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| Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 03:25 pm EST 02/06/18 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:15 pm EST 02/06/18 | |
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| So, I understand that in real life Isaac Powell is bi-racial. But it was very odd to me to watch this production with someone who looks, for all intents and purposes, white. Did this strike anyone else as hurting part of the point of the setting? The conflict is laid out as being between the upper class lighter skinned blacks and the poor dark skinned native blacks. To me that is lost when you're look at dark skinned people and someone who looks quite white. And I was in the first row so maybe the lightness of his skin color was all the more apparent to me than it might have been to others? I dunno. I have to assume Michael Arden saw this distinction as an asset to the storytelling, but it took me by surprise and made it seem like a different racial issue than it's written about, and confused the issue (especially since he's the only person playing one of the island people who is anywhere near as light-skinned as he is - if he were the only upper-class character being portrayed it might have had the desired effect, but there are several others who are not played by such notably light-skinned actors). Am I way off base? | |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: LikeABladeOfCorn 04:33 pm EST 02/06/18 | |
| In reply to: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - Chazwaza 03:15 pm EST 02/06/18 | |
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| Hi Chazwaza! I don't think you're "way off base." My take on this particular version is that The Story of TiMoune within this production of Once On This Island was meant to be told to a girl in a hurricane relief area with whoever was available to tell it. TiMoune and Daniel were the only actors for whom skin color was important as they are the only people on stage who play a single character of a single color; the remaining islanders all play either gods (for whom skin tone is not relevant) or people from both sides of the island. To help the little girl understand, those two actors needed to look different, but no one else was bound by color to specific roles. I say all of this to say that I think his casting was a very deliberate choice by Michael Arden and team, as was nearly everything about what I consider to be a peerless revival of Once on this Island. If it didn't work for you, I hope the rest of the show did! |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:55 pm EST 02/06/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - LikeABladeOfCorn 04:33 pm EST 02/06/18 | |
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| Yes, the rest of the show largely worked beautifully for me, with a few minor quibbles. But I don't think it was very clear that their intention was that the only two whose race played a role were Daniel and TiMoune. The production seemed to take place on a Puerto-Rico-like island that has been struct by a disastrous hurricane and in need of relief... in the pre-show (which was my least favorite part by far, I can't stand watching actors have to come up with "organic" interactions in front of a confused audience killing time till the show starts, and I didn't understand the logic of why they broke the 4th wall) they are all speaking in Caribbean accents, and throughout the show. So why should we not assume they are black and are meant to be black and are playing black characters in the Story of TiMoune as they say they are? And also, making it look like Daniel is white is a confusion and simplification of the issue and conflict because it isn't white vs black, it's black vs black. |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 04:12 pm EST 02/06/18 | |
| In reply to: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - Chazwaza 03:15 pm EST 02/06/18 | |
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| I noticed it too. In fact I spoke with Powell for a minute or so at the stage door. You are right -- he is very white. I kind of thought that the purpose of the pre-show was to show that Salonga's character is some sort of doctor leading a mission to deal with the survivors of a hurricane. Therefore the actual race or ethnicity of her and her staff (including Powell) doesn't matter. They are all just individuals telling a story. At least that's how I interpreted it. The staging, production, and everything was so good that the incongruity of Powell's whiteness didn't really bother me. | |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: ntjvy 04:01 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - BroadwayTonyJ 04:12 pm EST 02/06/18 | |
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| He may be very light, but you have no way of knowing from a quick conversation whether he is very white, unless of course, you asked him. I appreciate the casting as a way to push the audiences thinking on race and colorism. It is clear that the character of Daniel is of both African and French descent. I think that the fact that we think that means he has to read as darker than Powell (who as I understand it, is also of African and European descent) is a problem in our perception, and I appreciate Arden's push on it. | |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 08:34 am EST 02/08/18 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:31 am EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - ntjvy 04:01 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
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| Dude, Chazwaza asked a simple question and I gave him a simple answer -- my opinion, nothing more. I wasn't trying to make a racial statement. Of course, I didn't ask him if he was white -- it's none of my business. I just said that he looks white, which he does and probably appears to be so to many people viewing the show who aren't there in the theatre looking to push some sort of agenda. Powell (and the other members of the cast) play dual roles if we are to take the pre-show seriously. In the pre-show he's simply a member of a doctor's humanitarian team so his race is unimportant. In the story they are all telling the little girl, he plays Daniel, who is a light-skinned individual of mixed race. Personally in my opinion only I think Arden is trying to make a statement similar to what Miranda is doing in Hamilton that acting on stage is acting and any person regardless of his race or ethnicity can play any role as long as he or she is good enough. Most stage productions are open to different interpretations -- this one is no exception. |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:59 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - BroadwayTonyJ 08:31 am EST 02/08/18 | |
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| "I think Arden is trying to make a statement similar to what Miranda is doing in Hamilton that acting on stage is acting and any person regardless of his race or ethnicity can play any role as long as he or she is good enough." I actually do not think that is the point that Miranda was trying to make with the way Hamilton was/is cast. It's very purposeful that the white founding fathers and those around them are played by young black and latinx actors, and I don't think specifically has to do with color-blind casting. I think the Hamilton casting is very much not color-blind. |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 05:29 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - Chazwaza 03:59 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
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| People of color had as a great role in building this nation as white people. I think that is certainly one of the main points that Miranda brilliantly gets across. The way Hamilton has been cast is entirely appropriate and is one of the reasons that the show is such an exhilarating experience. It is obvious that since Hamilton debuted, its non-traditional casting approach has been influential in productions I've seen everywhere I have attended theatre. It's just my opinion but I think Arden's casting decisions may be reflecting that influence. That's all I was trying (perhaps clumsily) to say. | |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:09 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - BroadwayTonyJ 05:29 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
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| I can't tell from your wording, but there's no need to defend or explain the Hamilton casting concept to me, I understand and applaud it, and agree it's part of what makes the show thrilling and much more impactful than it might be with a white cast playing the historically white characters. But I do have to disagree about Arden's casting -- casting Papa Ge, the usually male demon of death, as a woman, and Asaka, the mother of the earth, as a man playing somewhat non-binary was the casting I found poignant and progressive. I don't think he cast Daniel as a bi-racial man who appears to be white because he wanted to show that anyone could play any role regardless of race if they are good enough for it. It seems to be he either just liked the actor and decided his bi-racialness was more than enough to fit the role, or he wanted to visually clarify and draw more clear distinction and conflict between the black peasants and the French-mixed rich blacks on the island. |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 07:41 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - Chazwaza 06:09 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
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| You think a lot deeper than I do. All I can say is that when I saw this revival of Once on This Island last November, the casting overall struck me as more non-traditional than any other production I had ever seen. In my mind I attributed that decision to the Hamilton influence -- just a thought that came into my head. I'm not trying to make any kind of definitive statement. I thought the casting of Powell and even that of Salonga was somewhat unusual, but (as I said in my first post) the show worked so well for me I didn't care. | |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 05:14 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 05:04 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - ntjvy 04:01 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
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| But doesn't having an actor who appears white and who the audience will almost definitely see as white confuse the actual racial conflict which is not black and white but black and black? And doesn't the fact that all other "rich" characters are played by black-appearing actors and Daniel is played by a white-appearing actor make it seem to audience, especially one not familiar with the show, that Daniel is meant to be taken as white? | |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: ntjvy 06:46 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - Chazwaza 05:04 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
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| I hear what you're saying, yes, I do think it confuses it, but maybe not in a bad way. It is evident in the script that Daniel is of African and French descent. Looking at Powell, he may read as "white" to some, but they are then confronted with the script that says that this character is not in fact entirely of European descent and is not living the life congruent to someone who is entirely European. To me, this is an excellent opportunity that Arden created to push our thinking, and at a time where the dialog about race feels urgent. One would have to really be avoiding any critical thought to just accept Daniel as white in this context and think of it as a plot hole, or to not think about it at all. Race is a social construct and so is how we understand it. Even the fact that we are looking at this as a conflict within two different black communities, even though one of those communities has significant French (white) heritage, is indicative of that. I think that Powell's casting here can push that construct a bit, in a good way. Blackness isn't about pigmentation, it's about heritage, culture and the way in which one experiences the world due to all of the factors that come along with the construction of race. When you introduce colorism into the conversation, it's even more complex. That is true in Haiti, that is true here, and it's something that I've thought a bit more about since seeing this production. I don't think it muddies the production, I think it enhances it and I appreciate it. |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 07:38 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 07:34 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - ntjvy 06:46 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
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| All great points. One thing I do wanna throw in is that, in my understanding, to say "blackness isn't about pigmentation" is very odd because it both then assumes that a black heritage has specific (and limited) cultural or world-view characteristics that come with it, and also seems to be something one can say from a place of the privilege of not living with identifiably black or even dark skin where the people around you categorize and/or judge based first on what they see. (i.e. light skin or white-passing privilege) I'm curious about this idea, because looking at it as a at least semi-"woke" white millennial (on the old side of "millennial"), I understand that race as it divides us is a construct, but skin color is not ... and skin color is what humans use to ignorant construct and define the differences they see that allow them to push others down so they can rise up and justify their cruelty for their own gain. And colorism WITHIN a race is so laced into what is poignant about OOTI rather than another tale of rich white vs poor black, it seems odd to complicate that by saying a character who is black with european mix is actually appearing white (even though all the others in his family and friends are that too but appear black). Also if you really dive into the idea that this group are all telling the story to the little girl, and therefor all know the story... to go with the new concept that they aren't all a small island village but also relief workers, then you must question why these relief workers know this story, and whether they're acting out or the audience is seeing the little girl's imagination of it play out (through the scenes of the Story of TiMoune) while the villagers tell it, you must consider that this little black child is imagining Daniel, the love-at-first-sight prince as the only white person around her. I think that also has implications that are problematic and confusing. I know it seems like I'm reading too much into it but I don't think so... and I have to assume/hope that Arden did the same about of thinking through this concept, I just think on some levels (which exist whether one sees or considers them or not) creates problems that weren't problems originally. |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: ntjvy 08:12 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - Chazwaza 07:34 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
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| I don't think that you're reading too much into it, I thought quite a bit about it after viewing also, I just came down in a different place on it. Fair point regarding blackness and pigmentation. I should say that "blackness isn't exclusively about pigmentation" and "lack of pigmentation doesn't not eliminate the lived experience of blackness". That's not to say that people of different skin tones don't experience their blackness differently because of it, just that a lack of pigmentation does not equal a lack of blackness. I think that, at least when we're speaking about race in a national sense, it could be argued that there is a specific set of cultural characteristics that come with blackness. That doesn't mean that those characteristics are universal but that it is likely that a Black American who is descended from Black Americans will likely have experienced some of that set. This of course is diluted when we look at Black Americans who descend from immigrants rather than from enslaved Africans, but then there is the set of shared experiences that comes with living as a Black person in a society that has created a specific set of behaviors that is applied to people of color, and which varies in nuance depending upon perceived subsets. I apologize for the run-on there. This isn't the same for white Americans who, by and large, have the privilege of a heritage with fewer traumatic interruptions to their narratives down the line. So while whiteness isn't connected to a specific set of shared heritage and culture, I would argue that blackness often is. I think it's just as odd to argue that blackness IS about pigmentation. Historically, white people have insisted for centuries that if there is "one drop" of traceable black "blood" in a person, than they are indeed Black. An excellent example of this was Plessy vs. Ferguson in which Homer Plessy, who had one Black great grandparents was denied access to a "Whites Only" car in the Jim Crow Era south. He looked "white" for all intents and purposes, but in the eyes of the law he was black. Had nothing to do with pigmentation. In many, many ways, I don't think this has changed (of course legally it has. . . technically). There's an odd disconnect for me in that you're recognizing that colorism that exists in and around Black communities is a thing, but in the same breath arguing that Powell is too light to convey this conflict. Like that IS what colorism is about. The difference in privilege and perception that comes with different skin tones. (Because while I don't think race is exclusively about pigmentation, colorism is). "You're not Black enough" is part of this also, and that's essentially what we're saying here. Powell despite being an authentic representation of a person of color in real life is not "black enough" to play a person of color on stage, because audiences only see blackness as a skin tone thing and can't possibly conceive of the idea that someone who has light skin may also live as a person of color. And pigmentation can vary dramatically even within the same family, between mother and father and child and even between siblings. That may make one family member lighter than the other, but I still contend that it does not make one whiter than the other. For what it's worth, I don't see the relief worker bit at all. Again, lots of this is messy, thinking it through. |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 08:41 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 08:38 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - ntjvy 08:12 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
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| I think in the context of race relations today, with segregation illegal and interracial marriage etc legal, and in the situation of The Story of TiMoune, the skin color that is visible to the naked eye (rather than the one define purely by bloodline) is the only one that matters (i mean in terms of the OOTI dark black vs light black issue - I know that wealth and "Grand Homme" background are also big dividing issues and that stems from who you were born to). Nowadays in America you aren't profiled or harassed because someone found out one of your grandparents was black, you suffer the oppression based almost solely on how racists and those concerned with race in the negative sense SEE you and your skin color. But yes, for all intents and purposes of this play especially, I am suggesting that Powell is not black enough to play a black character when his race is very important to the story, because we shouldn't have to look up the actor's racial heritage to understand that. I think many audiences see him in the show and think he is white. That doesn't mean that the racial conflict isn't understandable in the text of the story, but I think it changes it and adds a layer of unwelcomed confusion to the story and its subtext. (And also it's true, at least from my observation, intellectual assertion, and what I hear from non-light black people, that black people who pass as white do not "live as a person of color" in the same ways that obviously black people do. Yes, culturally and personally they have that and identify with it, etc etc, all due to that aspect of life as a POC - but in the context of racial discrimination, no it is just not the same. That doesn't mean it isn't a factor, or that other complicated issues don't come of it (for example people assuming you're white and dismissing your actual racial heritage, or insisting you define and defend your racial identity because it doesn't line up with their assumptions based on the visuals)... but in terms of discrimination or profiling from non-black people, it's not the same. Perhaps this is a good thing for the character of Daniel. But how would it be if Porgy and/or Bess were played by white-passing biracial actors? I would guess not well, even though it's certainly conceivable that they'd have white genes mixed into their family blood line. Now I know that this isn't the same because it is specifically part of the story of OOTI that Daniel is from a bi-racial white/black genetic background, but it's also noted that both of the "two different worlds" on the island are black people. |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: ntjvy 09:06 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - Chazwaza 08:38 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
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| I think there's some faulty thinking in this, but I think that the first paragraph is the root of our different perspectives. I could not disagree more. In the context of race relations today, it most certainly is not the color that is visible to the naked eye that matters in terms of oppression. I'm actually a little floored by that statement and I think that you are really simplifying the issue. I'm having a really hard time with the idea that you think that racism today is based on skin tone, and trying to figure out how to best communicate it. . . Racism isn't something that is experienced only on a one-on-one basis. It is so much bigger than the "n" word and being followed around in stores and even than police brutality. Institutional racism is a real thing. It is generational and the effects of it pass down generations. (And I might add also, that there are elements of race that go beyond skin tone, including hair texture and facial features. An albino black individual is often still recognizable black, but I digress.) Racism isn't just about discrimination in a personal sense. It's about access to education, wealth, economic opportunity, housing, job opportunities etc and those things are often based upon your parents access and their parents access. In a sense, it's inherited and will continue to be until the government takes *effective* action in leveling the playing field that literally centuries of direct oppression have created and not just eliminating the technicalities that allowed for the oppression. Primary black communities in our country have less access to these things that I metnion than primary white communities (there are outliers, always outliers). It doesn't matter how light skinned a person is, if they haven't had access to these things, due to their race, not their skin color, but their race, than they are experiencing racism. This isn't unusual. Access was denied to the suburbs for black folks for decades through redlining and housing discrimination creating segregated living conditions. It's not by chance that primarily black neighborhoods, that were created due to this discrimination, have lesser quality schools. Doesn't matter what your pigmentation is, if you are forced into a lower quality school because you live in a "black" neighborhood because that's where your family has roots because they were marginalized to it through redlining, you're experiencing racism. If you're very light but you have a "black sounding" name, you're less likely to get called in for a job interview. There are a million examples of this. Of course there's also the flip side if positive culture that can be inherited regardless of your pigmentation also. And what I'm saying is NO, we should not have to look up Powell's background in order to understand. Perhaps we can let his representation of the character, and Arden's choice of it, and the book, guide us into reconsidering our own limited thinking around race, class and colorism. |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 09:24 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:21 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - ntjvy 09:06 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
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| I think you're being a bit myopic in how you're reading what I've written... or perhaps I was unclear, but I was speaking specifically about the way someone is treated based on what race they appear to be. Of course racism is systemic and it and culture are passed down through generations, and effect all those categories of life and existing in society that you detailed. I'm talking specifically about how, for example, a bi-racial person who passes as white could be treated differently in all situations (work application, education, dating, walking down the street, apply for a lease, access to everything etc etc) than a person who appears to be identifiably black. And yes, hair and shape of features, and name... all these and more can be put under the umbrella of "racial appearance" that can signal to a person what to assume your racial or class background might be. Yes, I was simplifying the issue very much - no need to be floored - but I think we have to acknowledge that Once On This Island also simplifies the issues it deals with, and personally I think Arden's casting and aspects of the concept he laid onto the show only serve to further simplify. I think actually we are on the same page except about whether or not Powell's casting gives us a chance reconsider our limited thinking around race, class and colorism (your take on it) or that it reverts back to a commonly portrayed conflict that simplifies and therefor limits the show from telling the story it meant to tell, at least to a degree (my take). But it's quite possible I'm wrong, or that the degree to which i'm right is worth changing or sacrificing for what it might gain otherwise? |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: ntjvy 09:33 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - Chazwaza 09:21 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
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| If I was myopic it was unintentional. I much prefer what you wrote here than what I understood from your last post, although I still don't agree with it all. Once again, appreciate the dialog. | |
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| to clarify | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 09:02 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:01 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - Chazwaza 08:38 pm EST 02/07/18 | |
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| I realize that Porgy & Bess isn't a good example because for the story to work we can't think they'd have had the option of what opportunity or privilege might have come to those characters from passing as white to white people, i'm just saying that that is a show where their race is also important to the story, and i could see a scenario where a director casts a bi-racial actor who happens to pass as white and justify it with them being bi-racial and the possibility that that could have been in the character's background. I think that director would be wrong, but I could still imagine it happening. | |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:27 pm EST 02/06/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - BroadwayTonyJ 04:12 pm EST 02/06/18 | |
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| I got the new context for it and the players doing the storytelling, but I don't understand why they are telling THIS story, one that, in the text still, has to do with black vs black racism and classism. And sadly I couldn't quite not see it all the time, it always seemed very colonial-fantasy that this poor black peasant is worshiping this skinny rich white kid for no reason... I think it only brings out some of the weakness and problematic-ness of the story being told and how it plays out. | |
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| re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 07:39 pm EST 02/06/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Question re: Once On This Island revival - a white Daniel? - Chazwaza 04:27 pm EST 02/06/18 | |
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| Yes, I've always thought it was even worse than its antecedent "The Little Mermaid" in what feels to me the unexamined "colorist" even when both actors are of Afro-Caribbean descent (or played as such). And I generally like Rosa Guy as a novelist! | |
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