best. Hello Dolly is a classic and will remain so. I don't think the thin plot is as big a problem as you do, but I do wish the show were more satisfying from a story standpoint. Outside of Dolly his best work was done in shows rarely seen, sadly, like Mack & Mabel and Dear World. I don't think Hello Dolly is forgettable. It's a joyous show, which is why it is done so often and for so many decades. I also love the movie, and think it's even better than the stage show (I think many of the rewrites or additions to the movie are improvements, except perhaps that new song they gave Barbra which I forgot about, and the insane, cartoonish and way too long waiters dance section). I do think Mame is of its time and not nearly as good a score, but it does have a more emotionally satisfying story... though I don't think it's told all that well. I like several songs from Mame and would surely have an enjoyable time seeing it again, but I just don't find it as good as it should be. Much more than Dolly it's become just an excuse to see an amazing diva do an amazing character. Most shows from the "old days" can't support a full scale big budget revival on Broadway - I don't think being "relegated" to Encores is such a bad fate in the current financial and cultural climate/reality. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| One only need to turn on the radio to any station playing holiday music right now... | |
| Posted by: HadriansMall 04:49 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Zelgo 03:27 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| To hear any number of versions of "We Need a Little Christmas" from Mame. I'm no Herman acolyte, but most of what you posit is simply not true. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: One only need to turn on the radio to any station playing holiday music right now... | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 07:30 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 07:29 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: One only need to turn on the radio to any station playing holiday music right now... - HadriansMall 04:49 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| I agree. And with this current production inspiring some of the most rapturous audience responses in recent memory -- I'd say the audience at the Midler Dolly likely exceeds some nights at that ... big show on 46th (I've seen 'em both) ... this appraisal seems oddly disconnected from the event status of Herman's revival. I have been in few full houses as thrilled to be on the scene as the one for this production. I saw it on a hot August night, and the sea of smiling, sometimes wet-cheeked faces, was unlike any in recent memory. It's not just Midler. It's the synergy of vehicle, beloved score (It's "Sunday Clothes" that has garnered the most attn for its emotion-stirring, not the title number) and nostalgia. A unique occasion. I bet for some, the Peters led performances will still be moving, especially in the dark winter months. This is truly the sunniest entertainment we have right now, and to my great surprise, I'm among the truest of believers. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: One only need to turn on the radio to any station playing holiday music right now... | |
| Posted by: gcarl44 03:22 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
| In reply to: re: One only need to turn on the radio to any station playing holiday music right now... - Delvino 07:29 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| I so agree with you. I also don't know why folks are already disqualifying the Peter's performance before she even starts. Many excellent performers have done Dolly. Even now, I have seen both Bette and Donna Murphy in this production and both were fabulous in different ways. Bette is a national icon and treasure, and much of the audiences reaction is based on that. Murphy' is a Broadway treasure, and the audience I was in shoed the same ecstatic reaction as the one for Bette, because she is wonderful in the role. Everyone performer brings their own something to the role, often giving it a different spin, equal, but different. Let's hope that Peters will do the same. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: One only need to turn on the radio to any station playing holiday music right now... | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 03:56 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 03:55 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
| In reply to: re: One only need to turn on the radio to any station playing holiday music right now... - gcarl44 03:22 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
|
|
|
| Peters will be great, though I do hope she doesn't cry during "Before the Parade Passes By" -- I think it would be too much. If they reinstate "Love Is Only Love" from the film--originally written for "Mame" I believe, maybe that approach might work. She can be very funny -- I remember especially that she was a hoot in Mel Brooks' "Silent Movie" and on the Carol Burnett show. There have been many humorous touches in her many roles over the years, though she hasn't done that much out and out farcical comedy over the years. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: One only need to turn on the radio to any station playing holiday music right now... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 05:11 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: One only need to turn on the radio to any station playing holiday music right now... - HadriansMall 04:49 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| I don't intend to wander very far into this minefield, but to be fair to the OP, the point was about the play, not the songs. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| I was specifically refuting the claim the OP makes that... | |
| Posted by: HadriansMall 06:35 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: One only need to turn on the radio to any station playing holiday music right now... - ryhog 05:11 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| Only the title tunes would be recognized by the general public. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Is that really proof that his *shows* will endure? | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 05:12 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 05:11 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: One only need to turn on the radio to any station playing holiday music right now... - HadriansMall 04:49 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| You'll hear "It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christmas" just as frequently... but there's yet to be EVEN ONE Broadway revival of Here's Love. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Is that really proof that his *shows* will endure? | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 06:00 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: Is that really proof that his *shows* will endure? - MockingbirdGirl 05:11 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| No producer wants to waste his or her reputation and no investor wants to waste money on "Here's Love." | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Is that really proof that his *shows* will endure? | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 05:21 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: Is that really proof that his *shows* will endure? - MockingbirdGirl 05:11 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| Willson wrote "It's Beginning To Look a Lot Like Christmas" in 1951, then inserted it into HERE'S LOVE in 1963. Laura |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Is that really proof that his *shows* will endure? | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 05:24 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Is that really proof that his *shows* will endure? - showtunetrivia 05:21 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| My point is that the popularity of the song has not contributed to the longevity of the show. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: Deirdre 04:28 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Zelgo 03:27 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| Funny, because my 19 year old and I saw "Hello, Dolly!" a few months ago and she said: "Wow, I can't remember the last time I left a musical humming along with the songs. Everyone was memorable in its own way!" Neither of us was all that familiar with Dolly (I knew what I had seen as a kid on the talk shows with Carol Channing but had never seen a production of it.) Jerry Herman wrote some catchy, fun tunes. I really don't find it forgettable at all! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 04:24 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Zelgo 03:27 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| I have to disagree with you on some levels. Hello Dolly will be around forever and revive-able when ever a leading lady of a certain age and star power wants to devote time to the stage, as actresses with this mega wattage gravitate toward movies and TV. The plot is much better than you think it is, IMO. Get the script out and read The Matchmaker which is loaded with social commentary. I saw a glorious production at Asolo Rep a few years ago and it still speaks to modern audiences. Herman had to strip some of that away to make room for the songs, but look closely and its still there, underneath. And then those wonderful songs. I would agree that Mame is problematic both with its attitude toward the South and the extremely episodic book, but again disagree about the songs, they are well known to anyone interested in musical theater (Open a New Window, Need a Little Christmas, If He Walked Into My Life, Bosom Buddies). Now onto the three flops. Dear World is the best but plagued by a weak book and a story that begged not to be musicalized. I was actually once out on a tour of Madwoman of Chaillot which itself is rather dated but shockingly has some relevance with the political fights over global warming. But the polemic tone is all wrong for musical treatment. With that said, Herman's score is by far the finest element. Recently had an opportunity to see a community theater production which I passed on. I did see the original while a Senior in HS, Boston. Mack & Mabel is sabotaged by its horrible book and dark, dark, dark story line. The concert presentation is probably the most workable idea, salvage that glorious score, just narrate the story, such as it is. The Grand Tour is your garden variety piece of dreck. The score is mostly second rate Herman with two good songs. The book is badly written and the whole thing has little redeeming value, so why worry. I sense that you are not Jerry Herman's biggest fan, am I right? Do you still scratch your head wondering how La Cage could have beat out Sunday in the Park with George for best musical. I love Sondheim too, but I also enjoy Jerry Herman. This is going to surprise you, but there was a recent , quite decent production of Little Night Music hereabouts. Many people I know (not theater people) HATED IT. Lots of different reasons why, but they just didn't like it at all. Now I hope we can agree that Night Music is one of Sondheim's most accessible shows, so if lots of people can't warm to that one, maybe it is possible to conclude that Sondheim isn't everybodys cup of tea. My point is, please don't be so ready to relegate all of Jerry Herman to the dustbin of musical theater history. BTW, have you recently or ever sat through Pajama Game or any of dozens of other 1950s (successful) musicals? They don't all play wonderfully today, 50 years out. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: gcarl44 03:47 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Snowysdad 04:24 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| IMHO, Dear World, Dolly, La Cage, and Mack & Mabel are his best scores. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: bearcat 03:41 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Snowysdad 04:24 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| I think ALNM might be too low key for some audiences. The score is glorious, but other than WintheC-it lacks the sassy zest of those deligthful Golden Age musicals and it takes some time to get going, I've found the exposition last about 20 minutes and the story doesn't really move until Frederick wanders into Desiree's apartment. (I saw the North Shore Music Theatre production (near Boston, MA) with Donna McKechnie and Jeff McCarthy some years ago, 2000!!!!, and in the men's room afterwards, one senior said, "I like something with jokes and more dancing) remember what Abbott said to Bernstein for On the Town: I don't want any of that Prokofae stuff. Well, the (agitated, elongated) rhythms of Night Music can be like the conflation of this Prokofiev with Richard Strauss |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: Jax 07:36 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Snowysdad 04:24 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| Sometimes when a light entertainment lasts beyond its time it's because it says something about its time (often unconsciously) and people like to go back to it for that reason: ANYTHING GOES and the Cole Porter songs bring back the Jazz Age, YOU CAN'T TAKE IT WITH YOU brings back the Depression and the optimism that brought us through it. Based on that, I think both PAJAMA GAME and DAMN YANKEES are fairly strong examples of mid-century Americana, like a series of Beach Boy songs, and have a good shot at continued revivals. But Jerry Herman's Big Lady musicals really only connect with Star Worship and Mama Love. I'd say as times goes on there more likely to be fade like DuBARRY WAS A LADY or HIGH BUTTON SHOES. They're not about enough for contemporary audiences to keep connecting with them. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: bearcat 03:46 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Jax 07:36 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| A few years ago, a production of Pajama Game presented by Boston Conservatory played beautifully-I am sure others who saw it would agree. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 04:23 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 04:15 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Zelgo 03:27 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| "We Need a Little Christmas" is a holiday perennial. "Put On Your Sunday Clothes" and "It Only Takes a Moment" were used quite prominently in the film "Wall-E" "Hello, Dolly!" is currently selling out. Lots of great songs in the shows you haven't seen; I don't know if you've listened to them or not. "Mame" is hard to cast when the sophisticated actors and actresses who used to be asked to star in Ernst Lubitsch, Rouben Mamoulian, and Billy Wilder films and the like are nowadays spending a lot of time doing Marvel, X-Men and "Star Wars" films. Back then, Angela Lansbury, Janis Paige, Ann Miller and the like could pull it off. Nowadays there are some who could, but there aren't many who are big at the box-office. The problem with many of those composers imitating Sondheim--not all do--is that there really is only one Sondheim. Jerry Herman was carrying on a tradition from among others, Irving Berlin and Frank Loesser, writing enjoyable songs with singable melodies that many great songwriting teams had also promulgated. Sondheim with his concept musicals, at times lacking plot, haven't been too successful for other writers; the most successful concept musical by others since Sondheim started writing is probably "A Chorus Line" (and maybe "Cats", though that's something between a concept musical and a revue). People thought "No, No, Nanette" and "Irene" were passe when they were very successfully revived in the '70s. One never knows when something will become popular again and what will fall out of the standard repertoire. Btw, I'd love to see some of Jerry Herman's less known shows at Encores -- he's one of the major composers whose works they haven't done yet. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 06:08 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - PlayWiz 04:15 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| Some of the Herman shows are star vehicles and as such, depend upon a star interested in reviving them. For example, "Mame" needs a comic/singer of a certain age and the show will work when there is someone (I can't think of anyone today. But Sutton Foster will age, so maybe?) who can invest the _part_ with interest. Even if the plot has little. Actually, it's interesting mentioning Sutton Foster. "Anything Goes" is not a great musical although it has some great songs. SF revived it rather well. "Annie Get Your Gun," which didn't work well for Bernadette Peters but turned out to be a great success for the totally unknown on Broadway Reba McIntyre. I mean, these star vehicles can come back...with a star! Star vehicles: almost anything that originally starred Ethel Merman, Carol Channing, and maybe Mary Martin, plus others. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: Jax 07:37 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - tmdonahue 06:08 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| Sutton Foster would be good in HERE'S LOVE. Good career move for her | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: gcarl44 03:52 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Jax 07:37 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| How about Sutton Foster in Mack & Mabel? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 08:05 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Jax 07:37 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| NO ONE would be good in "Here's Love." Been there; done that. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:11 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Zelgo 03:27 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| I generally agree with you about MAME but strongly disagree about the other shows, especially HELLO, DOLLY! Even though DOLLY! is based on a farce, I think there's more than enough honest emotion in the musical to make it a classic and keep it revivable in perpetuity. Also, I certainly don't think it's true that all current composers and lyricists are "mimicking Sondheim." | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 04:18 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - Michael_Portantiere 04:11 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| I think describing HD's plot as thin is to misunderstand the comedic genre(s) from which it springs, as Michael points out. Wilder's "The Matchmaker," on which Dolly is based, remains a vital play with much to say, through its use of conventional farce as well as character-driven comedy, about the human condition. While HD dilutes some of Wilder's more profound exploration of romance and sociality and the need to belong and be attached, it does a pretty good job of retaining the feel of WIlder's play. I suspect Dolly, at least, will outlast any number of Sondheim's shows (though by no means all--I think Sweeney Todd, A Little Night Music, and Sunday in the Park, as well as Into the Woods, perhaps, will remain evergreen in their expression of human experiences). I suspect some of the shows, like Company and Follies, are actually rather time-bound, even if they are still produced frequently. I'm not sure they will be done that often in another twenty five or fifty years (assuming we still have theaters then!). We are often myopic during our own periods. And I agree, I don't think all contemporary composers are mimicking Sondheim--I think there is a difference between being aware of his contributions and building on them, and mimicking them. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 08:06 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - BruceinIthaca 04:18 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| I think often of genre but that in and of itself is not enough to make a play/a musical a BO hit. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 04:28 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - BruceinIthaca 04:18 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| I'd also add that I think MAME may be revived, but perhaps not quite now--it may need more time to become a period piece, given its depiction of race and anti-semitism, etc. In that regard, it may be a little like Gilbert and Sullivan, though I doubt Ito can really be recovered as anything but a kind of stereotype. I think "La Cage aux Folles" still has "legs," as well--particularly as we face the fact that homophobia and opposition to LGBT+ rights, including marriage and families, is by no means over in the hearts and minds of many, alas. I think "Dear World," "Mack and Mabel," "Milk and Honey," and "The Grand Tour" may well be consigned to the museum, with acknowledgment that each show has at least one and some a handful of lovely and/or funny songs. A good Herman revue might be interesting. I loved "Jerry's Girls" when I saw it (the Sunday matinee before Chita got into an accident that night!), but that was in large part due to the talents of Rivera, Loudon, and Uggams (as well as the ensemble). As a stand-alone revue, it doesn't have much to recommend it, but I think a smartly built revue using Herman's music could work. Even so, if "Dolly" and "La Cage" were all he had done, he would have earned an ongoing, vital place in American musical history. (And I am one of those who imprinted on the OBC of "Mame," so, despite its book issues, I still love to hear the score, the emergence of Lansbury as a Broadway star, being introduced to Arthur and Connell, and that glorious overture!) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions | |
| Posted by: bmc 07:30 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - BruceinIthaca 04:28 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| I think the tone of dismissal in the original post may be the reason Herman Gave his acceptance speech about the simple hummable tunes being back.. I don't believe he was consciously 'dissing' ; Mr. Sondheim. I think he just felt relieved to have a hit after people had relegated him to the dustbin.... On my own preference, I think Dolly is a wonderful show(with Mr. Champion being the key;) I love the score for Mack and Mabel, then I start to pick and choose among the Herman songs. The Sondheim/ - Laurents-(fill in the names of the other collaborators, including Mr. Prince), and you have a historic legacy. Jerry Herman has one great show, which is inseparable from the Champion staging. I saw Dolly last may and it was one of the most joyous occasion in my life, | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Milk and Honey | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 12:15 am EST 12/17/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Prediction: Jerry Herman's Musicals will be Relegated to Encores Productions - bmc 07:30 pm EST 12/16/17 | |
|
|
|
| I think Milk and Honey would be a perfect Encores show. Unrevivable , some very good music - - could be lots of fun | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Milk and Honey | |
| Posted by: jmill 11:32 am EST 12/17/17 | |
| In reply to: Milk and Honey - StageDoorJohnny 12:15 am EST 12/17/17 | |
|
|
|
| I saw MILK AND HONEY at the York earlier this year, as part of its Mufti series. It was wonderful. Herman's score is sophisticated, beautiful, and almost operatic. To my surprise, the book worked well and played with both dramatic strength and humor. All of that said, it's true that this show won't be revived, and I've long hoped it would be done at Encores. It will be one of the shows featured in the first Encores show of the new season, HEY LOOK ME OVER, which will feature songs and scenes from several shows that Encores has thought about presenting. I saw the touring production of the original MILK AND HONEY, with most of the Broadway cast - it was one of the first shows I saw. Prior to the Mufti mounting, I had seen MILK AND HONEY at Musicals Tonight several years ago, and that production was less effective. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Milk and Honey | |
| Posted by: bearcat 03:42 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Milk and Honey - jmill 11:32 am EST 12/17/17 | |
|
|
|
| how about the border when the Syrians attack how about the Arab with the rifle in your back |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Milk and Honey | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 02:55 pm EST 12/18/17 | |
| In reply to: re: Milk and Honey - jmill 11:32 am EST 12/17/17 | |
|
|
|
| Most of Herman's work (and, indeed, those of the other great Bway collaborators) would be more accessible if the books were re-written, en masse. The books are so corny that they become period pieces almost immediately. Fix the books and the musicals could have a recurring life. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
Time to render: 0.141247 seconds.