Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: they have to make money | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 07:36 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 07:33 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - PlayWiz 06:04 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| But this is such a pointless debate... the book (and intentions) of Kiss Me Kate is an entirely different animal than the book of Merrily We Roll Along, as are the scores. And I think you'd be hard pressed to find a majority of people who consider Kiss Me Kate to be one of the greats in terms of the greatest musicals. Surely it used to be, and is a classic and a good piece of musical theater, but it is hardly one of "the greats" nor is it, in my understanding, considered to be when taking in all of the major musicals. I wouldn't even consider it one of the greats of the "classics" era... it really depends on how long your list is. And while it may or may not be a better score than Anything Goes (in terms of existing in the play), AG is much more beloved and remembered song for song. The book to Merrily has always been difficult - to some it has been largely fixed or improved, to others (like myself) the revisions have damn near ruined the fragile but often (and formerly) amazing show that it is/was... either way, what the book has or does or attempts is so different than KMK, and where it succeeds it, and where it tries even if it fails, it offers so much that KMK does not and does not attempt to (and visa versa). One could try to say that if you're going for just a good time with a musical, KMK wins -- but person to person the definition of "a good time with a musical" changes... I have a better time at Merrily, even with the problems it may have, than I do at KMK, even though I enjoy KMK too. And why are we talking about KMK like some perfect piece of writing, with no "problems"? It largely gets a pass because it's an old fashioned musical comedy and we don't expect as much from it or don't look at it with the same brutal analytical microscope. Either way the shows are basically incomparable if you ask me, or at least it's pointless to try. |
|
| reply to this message |
| re: they have to make money | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:15 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - Chazwaza 07:33 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| "Either way the shows are basically incomparable..." Funnily enough, I would suggest the opposite: they are both cases of exquisite musical compositions welded to awkward, skeletal books showcasing skeletal characters who are only given dimensions when they sing. I find them equal failures as dramatic theater, and equally thrilling when listening to the top-shelf songs. Beyond that, it's really a matter of taste; for me, Sondheim is more compelling, but I was raised on him. |
|
| reply to this message |
| re: they have to make money | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 09:27 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:27 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - Chazwaza 07:33 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| I should start by saying that I'm not one of the greatest fans of KMK. Still . . . You wrote, "And I think you'd be hard pressed to find a majority of people who consider Kiss Me Kate to be one of the greats in terms of the greatest musicals." From what basic pool of people would we be choosing those who would vote on this? You wrote, "I wouldn't even consider it one of the greats of the "classics" era... it really depends on how long your list is. And while it may or may not be a better score than Anything Goes (in terms of existing in the play), AG is much more beloved and remembered song for song." I don't think particularly think so, although if you're thinking of the revisions of AG with their interpolations of popular Porter songs from other shows, maybe then, but even then maybe not. I say that not to put down AG, which I think is terrific (especially in its original version, very rarely seen for decades, which has a remarkably funny book as well as dazzling orchestrations far superior to those heard in the revisions). Anyway, I'll just point out a few things: Kiss Me, Kate was the second book musical to run more than 1,000 performances on Broadway, although admittedly South Pacific, the third, came along later in the same season. The original reviews were the kinds of raves that come along rarely, and for decades thereafter it was one of the most popular shows in the rep. When the BBC decided to start BBC2 in 1964, a new television production of Kiss Me, Kate was chosen to attract audiences on the first night of the new station. In 1958, Capitol made a new recording of KMK in stereo featuring the four original leads, the only such example I can think of in the history of cast recordings. MFL is not really comparable as that was a cast recording of the London production, and it was only three years after the Broadway production opened, while MFL was still running strong on Broadway and on its North American tour. But KMK was still huge. In 1962, lines of dialogue heard on the KMK OBCR were quoted in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? on the clear assumption that just about everyone would know what was being quoted. In 1972, Lehman Engel in his book Words With Music chose KMK as one of only 12 musicals that he thought would last. In addition to the 1964 BBC2 production, KMK received major U.S. television productions in 1958 and 1968. Unless I'm forgetting something, it was the first older musical to receive two virtually complete recordings on two CDs of the original score, even if it neither was perhaps quite truly complete (not sure about that) nor truly represented the score as originally heard on Broadway (perhaps because it was not realized at the time how many changes were made in the licensed version from what was heard on opening night on Broadway, but even if it was realized, at the time those original materials were not easily available). We still don't have a single comparable recording of Oklahoma!, Carousel, Fiddler on the Roof and I don't know how many other classics, but we have two of KMK. (Admittedly, this is not necessarily because no one has wanted to do or has tried to do such recordings of the scores for the three shows I mentioned. McGlinn and EMI were going to do an Oklahoma! until McGlinn managed to scuttle it thanks to his unfailingly gracious personality.) It is one of the few Broadway musicals to have been published with a full orchestral score in an annotated critical edition, not to mention with variant versions of several of the same numbers. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: they have to make money | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:32 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - AlanScott 09:27 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| Unless I'm forgetting something, it was the first older musical to receive two virtually complete recordings on two CDs of the original score, even if it neither was perhaps quite truly complete (not sure about that) nor truly represented the score as originally heard on Broadway (perhaps because it was not realized at the time how many changes were made in the licensed version from what was heard on opening night on Broadway, but even if it was realized, at the time those original materials were not easily available). Well, of course, in 1848, no one was really focused on archiving a full show score. But largely, what's there is faithful enough to the original given the era - it's certainly not chopped up like Follies or Carnival would be some years later. Though the beginning is odd - the opening orchestral material is from the Entr'acte, not the Overture - and that music leads into "Another Op'nin" in a way that was absolutely different from the stage show, considering that song did not actually open the production. (One of the many demerits of the 1999 revival is that they changed the order of the opening scene so that the song could open the show - a far more ordinary and obvious choice than what was done in the 1948 production.) But of course you knew all this...;-) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: they have to make money | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 11:57 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - Chromolume 11:32 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| "One of the many demerits of the 1999 revival is that they changed the order of the opening scene so that the song could open the show - a far more ordinary and obvious choice than what was done in the 1948 production." Couldn't agree more. Perhaps inspired by the beloved Peter Stone AGYG revisal earlier the same year. But maybe I wasn't clear about the complete recordings. I'm referring to the McGlinn and the JAY KMK recordings, my point being that 40-50 years after the original, it was considered enough of a beloved landmark to get the two-CD treatment with what were believed to be the original orchestrations. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: they have to make money | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:06 am EDT 05/18/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - AlanScott 11:57 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| Perhaps inspired by the beloved Peter Stone AGYG revisal earlier the same year. Yes - and right down to the cliche slow/rubato openings of both shows. I'm referring to the McGlinn and the JAY KMK recordings Oops - you're right - I was confusing this with your earlier comments about the 2 original cast recordings as well. ;-) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| One tiny annotation only. | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 10:23 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - AlanScott 09:27 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| Kiss Me, Kate was the second book musical to run more than 1,000 performances on Broadway, although admittedly South Pacific, the third, came along later in the same season. Actually Kate (1948) was the third book musical to play more than 1,000 performances on Broadway, after Oklahoma! (1943) and Annie Get Your Gun (1946), and South Pacific the fourth. Of course you know this; Annie just slipped your mind momentarily, as it slips mine from time to time! : ) Of course, your basic point stands: When Kate played its 1,000-plus performances, it was in very rare and very heady company. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: One tiny annotation only. | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:26 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| In reply to: One tiny annotation only. - keikekaze 10:23 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| Thank you! How did I miss that, especially since AGYG has been on my mind with the anniversary just having passed. And before posting I did look at an old list of long-running Broadway shows so I should have seen it. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Adjustment to the above | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:42 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - AlanScott 09:27 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| Re the next-to-last paragraph: Something like that was also done with Annie Get Your Gun, from the same two companies that did KMK and with the same conductors on both, but the difference is that those two AGYG recordings represent different versions of the score from different versions of the show, enabling the recordings to be clearly differentiated for people who buy such recordings and giving those people good reason to want both. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: they have to make money | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 07:41 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - Chazwaza 07:33 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| It's not pointless, because we've both made points. Someone started this by comparing the two, since they are both going to be done by the Roundabout, and flippantly commented on preferring one by being dismissive of the other's songs. They both have fine scores, but otherwise they are entirely different animals. However, you never know what kinds of similarities you might find among anything that's thrown out there until you try, and sometimes, not always, that might yield something valuable. Perhaps not so much in this case. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: they have to make money | |
| Posted by: lowwriter 08:47 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - PlayWiz 07:41 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| Couldn't they have done Merrily at Studio 54? I knew Fissco was doing Merrily a few months ago. I spoke to two of the actors at a reading for the Angels in America book. They also mentioned quite a while back they've been wanting to do Merrily after the success of their Into the Woods. I'm curious how they will try to transform it. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: they have to make money | |
| Posted by: sirpupnyc 09:10 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - lowwriter 08:47 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| Unless they have the Sondheim back, they surely want KMK in the bigger house (Studio). The plan for that must be an extended run. And it's too far along now to change. (Kelli may be the only one cast, but she must already have a contract for more than they could pay her Off-Broadway.) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: they have to make money | |
| Posted by: lowwriter 05:39 am EDT 05/18/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - sirpupnyc 09:10 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| It's strange to me that Roundabout wouldn't do Kiss Me Kate in the American Airlines Theater. If they did John Lithgow's one man show there, why not Kate? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: they have to make money | |
| Posted by: sirpupnyc 10:50 am EDT 05/18/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - lowwriter 05:39 am EDT 05/18/18 | |
|
|
|
| True West is in the way there. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: they have to make money | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 07:52 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
| In reply to: re: they have to make money - PlayWiz 07:41 pm EDT 05/17/18 | |
|
|
|
| Fair enough! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
Time to render: 0.037736 seconds.