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| Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: bobby2 01:00 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| She is really perfect in the role. Every inflection is just expert. (and the humor she injects into it is just perfect...) | |
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| Comedic timing | |
| Posted by: bobby2 11:31 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - bobby2 01:00 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| Thanks for all the interesting responses. One thing I'd say that made Gleason so unique is her comic abilities. Funny how many people miss this in their performances. I felt the same way about Norma Desmond. Glenn Close got laughs. Many others in the role didn't. |
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| re: Comedic timing | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:02 am EDT 06/20/18 | |
| In reply to: Comedic timing - bobby2 11:31 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| Well, I think "comic abilities" is the important phrase. Not everyone has them to the degree that Gleason does, and the role was built on her. It's not that people who play the role don't realize that it's nice to get laughs in the role, which is what it sounds like you mean when you write that people "miss this in their performances." I'm not sure if that's what you intended. One thing that I can tell you is that all those laughs didn't come overnight for Gleason. She worked through weeks of previews to find them, and she'd already played the role at the Old Globe. Admittedly, changes were being made during the Old Globe run, and what started previews at the Martin Beck had significant differences from what had played at the Old Globe, and then lots of changes were made during previews. Still, a fair amount remained fairly consistent for her, and she nonetheless had to keep working to find all those laughs. I think it's perhaps impossible to expect another actress with a few weeks of rehearsal and then a run of just a few weeks altogether, as in most productions of the show. to get those laughs. I'm sure that some actresses playing the role find it a strain to know that they are going to compared with Gleason, the actress on whom the role was made, and that they will be found wanting if they don't get all those laughs. Should they imitate her? That's rarely a good idea. Some will be happy to watch her and learn what they can while also trying to avoid directly imitating her, while others will simply not want to watch her at all, and I can understand both choices. For one thing, if you know that you're failing to get the laughs she got, it's probably going to affect your confidence. So it can be better to just not know where she got laughs. |
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| re: Comedic timing | |
| Posted by: bobby2 02:27 am EDT 06/20/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Comedic timing - AlanScott 02:02 am EDT 06/20/18 | |
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| I just meant in general not specifically as The Baker's Wife, some people in musical theater fail to get the laughs. It was called musical comedy at first after all. I was just trying to praise Gleason as somebody who had the ability to be funny. (sort of like how I remember Glenn Close getting huge laughs in Sunset Blvd. on the part when she presents her Salome screenplay to him and he asks "how old is this character?" and she says 16. Close brought the house down with her delivery of that line while I've seen others get nothing. BTW how was Cynthia Sikes in Into the Woods? I was a big St. Elsewhere watcher as a kid. |
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| re: Comedic timing | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:46 am EDT 06/20/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Comedic timing - bobby2 02:27 am EDT 06/20/18 | |
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| I'm sorry to say that Sikes was overall the weakest of the women I saw as the Baker's Wife in the original production and the tour. She got by, but she seemed to be kind of pushing for laughs, and not really getting them. It seemed like she must have seen Gleason several times as she often seemed to be imitating her, but to much less effect. I couldn't help but wonder how much Lapine worked with her. It seemed to me that with the right help, she could have been better, but perhaps he did give her good guidance and it didn't help enough. Still, she was passable. and she had presence (whatever that really means). | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: sf 06:02 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - bobby2 01:00 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| Based on the video of the Broadway production, and having seen the original London production, Imelda Staunton was much, much better. Gleason, like more or less all the performances in the Broadway production, comes across on the video as slick, glib, and very, very shallow. Staunton was at least as funny - probably funnier - and found far more depth in it. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:21 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - bobby2 01:00 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| I saw all the women who played the role in the original Broadway production except Lauren Mitchell, who alternated with Kay McClelland for a couple of weeks when Gleason left, until Mary Gordon Murray took over. Murray then left for the tour. She was replaced by Cynthia Sikes, and Sikes was replaced by McClelland, who really was the best of the others. In fact, although she was not as funny as Gleason (no one ever will be), I thought she was just as good. I saw the tour as it was winding down. The cast at that point was wildly uneven, with some wonderful performances, with several vets of the Broadway production in the cast at that point, and some painfully poor ones. Judy McLane had by this time replaced Mary Gordon Murray as the Baker's Wife, and I thought she was very nearly as good Gleason and McClelland. She had a slightly weak start but by the end of the show, I really thought she was as good as Gleason and McClelland. It may have helped that her Baker was Adam Grupper, who had replaced Philip Hoffman as the Steward and understudy for the Baker on Broadway (and had played the Baker when Zien was on vacation). He's still my favorite Baker. And Betsy Joslyn, my favorite Witch, was on the tour. But some of the performances were just awful. |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: donnyboy 12:17 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - bobby2 01:00 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| Imelda Staunton played The Baker's Wife in the original London production of Into the Woods and was truly magnificent - comic and heartbreaking. She won the Olivier award for Best Actress in a Musical (the second of her four Oliviers). Obviously it was in a very different production to the broadway incarnation - this one directed by Richard Jones which overall felt darker and more Grimm-esque I preferred it to the Lapine original and Staunton to Gleason - but maybe that's because I only saw the Broadway version once whilst I was a repeat visitor to the relatively short-lived London production. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: blfan 02:01 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - donnyboy 12:17 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| Staunton's reading of "This is ridiculous. What am I doing here? I'm in the wrong story!" is perfection. | |
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| Imelda / Original London Production | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 12:57 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 12:55 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - donnyboy 12:17 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| I didn't get to see the full show, but the pictures and videos I've seen are fascinating and intriguing, and what I've heard described of the staging and designs from a cast member had me swooning. It's a production I would have eaten up with a spoon. And Imelda on the OLC recording is absolutely incredible. I can't say I prefer her or not to Gleason, but I think she equaled her in her own take on the role. God I wish a video of this unique, visionary production existed. Thinking of it makes me all the more bummed and angry that Lapine got to direct the Broadway revival instead of giving someone with a different view of the material a chance to bring their vision to it. What a waste. Lapine had his chance and what he did was perfect, but give someone else and someone else's vision a chance now. (and I don't mean the Fiasco production - which I liked in many ways, but I want to see the vision of someone who can direct the show AS WRITTEN). |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 12:16 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - bobby2 01:00 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| The big "problem," I think, is that Gleason's brilliant performance is captured on video and is, thus, ingrained in so many people who love the show. It's always going to be difficult to acclimate to another actress in the role when you literally hear Gleason's voice and line readings in your head. I imagine it's also very difficult for actresses to thread that needle...that can either give the audience what they're hearing in their heads, an approximation if not an imitation of Gleason, or risk losing the audience by trying a different approach to the character and having the audience contrasting and comparing in their heads all night. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: Thom915 01:14 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - JereNYC 12:16 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| There is indeed some validity in what you say however no one is asking "did anyone come close to Bernadette Peters (fine as she was) or Chip Zien in "Into the Woods?" though they too are on the video and the OBC album. Gleason's performance was just as close to perfect i think as one can ever get in a theater show. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: lowwriter 10:41 am EDT 06/20/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - Thom915 01:14 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| Chip Zien probably is one of the best Bakers I've ever seen. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 03:33 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - Thom915 01:14 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| To that point, I may be in the minority, but I find Peters' Witch to be almost as indelible a creation as Gleason's Baker's Wife. I've never seen a Witch who bettered Peters' performance, and that includes Vanessa Williams, Linda Mugleston (who played the last week of that production for Williams), Donna Murphy, and Meryl Streep. I would say that the closest I've come is an actress whose name I've, unfortunately, forgotten who played the role at a small theatre in Philadelphia in a production so early in the show's post-Broadway life, that it was before the original was shown on PBS and before the masses were familiar, beyond the cast album, with those performances. I think this was probably the first Philadelphia area production. I would love to have seen Julia McKenzie's Witch...she sounds genuinely terrifying on the London cast album, but it's hard to judge a performance just on that. I also recall seeing a fairly big budget production in the 90's in a small city that shall remain nameless in which the entire cast was clearly directed to mimic the original cast and which had to have been directed right from the video. That...was a choice. Didn't work at all and I was struck by having paid quite a lot of money (for me at the time) to see a show that was a pale imitation of what I could have stayed home and popped into the VCR for free. |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:39 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - JereNYC 03:33 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| After some checking around, I was able to come up with the name of the actress who impressed me so much in that early, post-Broadway INTO THE WOODS. Her name was Bettina Warren and I recall also seeing her Eva Peron a year or two after her Witch and her Eva was just was compelling. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: dooey 12:18 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - JereNYC 12:16 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| So true. An excellent point. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: robert_j 10:27 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - bobby2 01:00 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| This was my first ever Broadway show, and I am forever grateful for how special it was. Of course, Joanna Gleason left an indelible imprint on the role. I do think that many other actors are very capable of being a wonderful "Baker's Wife." The problem is that none of them can ever be "Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife," which is an obstacle for some of us. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: dooey 07:51 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - bobby2 01:00 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| In my humble opinion, no--no one has even come close. Joanna Gleason was the perfect, definitive Baker's Wife. Have some other actresses brought some other interesting nuances into the character? Yes. But for my money, no one has managed to balance the wit, timing, humanity, and heart of Ms. Gleason's rendering. | |
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| No one has come close. (Has Kaitlin Hopkins ever played the role?) | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 11:09 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 11:06 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - dooey 07:51 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| I've seen INTO THE WOODS soooo many times and I've never seen a Baker's Wife who captured the balance as effortlessly as Ms. Gleason did. The ONLY person who I think would have been capable was Kaitlin Hopkins, who brought a very similar tart charm to her role as the mother in BAT BOY. She's now the head of a very successful up-and-coming musical theater department at Arizona State. - GMB |
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| re: No one has come close. (Has Kaitlin Hopkins ever played the role?) | |
| Posted by: superior_exterior 11:59 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: No one has come close. (Has Kaitlin Hopkins ever played the role?) - GrumpyMorningBoy 11:06 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| I've always heard that it was down to her and Kerry O'Malley for the 2002 Broadway revival. I would have loved to see her do it, she does seem ideal for landing many of the laughs Gleason earned that subsequent actresses have not. Based on a lot of Lapine's directorial choices for that revival (let's not do the thing that worked last time because we did that already) my guess is he agreed with you that Hopkins would have succeeded in a vein similar to Gleason. | |
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| re: No one has come close. (Has Kaitlin Hopkins ever played the role?) | |
| Posted by: theaterbear 12:44 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: No one has come close. (Has Kaitlin Hopkins ever played the role?) - superior_exterior 11:59 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| You've heard right. It was between her and O'Malley (and I believe they were auditioning as pairs and Kevin Chamberlin was Kaitlin's Baker). They deemed Hopkins to be too much like Gleason in the role. Which is apparently what everybody but them wanted. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 01:29 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - bobby2 01:00 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| Mow that we’re talking about the Baker’s Wife....did she have a different story-arc when the show was being developed? SPOILER It seems she’s abruptly killed off. Was there a more dynamic lead-up to her death? Did she ever survive? |
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| re: answer to your spoiler question | |
| Posted by: superior_exterior 09:50 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - lordofspeech 01:29 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| SPOILERS, for both Into the Woods and its earlier drafts Into Broadway previews, the Baker’s Wife did not die in the same scene of Act II as she does now following Moments in the Woods. She rejoins the group. Cinderella, who talks to birds, knows where she’s been and isn’t happy about it. An argument ensues between the Baker, his wife, and Cinderella about what is and isn’t being said when the giant approaches with more destruction to the woods. The Baker’s Wife snaps into defensive mode and throws herself over her baby to shield the child from a falling tree, which saves the baby and kills her. Further spoiler, at this point in development, the Narrator is also not killed in the scene we’ve come to know. He survives the show and reveals himself to be the Baker’s son in a final monologue and having been told the story of how it all happened. |
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| re: answer to your spoiler question | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 12:37 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: answer to your spoiler question - superior_exterior 09:50 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| Oh my Goodness! Thank you!!! I like those events so much better. Even tho I intellectually/aesthetically admire the intentionally arbitrary nature of death (her death) in the current version...still...I LOVE THE OTHER IDEA. That she dies saving the baby. Maybe too melodramatic even for this whimsical show’s second, heavy act. Maybe it felt heavy-handed....but I love it and love knowing it. Plus the son-as-narrator. Of course right, as Yenta might say. THANK YOU!!! |
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| re: answer to your spoiler question | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:41 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: answer to your spoiler question - lordofspeech 12:37 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| It's a valid way to end her story too... but I think it significantly changes the points made in Act 2 currently, which I prefer. "Sometimes people leave us" is not easily replaced by "sometimes people die protecting their child's life", and it's a very different message and theme and event and kind of loss. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:20 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - lordofspeech 01:29 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| I feel like if you're saying her death is abrupt as a criticism, you may be missing the point. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: robert_j 10:22 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - Chazwaza 03:20 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| It is not so much that the death is abrupt but that it falls into the "death by sex" trope. She has illicit sex and immediately dies -- the prince has no consequences. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: winters 12:30 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - robert_j 10:22 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| Princes rarely have consequences 'Fallen' women usually do. |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: bmc 01:08 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - winters 12:30 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| I Always thought it would have worked better if the wife and Prince just kissed; It would make her death seem less like punishment, and wouldn't have scandalized the children in the audience. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:01 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - winters 12:30 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| This is a sad truth in our world. But I also do not think this is what the show is trying to say and I think it's pointless to project that onto the show or read into the timing of it. If it happened right after the "intimacy" with the prince, I could see it taken as a direct consequence in the world of the woods, or if she had decided to leave her husband because of it. But she has a whole lengthy song where she weighs what just happened and comes to appreciate her husband even more than before. That makes it all the more sad and upsetting when she is killed so randomly, and while alone, trying to get back to the group. |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: Delvino 08:46 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - Chazwaza 03:20 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| Ah, thank you. One of the great attributes of "Woods" is that very plot point, illustrating the random, capricious nature of death. "Sometimes people leave you..." The show is a hellluva story, even epic, but also an intimate meditation on loss. Its second act resonates so powerfully because it sees fairy tales as the moral and spiritual guides they were intended to be. The death of this wonderfully complex woman is indeed a reason the ending is so beautiful: survivors ... survive. | |
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| A less charismatic Baker's Wife is an asset, I think | |
| Posted by: Kjisgroovy 02:21 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - Delvino 08:46 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| Joanna Gleason created one of the great characters of musical theater... but I think it throws off the balance of the show. She's not the lead... in a show where there are four leads. I think the show itself shines much brighter when the Baker's Wife is another well-rounded character that's part of the cast. I think Bernadette's presence as The Witch also lead to an imbalance. The Baker and Cinderella's journeys (and to a lesser extent Jack and Red) should be the focus of the show. Obviously... A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T AGREE WITH ME. | |
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| re: A less charismatic Baker's Wife is an asset, I think | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:40 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: A less charismatic Baker's Wife is an asset, I think - Kjisgroovy 02:21 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| I agree to at least some degree. I think the show has four leads — Witch, Baker, Baker's Wife and Cinderella. Ultimately, if there's one central figure, it's the Baker. But it's an unshowy role. Having said that, I have seen productions where the Baker really seemed the central figure, where the weight of his journey carried us through. For various reasons, that didn't quite happen in the original production. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 08:13 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - Chazwaza 03:20 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| Well, maybe it’s partly a criticism. It reminds me of Dot’s abrupt pregnancy in “Sunday in the Park...,” another Lapine show. It’s a Lapine aesthetic, and it’s fine. But I thought I remembered that one of the sages on this board knew something or other about the story-development on “Into the Woods” and that there might have been something else that got cut. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:10 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - lordofspeech 08:13 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| A lot got cut and changed from the first performances at the Old Globe through to opening night on Broadway. I may have written about some of those changes here in the past, but if I did, I don't have the post handy and I don't have the time or patience to try to write a new post on it now. Sorry! But a lot did change, and some valuable and/or fun stuff was gone. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: superior_exterior 02:16 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - AlanScott 02:10 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| I wouldn't mind someone figuring out a way to put the full Second Midnight back into a production. I know the first act is already fairly full...but I think the show is well-loved enough at this point that people would accept adding another few minutes back in. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:24 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - superior_exterior 02:16 pm EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| Oh, I love "Second Midnight." One of the many oddities of Sondheim's two books is the version of "Second Midnight" that's in there, which is missing stuff. | |
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| re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? | |
| Posted by: dooey 08:32 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Did anyone ever come close to Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife? - lordofspeech 08:13 am EDT 06/19/18 | |
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| The day we first meet Dot, she's already pregnant; she just doesn't know it yet. It's hinted at early on: DOT: "Nothing seems to fit me right." and GEORGES: "...Dot getting fat, fat, fat. Waiting to go out, out out." |
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