Threaded Order Chronological Order
| What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:53 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: HELLO, DOLLY! Last Night - JereNYC 03:18 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| I've been wondering this since I saw it, and much more when the ridiculous choice to do it on the Tonys was made... you say you think both DHP and Garber make a case of including it, so I'm curious if you or anyone else here can explain why they think it should be included. From what I got from it, it gives very little insight into the character, has no purpose where it is or in the show at all, and just makes the night longer, though it is a mildly amusing song it's nothing special. | |
| reply to this message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: allineedisthegirl 11:02 am EST 02/09/18 | |
| In reply to: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - Chazwaza 03:53 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| Yes I believe the song is slightly problematic, since it tacks on another beginning to Act II where we don't need one. But the song is amusing. There are worse songs in this score. Most important, it gives meaning (and feeling!) to the penultimate moment when Horace takes the penny out of his pocket and gives it to Dolly. I loved that! db |
|
| reply to this message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? Well ... | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 03:04 pm EST 02/09/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - allineedisthegirl 11:02 am EST 02/09/18 | |
|
|
|
| ... in the original version, Carol Channing was a star, and David Burns was a wonderful, reliable, funny, Broadway character man. He didnt need any extra material to make him happy or fill out his role. The recent revival had two stars - yes Ms Midler was a much bigger star than David Hyde Pierce, but David is a star in his own right. Without PENNY IN MY POCKET, Vandergelder's only number is IT TAKES A WOMAN, early in Act 1. I was more surprised that neither of the songs that Ethel Merman sang in the show (which Channing couldnt, and didnt sing) were put back into the revival. World Take Me Back is a terrific song, and Love Look in My Window isn't bad either. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:37 pm EST 02/09/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - allineedisthegirl 11:02 am EST 02/09/18 | |
|
|
|
| Am I wrong in thinking that moment was added because of the inclusion of the song? I don't remember that being there before. But then I'm much less familiar with the stage piece than the movie. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: allineedisthegirl 01:43 pm EST 02/09/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - Chazwaza 01:37 pm EST 02/09/18 | |
|
|
|
| I saw the original production in 1970 with Merman, and the most recent Channing revival. I don't remember that bit of business in either of them (but who knows?). That bit wouldn't make much sense without the song. db |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: garyd 03:35 pm EST 02/09/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - allineedisthegirl 01:43 pm EST 02/09/18 | |
|
|
|
| The "bit" is not in the script of the original stage production and , until the current production, I have never seen it performed. FWIW, I think it is charming. It also adds a touch of sincere sentiment to Horace's rather profound and "sudden" change of heart regarding marriage to Dolly. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: ChipL955 10:39 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - Chazwaza 03:53 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| I think there's a strong case for "Penny in My Pocket," all found in the second verse of the song. We learn a lot about Horace's character from Jerry Herman's excellent lyric: - When impoverished, he's inventive ("With my only shirttail, I shined a rich man's shoe") - He's charitable ("I gave the nickel to a blind man") - He's hard-working ("I bought myself a wagon and started hauling ice") - He's business-savvy ("I cut the ice to ice cubes and got a higher price; I crushed the cubes to ices for still a higher fee") - He's polite ("En route to work next morning, I helped a lady cross") - He's sentimental ("But proudly I confess that in my pocket is that penny") Yes, he's also benefitted from luck and coincidence, but he's earned his half-million mostly from his own strength of character. This song softens Horace--he's not just a curmudgeon--and reveals that his apparent disdain for Ambrose, Cornelius and Barnaby is actually high expectations. And I think it helps us root for Dolly to find happiness with him. Does the audience grasp all of this? I don't know, but a friend of mine with whom I watched the Tonys, who had never heard the song before, completely got it, and could recite Horace's good qualities as soon as the number was over. Does the song belong in the show when not in the capable hands and lungs of a David Hyde Pierce or a Victor Garber? I think there's an even stronger case there. I've seen plenty of community theater productions of Dolly, and most of the Horaces are one-dimensional gruff, bumbling old grouches. (The last one I saw we nicknamed Horrid Vandergelder.) The poorer actor needs "Penny in My Pocket" even more than the better actor. Dolly works best when we all want to see her end up with him. In my opinion. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: Ned3301 07:39 am EST 02/10/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - ChipL955 10:39 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| There's also the odd moment when he says his wife died and the song abruptly stops for a moment. He seems utterly expressionless--as if he has soothed the pain by burying it in an emotionless existence. Then the music picks up again (almost immediately), and we realize that his cantankerous front protects him from having to care about anyone, or at least it is supposed to. But he does care. He can't help it--and he is especially graceless with Dolly (at first) because he likes her, and that threatens to explode his protection. When he finally proposes at the end, he is simply giving in to feelings he has suppressed earlier in the action. The penny that he gives her--his original penny, apparently--is symbolic of that. That's my guess, anyway. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: CCentero 11:16 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - ChipL955 10:39 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| Very good analysis of the song. I agree that Herman's lyric is excellent. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:46 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - ChipL955 10:39 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| Does the song belong in the show when not in the capable hands and lungs of a David Hyde Pierce or a Victor Garber? I think there's an even stronger case there. I've seen plenty of community theater productions of Dolly, and most of the Horaces are one-dimensional gruff, bumbling old grouches. (The last one I saw we nicknamed Horrid Vandergelder.) The poorer actor needs "Penny in My Pocket" even more than the better actor. Dolly works best when we all want to see her end up with him. But - does the song really rescue a one-dimensional grouch? (That's assuming that the song will be made available for future productions, which it may not be.) I think if the actor (or director) has already made Vandergelder nothing but a cardboard villain, I doubt that the song would do much to change that. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: ChipL955 11:11 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - Chromolume 10:46 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| Does it really "rescue" him? Really, really rescue him? As in: this song will consistently, inevitably work to add dimension and likeability to Horace's character, even if in Act One he's been "nothing but a cardboard villain"? I don't know that there's any song in any musical that has a consistent surefire effect. But it can't hurt--except that it "just makes the night longer," as Chazwaza said, yes, sadly, two minutes and 51 seconds more stuck in the Shubert Theatre watching that production. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:19 am EST 02/09/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - ChipL955 11:11 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| Does it really "rescue" him? Really, really rescue him? As in: this song will consistently, inevitably work to add dimension and likeability to Horace's character, even if in Act One he's been "nothing but a cardboard villain"? I don't know that there's any song in any musical that has a consistent surefire effect. Where did all that insane hyperbole come from? That has nothing to do with the question I posed in my post. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: ChipL955 04:39 am EST 02/09/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - Chromolume 12:19 am EST 02/09/18 | |
|
|
|
| I think it all depends on the performance. I always thought "A Little Priest" did wonders for the character of Sweeney Todd--it lightened him up, it showed us his intelligence and humor, it showed us why Mrs. Lovett might love him and it developed chemistry between them that made the end of the show more emotionally impactful. Then I saw the movie, and Johnny Depp's joyless performance of "A Little Priest" did none of those things. It made no sense to me whatsoever. They're playing a game, which implies fun, but Sweeney's not even smiling. So, to (try to) answer your question, I think the song "Penny in My Pocket" can give an actor a chance to give Horace some additional dimension, but the song won't do it for him automatically. Without the song, there are few other chances to accomplish that in the show. So it serves a useful purpose (on paper, at least) and makes a case for itself as part of the score. "Does the song really rescue him?" Whether talking about "Penny in My Pocket" or "A Little Priest," my answer is no--the performance does (or doesn't). |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| its a cheap number for the tonys. | |
| Posted by: dramedy 04:15 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - Chazwaza 03:53 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| Since he couldn't do a taped production number at Shubert, Rudin chose a one person song for a nearly sold out show. Would a splashy number last June really be selling tickets for Peters? I doubt it. It cost spring awakening $200k to present a number at the Tonys. I was surprised falsettos did, but it is touring so maybe they thought it was a good investment. I doubt penny number cost $200k. I agree it doesn't add much to thenshow to include, but I don't find it an overlong show like les miz or Hamilton that a needless number makes even longer. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: its a cheap number for the tonys. | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:19 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: its a cheap number for the tonys. - dramedy 04:15 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| I wonder if an excuse might be found this June for Peters and company to do "Hello, Dolly!" at the Tonys. It was a truly spectacular moment and might goose ticket sales now that Midler is gone and tickets can be had. Not sure if it's wise to give away the big moment on television, but who knows? |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Peters will be near the end of her run. | |
| Posted by: dramedy 04:23 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: re: its a cheap number for the tonys. - JereNYC 04:19 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| And it cost lots of money and he would have to beg to get a spot for last season show. I don't see it happening. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:00 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - Chazwaza 03:53 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| I look at it as a fun curtain raiser that also gives our leading man something more to sing. It still has no place in the context of the book and I think it would feel very different if some attempt had been made to integrate it back into the show. I do think it gives insight into the character though...we find out that Vandergelder's half-a-million dollar fortune isn't entirely through his own hard work...we find out that he lucked into a job and then married the boss' daughter, who then died. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: garyd 04:32 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - JereNYC 04:00 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| Doesn't Horace give Dolly the "penny from his pocket" in the final scene? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:39 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - garyd 04:32 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| He does. Dolly returns his purse in the final scene...I guess, at some point in the interim, she retrieved it from Barnaby...and he takes out the penny, puts it in the purse, and tells her to keep it. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:31 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - JereNYC 04:00 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| "I look at it as a fun curtain raiser that also gives our leading man something more to sing. It still has no place in the context of the book and I think it would feel very different if some attempt had been made to integrate it back into the show. I do think it gives insight into the character though...we find out that Vandergelder's half-a-million dollar fortune isn't entirely through his own hard work...we find out that he lucked into a job and then married the boss' daughter, who then died." I agree on all counts. I think the number works perfectly in its current slot in the show, and even though it's a very funny and charming song with a catchy tune, I can't even imagine it as the Act I closer. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? | |
| Posted by: CCentero 10:11 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
| In reply to: re: What's the case for Penny in My Pocket? - Michael_Portantiere 04:31 pm EST 02/08/18 | |
|
|
|
| The song produces that very sweet payoff in the end that helps make us feel that Dolly and Horace will be very happy together. Very smart addition. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
Time to render: 0.049460 seconds.