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| re: The Painstaking Detail That Went Into Lauren Ambrose’s My Fair Lady Hat | |
| Last Edit: lordofspeech 02:26 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 02:25 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
| In reply to: re: The Painstaking Detail That Went Into Lauren Ambrose’s My Fair Lady Hat - singleticket 01:04 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
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| True. The accent and the vocal placement for Eliza are clearly learnt by an American. But the sounds of Higgins and Pickering and Mrs Higgins work. Idle thought...I wonder if Cynthia Erivo got consideration for Eliza. She has more of the force-of-nature energy that Julie Andrews had. But maybe they were set on this soft-flower version of Eliza from the git-go. (Though I do hear that her interpretation works very well for the orchestra seats. She just never rises to the occasion Higgins demands of her...at least not as I see it...so her transformation seems simply one of accent and oufit rather than a transcendence of her self-pity, her passive-aggressive nature, and her undervaluing of herself. I do go on...Probably need to see it again....wondering too, tho, if the director really wanted to take men to task, isn’t the real “villain” of the piece Eliza’s father? An alcoholic absentee baby-daddy of the first order, a man has never valued his daughter for anything except for what money she can give him and then, later, is excited that he may profit from her as a prostitutable commodity. He’s the man whose type has enslaved her. Higgins, in his equality-consciousness, treating a duchess like a guttersnipe and vice-versa, teaches her what true love is (not romance but equal-love). |
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| re: The Painstaking Detail That Went Into Lauren Ambrose’s My Fair Lady Hat | |
| Posted by: bobby2 11:46 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
| In reply to: re: The Painstaking Detail That Went Into Lauren Ambrose’s My Fair Lady Hat - lordofspeech 02:25 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
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| I don't think anyone else was considered. Sher seems to have great faith in Ambrose for some reason. (remember the aborted Funny Girl?) | |
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| re: The Painstaking Detail That Went Into Lauren Ambrose’s My Fair Lady Hat | |
| Posted by: den 07:39 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
| In reply to: re: The Painstaking Detail That Went Into Lauren Ambrose’s My Fair Lady Hat - bobby2 11:46 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
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| The reason Sher has faith in Ambrose is that she is wonderful. Saw the show yesterday, and while I generally loved it, I have some minor complaints. But Ambrose was a revelation to me. | |
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| re: The Painstaking Detail That Went Into Lauren Ambrose’s My Fair Lady Hat | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 03:55 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 03:53 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
| In reply to: re: The Painstaking Detail That Went Into Lauren Ambrose’s My Fair Lady Hat - lordofspeech 02:25 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
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| Interesting and has me thinking -- I wonder how Lena Horne during the original might have been as Eliza, as she is lighter-skinned than Ms. Erivo, and in things like "Show Boat" (which she wanted to play and did in abbreviated form in the film "Till the Clouds Roll By") had that whole character arc of Julie "trying to pass", and maybe someone like Lonette McKee, Julie in two Broadway productions, in an earlier production of "My Fair Lady". | |
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| re: The Painstaking Detail That Went Into Lauren Ambrose’s My Fair Lady Hat | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:42 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
| In reply to: re: The Painstaking Detail That Went Into Lauren Ambrose’s My Fair Lady Hat - lordofspeech 02:25 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
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| "Isn’t the real 'villain' of the piece Eliza’s father? An alcoholic absentee baby-daddy of the first order, a man has never valued his daughter for anything except for what money she can give him and then, later, is excited that he may profit from her as a prostitutable commodity." Good points. I would say Alfie Doolittle is presented in MFL and in PYGMALION as largely a comic character, sort of an outrageous but lovable rogue. But if you look at his relationship with and treatment of Eliza on a more serious level, it's really quite sad and disturbing. And you didn't even mention the fact that, according to Doolittle himself, corporal punishment was also very much a part of the picture; at one point, Alfie says to Higgins re Eliza, "If you have any trouble with 'er, give 'er a few licks o' the strap. That's the way to improve 'er mind." Interesting how the subject of physical abuse of women has been and continues to be such a huge flash point in CAROUSEL and is hardly even mentioned in the discussion of MFL, but I'm sure that's mostly a question of dramatic focus. |
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| Alfie D. a villain? | |
| Last Edit: StageDoorJohnny 06:50 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 06:50 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
| In reply to: re: The Painstaking Detail That Went Into Lauren Ambrose’s My Fair Lady Hat - Michael_Portantiere 03:42 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
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| Really, corporal punishment in 1914 -- how shocking - pfft! If you don't like it, that's fine and I have no problem with that, but expecting characters to conform to today's sensitivities is silly. Do you call Macbeth stupid because he believes in witches and prophecy? As to Eliza and Alfie's relationship, at the tea party/Ascot scene, who is it that Eliza speaks of admiringly? Alfie. The only time in MFL of physical abuse is threatened is when Higgins raises his hand to Eliza. Alfie never says he's hit Eliza, he suggests that Higgins do it. Spare the rod sort of thing. in the long run, the way society treats Eliza because of her dialect is far more damaging | |
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| re: Alfie D. a villain? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:05 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
| In reply to: Alfie D. a villain? - StageDoorJohnny 06:50 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
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| "Really, corporal punishment in 1914 -- how shocking - pfft! If you don't like it, that's fine and I have no problem with that, but expecting characters to conform to today's sensitivities is silly." Sorry you found my comment "silly," but maybe that's because you missed my point, which was to contrast the great angst over Billy hitting Julie (and Louise) in CAROUSEL as compared to Alfie Doolittle's free admission that, sometimes in the past, he beat his daughter Eliza with a strap. My post had nothing to do with my "expecting characters to conform to today's sensitivities," as I have no such expectation or wish. |
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| re: Alfie D. a villain? | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 02:41 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Alfie D. a villain? - Michael_Portantiere 12:05 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| he never says any such thing, I suggest you read the script again. His suggestion that Higgins employ that 'punishment' is certainly there, but there is no admission that HE actually did it. And comparing a situation in Carousel, which is a dramatic musical to a situation in MFL, a comedy, seems a little problematic to me. And apparently to others -- hence the lack of 'angst' |
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| re: Alfie D. a villain? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:28 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Alfie D. a villain? - StageDoorJohnny 02:41 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| "He never says any such thing, I suggest you read the script again. His suggestion that Higgins employ that 'punishment' is certainly there, but there is no admission that HE actually did it. Thanks for your suggestion, but to me, the strong implication is that Doolittle himself has hit Eliza with a strap as a form of discipline at some point(s) during their parent/child relationship -- I assume when she was younger and they were living together. If he had never used a strap on her himself, why would he suddenly happen to suggest to Higgins that he might do so? To me, that would make no sense. "And comparing a situation in Carousel, which is a dramatic musical to a situation in MFL, a comedy, seems a little problematic to me. And apparently to others -- hence the lack of 'angst.'" I agree, to a certain extent, and that's what I meant about focus and context. But also, I hope it goes without saying that despite the overall tone of MFL being considerably lighter than that of CAROUSEL, the former certainly has some very serious and thought-provoking elements, and the point that Eliza very much wants to escape a hard, cruel, abusive life is one of them. |
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| re: Alfie D. a villain? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 06:35 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 06:34 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Alfie D. a villain? - Michael_Portantiere 03:28 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| I think Doolittle implies that he has threatened Eliza with a strap in the past, not necessarily hit her with one. Eliza also mentions in the text that she has had a black eye before, but that's not necessarily from her father -- it could have been in school, with another flower girl trying to move in on her turf, etc. It's possible that Doolittle hit her to keep her disciplined, but years ago corporal punishment at least here in the U.S. was legal -- not sure about the UK. Also, not sure if one whack would be considered excessive, though nowadays with some parenting advocates it might be. | |
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| re: Alfie D. a villain? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 08:20 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Alfie D. a villain? - PlayWiz 06:34 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| Again, I think what Alfie Doolittle says indicates quite clearly that he hit her with a strap in the past as a form of discipline, presumably during her childhood. I'm not sure why some people are so resistant to this interpretation when it seems so clear, but I guess it's because they don't like to think of Eliza's father doing that to her, because they like to think of him as a more benign, roguishly lovable character. | |
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| re: The Painstaking Detail That Went Into Lauren Ambrose’s My Fair Lady Hat | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 02:56 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 02:54 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
| In reply to: re: The Painstaking Detail That Went Into Lauren Ambrose’s My Fair Lady Hat - lordofspeech 02:25 pm EDT 04/05/18 | |
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| Eliza thinks Pickering not Higgins taught her the difference between how a gentleman treats a lady vs how a cad treats a guttersnipe... I suppose that's what Pickering is there for in Shaw's play, as well as serving as a Watson-like foil to draw out Higgins' outrageousness. For some reason I was really focusing on Pickering in this production, maybe because I really like the actor who played him. Has Doolittle enslaved his daughter? I'm not sure, she seems pretty wise to his excesses and desirous of something better, and even towards the end, forgiving of his selfishness. Eliza, like people who can pass as different races and can personally move back and forth through the boundaries of racial segregation, is granted a deeper understanding of how strong the walls are that keep people in their separate social spheres. And I suppose we in the audience can share in that understanding if we want to. |
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