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| re: 1985: The year they didn't give Tonys for Best Actor and Actress in a Musical | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 09:42 am EDT 04/06/18 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 09:41 am EDT 04/06/18 | |
| In reply to: re: 1985: The year they didn't give Tonys for Best Actor and Actress in a Musical - tmdonahue 07:40 am EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| Tmdonahue, you've brought up this topic before, but why wouldn't ''Smokey Joe's Cafe'' automatically have been a Tony Musical contender? A number of revues, going back to 1959's ''La Plume de Ma Tante,'' have been up for Best Musical. Among them: ''Don't Bother Me, I Can't Cope'' (1973); ''Bubbling Brown Sugar'' (1976); ''Side by Side by Sondheim'' (1977), etc. And ''Ain't Misbehavin' '' (1978) won Best Musical, beating out two other revues, ''Dancin' '' and ''Runaways.'' |
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| re: 1985: The year they didn't give Tonys for Best Actor and Actress in a Musical | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 05:49 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
| In reply to: re: 1985: The year they didn't give Tonys for Best Actor and Actress in a Musical - WaymanWong 09:41 am EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| The only written source I have is the Rules and Regulations for the Tony Awards from the 2015-2016 season. Those rules may not have been used before and may not apply this season. At that time, the rules described an original musical, instead of a revival, as "substantially" new material. "La Plume de Ma Tante" was all new. So was "Don't Bother Me, I Can't Cope." Jerome Robbins' Dancin'" was all revived dances, old material. There is not book credit; the cast has no character names; the music is all existing before the show began. The producer's of "Dancin'" may have been aware of the issue, as they ostentatiously subtitled the show, "A New Musical Entertainment." "Ain't Misbehavin'" is somewhere in between. The music is all old as is most of the lyrics. Maybe 30 percent of the lyrics are new, to be generous. There is no book, per se, although there is a broadly-characterized relationship among the five "characters" on stage. I think people would disagree, but the benefit of the doubt is that "Ain't Misbehavin'" was a new musical. In 1995, "Smokey Joe's Cafe" was ruled by the Administration Committee, although all the songs are pre-existing and there is no book. SJC was nominated for best musical. Otherwise "Sunset Blvd," the only original musical on Broadway that season, could not have been voted on by the Nominating Committee nor the Tony Voters. Remember there is a part, a BIG part, of the Tonys that is for marketing Broadway, the road, and NYC. In sum, I think I was wrong: a revue can be a new musical. But a revue that is made-up of old material shouldn't qualify. But the Administration Committee of the Tony Awards is the real power behind the awards. The power of the Nomination Committee and the Tony Voters pale in comparison. And folks can grouse, but the Administration Committee makes the meaningful decisions. |
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| re: 1985: The year they didn't give Tonys for Best Actor and Actress in a Musical | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 12:17 am EDT 04/07/18 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 12:15 am EDT 04/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: 1985: The year they didn't give Tonys for Best Actor and Actress in a Musical - tmdonahue 05:49 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| As far as I can tell, revues, whether they consisted of new stuff or old, always have been Tony-eligible for Best Musical. But if you can name a show that was disqualified to compete in that category because it was a musical revue, I bow to your knowledge. |
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| FYI-"Runaways" was not a revue | |
| Posted by: NJGUY 04:15 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
| In reply to: re: 1985: The year they didn't give Tonys for Best Actor and Actress in a Musical - WaymanWong 09:41 am EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| Runaways was okay and Ain't Misbehaving was certainly a valid winner hat year. | |
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| Some sources call "Runaways" a revue | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 11:03 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
| In reply to: FYI-"Runaways" was not a revue - NJGUY 04:15 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| At the Playbill Vault, its synopsis calls it a ''musical revue of songs and monologues delivered by children who have run away from home.'' And when Encores! revived ''Runaways'' in 2016, the New York magazine review said it was ''a revue about the plight of street kids.'' |
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| re: Some sources call "Runaways" a revue | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 11:20 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
| In reply to: Some sources call "Runaways" a revue - WaymanWong 11:03 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| The line between revues and book shows can sometimes be thin, and then there are different types of shows that get called revues. I mean, there are obviously huge differences between revues like As Thousands Cheer or New Faces of 1952 and Side by Side by Sondheim or Ain't Misbehavin'. Anyway, I would never call Runaways a revue. |
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| re: Some sources call "Runaways" a revue | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 12:12 am EDT 04/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Some sources call "Runaways" a revue - AlanScott 11:20 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| Just as a ''musical'' is broad enough to cover musical comedies, musical dramas, etc., maybe a ''revue'' is broad enough to cover its variations, too. | |
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| re: Some sources call "Runaways" a revue | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 01:02 am EDT 04/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Some sources call "Runaways" a revue - WaymanWong 12:12 am EDT 04/07/18 | |
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| If we consider novellas to be a subset of novels, then we might consider revues to be a subset of musicals. But the converse would not generally be true with novels and novellas. We might consider Breakfast at Tiffany's or A Christmas Carol to be novels, but we wouldn't consider Great Expectations or The Golden Bowl to be novellas. So we might consider As Thousands Cheer or Scrambled Feet or even Side by Side by Sondheim to be musicals, but we wouldn't consider Carousel or even Hello, Dolly! to be revues. There have been shows that have truly straddled the line, for instance, some of Irving Berlin's early shows apparently did. For me Runaways does not straddle the line. | |
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| Novellas are not a subset of novels | |
| Posted by: BigM 04:28 pm EDT 04/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Some sources call "Runaways" a revue - AlanScott 01:02 am EDT 04/07/18 | |
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| They're shorter, a different thing. Just like one-acts are not a subset of full-length plays. | |
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| re: Novellas are not a subset of novels | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:50 pm EDT 04/07/18 | |
| In reply to: Novellas are not a subset of novels - BigM 04:28 pm EDT 04/07/18 | |
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| That's why I wrote "If we consider . . . ." I didn't write that I considered them to be a subset of novels. :) Actually, I think the analogy is an altogether bad one. Even last night, I thought it was a bad one. It was late, and I was just trying to come up with something that would sound good, even if it didn't stand up to inspection. I just don't think Runaways is a revue. And in general I don't think that shows like Ain't Misbehavin', Side by Side by Sondheim, A Grand Night for Singing and Smokey Joe's Cafe should be considered musicals for award purposes. If we more often saw the old-fashioned type of revue exemplified by shows like The Band Wagon, As Thousands Cheer, Lend an Ear and the New Faces shows, I might think that those should be considered musicals for awards purposes. When it comes to Runaways, though I didn't like it much way back when at the Public, I think there would be absolutely no reason not to think it a musical for awards purposes (or even a musical not for awards purposes). In my mind (or at least in my surely imperfect memory of what it was like), it's a musical. Obviously, it doesn't tell a straightforward or fairly straightforward story in a straightforward or fairly straightforward way as Wonderful Town, West Side Story, Wicked and Adding Machine do, but it's a musical. That's really all I wanted to say. As usual, I've used a lot of words to say something simple (or at least that could be said with fewer words). |
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| re: Novellas are not a subset of novels | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:49 pm EDT 04/07/18 | |
| In reply to: Novellas are not a subset of novels - BigM 04:28 pm EDT 04/07/18 | |
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| I don't have an opinion on novellas, but one acts are most certainly a subset of plays. A fair proportion of Tony (and other) award winning plays fall in that subset. | |
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| re: Novellas are not a subset of novels | |
| Posted by: BigM 05:54 pm EDT 04/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Novellas are not a subset of novels - ryhog 04:49 pm EDT 04/07/18 | |
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| Yes, of course they are. They're just not a subset of FULL-LENGTH plays, but something separate. | |
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| re: Novellas are not a subset of novels | |
| Posted by: ryhog 06:22 pm EDT 04/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Novellas are not a subset of novels - BigM 05:54 pm EDT 04/07/18 | |
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| So, as an example, Indecent is not a full length play and also a one act play? If you were referring to short plays, then yes of course I'd agree. I just think these analogies are faltering. |
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| re: Some sources call "Runaways" a revue | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:59 am EDT 04/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Some sources call "Runaways" a revue - AlanScott 01:02 am EDT 04/07/18 | |
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| FWIW, the League treats revues as a subset of musicals. And its designations for the shows you mention are in accord with yours (meaning Runaways is not a revue). I have always been surprised that there is no designation for jukebox musicals which, to me, is at least as organic a distinction as the revue, if not more so. |
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| For a more recent example of an old-style revue, I'd mention Martin Short: Fame Becomes Me (nm) | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 11:26 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Some sources call "Runaways" a revue - AlanScott 11:20 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| nm | |
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| re: FYI-"Runaways" was not a revue | |
| Posted by: bobby2 08:35 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
| In reply to: FYI-"Runaways" was not a revue - NJGUY 04:15 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| does Runaways have a plot? Or is it more like Working (a la A Chorus Line) with people stepping forward to tell their stories. | |
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| re: FYI-"Runaways" was not a revue | |
| Posted by: SJHYM 09:33 am EDT 04/07/18 | |
| In reply to: re: FYI-"Runaways" was not a revue - bobby2 08:35 pm EDT 04/06/18 | |
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| Runaways does not have a plot. And yes it is a lot like Working with teens telling their stories through songs and monologues. I have directed Runaways twice and I would not classify it as a revue. The original cast album gives a good feel for the show. Elizabeth Swados wrote some interesting music but some of the show is dated at this point. I would also say that Elizabeth Swados was wonderful. I reached out to her several times with some questions and some small changes and she was gracious, helpful and offered other suggestions. | |
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