Threaded Order Chronological Order
| TOO OLD For The Role? | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 11:58 am EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Carol Channing was 73 when she played Dolly Levi in the 1994 revival of Hello, Dolly!. At what point should a performer just say, "Thank You For Your Interest, But I Think I'm Too Old to be believable in that part." ? |
|
| reply to this message |
| re: TOO OLD For The Role? | |
| Posted by: hugoP 03:40 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: TOO OLD For The Role? - RobertC 11:58 am EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Back in 1978 I was a college student writing for the university newspaper. They assigned me a review...of the traveling company of THE SOUND OF MUSIC, starring then 48-year-old Sally Ann Howes as the postulant Maria. Howes was good and game....but still needed all the Von Trapp kids to help her 'jump' onto the bed in MY FAVORITE THINGS. The production was odd all around: all the adult roles were played by people in their 60s and 70s (to make Sally Ann appear younger?) and all the Von Trapp kids were cast much younger than their character's ages. It appeared to be about a world where the parents were gone and only grandparents were around. And I had to write a review. |
|
| reply to this message |
| And Channing was amazing | |
| Posted by: Britannia 03:31 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: TOO OLD For The Role? - RobertC 11:58 am EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| I saw her perform the role in Minneapolis in 1994; I was a senor in high school, and her performance and that show changed my life. She was magnetic, and I haven't seen any other performance come close to that sort of stage presence and magnetism since then except for Sutton Foster in "The Drowsy Chaperone." For me, the question of age depends on the part. I don't know if Dolly's age is specified. I am thinking she could be 40-65, maybe older? On stage, you can fudge age pretty well. If Tom Welling played 18 on "Smallville"at 32, certainly Carol Channing could pull off 60 on stage at 73. I saw Marilu Henner play Annie Oakley, and she sure as heck wasn't 18. Neither was Bernadette Peters, Reba, or any of the celebrities who played the part on Broadway. How old was Sutton Foster when she played Violet? Much too old, and she didn't look the age either; however, it was a show that could withstand the difference. Now, Kristin Chenoweth playing Lilly Garland at 73? No, that wouldn't work. Christine Andreas playing Sarah Brown? Probably not. It's the demands of the role in relation to the story. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: And Channing was amazing | |
| Posted by: NewsGuy 09:28 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: And Channing was amazing - Britannia 03:31 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Nice. I saw her play during my senior year of high school year, too. Just found the ticket stub from the other day. Amazing memories of that night. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: And Channing was amazing | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 07:44 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: And Channing was amazing - Britannia 03:31 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| I also think the point in 94 was that it was an opportunity to see a legendary matching of role and performer--of course, she wouldn't be the same as she was in 64. I wasn't either. But it felt like a privilege to be able to see her. And her monologue about the leaf still moved me to tears. 20 years down the road--when I am getting closer to Channing's age then (I still have another decade or so to go), I feel Dolly's loneliness and resolution. I bet Channing would make a fascinating Madame Armfeldt. I saw Margaret Hamilton, Zoe Caldwell, and Elaine Stritch do it--each brought different colors and qualities. Isn't that what makes live theatre wonderful? |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: And Channing was amazing | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:58 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: And Channing was amazing - BruceinIthaca 07:44 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| I wrote a post in response but ATC is screwing with my Mac today. Some ad probably is doing it. Lost the post. So here's a second try. Back in my relatively early days on this board, I used to sometimes post that I would have loved to see her as Armfeldt, but even back then I knew it wouldn't happen. By the time she played her final performances as Dolly back in February 1997, it was because she really had to stop. And I think it would have been impossible for her to learn Madame Armfeldt at that point. But there are various roles, including Madame Armfeldt, Lady Bracknell and Miss Prism, that I would have liked to see her attempt. And at one time, as I noted here a few days ago when suggesting that Mrs. Lovett might have been a good role for her had she not given up on other roles at that point (and if the vocal transpositions necessary would not have probably made it impossible), she sometimes tamped down greatly on the eccentricities for which she was known even from early in her career. Reviewers noted this when she played Ruth in Wonderful Town, especially on tour. Not all the New York critics who reviewed her when she took over here thought she totally succeeded (although Kerr did), but it seems that she did get there. Not that she necessarily would have needed to tamp down much on her eccentricities for Bracknell, Prism, Armfeldt or Lovett. It does seem that a passable English accent and a Cockney were in her arsenal at one time as she played both Eliza Doolittle in Pygmalion and Epifania in The Millionairess to good reviews. Dolly and Lorelei Lee were both her fortune and perhaps just a bit her misfortune. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Years ago, I saw a clip of Channing perform "One Hundred Easy Ways." | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 09:10 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: And Channing was amazing - AlanScott 08:58 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| For me, it was kinda flat. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Years ago, I saw a clip of Channing perform "One Hundred Easy Ways." | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:58 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: Years ago, I saw a clip of Channing perform "One Hundred Easy Ways." - RobertC 09:10 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| i saw it some years back. My memory is that she seemed to be doing it as Channing, not as Ruth, and that doing it as herself was part of the setup. She did it on the Sullivan Show several years after she had played Ruth. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| " I don't know if Dolly's age is specified." | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 03:36 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: And Channing was amazing - Britannia 03:31 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| I know the character of Dolly Levi's age is specified in The Matchmaker. I am 90% sure that it is stated she is in her forties. I'm not sure what the script of Dolly! says, if anything. Maybe somebody who has a better memory can help us out. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Wilder makes a point of NOT stating her age | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:32 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: " I don't know if Dolly's age is specified." - RobertC 03:36 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| In both The Merchant of Yonkers and The Matchmaker, the first words describing Dolly are "Uncertain age." He wrote the role with Ruth Gordon in mind. It was first played by Jane Cowl when the play was called The Merchant of Yonkers. It's been suggested that Gordon did not create the role because Wilder and Jed Harris were on the outs, and Gordon was still Harris's unmarried partner. By the time Gordon played the role in Edinburgh, she was 57. She was 59 when she got to Broadway in the role. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| RobertC, if you want to think about casting the role based on what Wilder says | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:15 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: Wilder makes a point of NOT stating her age - AlanScott 07:32 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| One thing in Wilder that's not in the musical is that Dolly was Vandergelder's wife's "oldest friend." This suggests that Dolly is probably close in age to Vandergelder. Wilder does give an age for Vandergelder: 60. Jane Cowl, who created the role in The Merchant of Yonkers, turned 55 two days after the first tryout performance in Boston. She had been 35 when she had a huge success playing Juliet on Broadway. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: " I don't know if Dolly's age is specified." | |
| Posted by: IThespis 06:14 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: " I don't know if Dolly's age is specified." - RobertC 03:36 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Dolly Levi, born Gallagher, is old enough to have been married and widowed a while. That's it. Carol Channing was 43 when the show first went up. Little thought was given to Dolly"s age or that the show would become iconic and forever be on people's minds. Ethel Merman was 56 when she closed Dolly's first run. Between 1964 and 1970 just about every theater woman who could move played Dolly, no concern for age. More, since. No matter Dolly's age, the creater of stage Dolly, Ruth Gordon, was 59. Having created such an iconic role, Channing at 40 or 80 would be worth seeing doing it again. In a few years any big-time production with a star 40+, one a name-draw, will work | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: " I don't know if Dolly's age is specified." | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 03:59 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: " I don't know if Dolly's age is specified." - RobertC 03:36 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| At the time the story is set, the late 19th Century, Dolly Levi probably would have realistically been in her early 40's (as was Carol Channing when she first played the role). Dolly would likely have married Ephraim in her teens and enjoyed a 20+ year marriage before widowhood and making the decision to seek out a third act to her life. I have no idea how old Jane Cowl or Ruth Gordon were when they played it, but Shirley Booth certainly appeared older than that. I think we've gradually come to accept the idea of actresses in their 60's and 70's playing the role, first because Channing kept returning to it, second because, as a society, we've come to look at aging in a different way (60's and 70's now is much different than 60's and 70's in prior generations, and third because the parade of actresses who followed Channing in the original production and the original tours were largely older. I wonder if an actress in her 40's would even be accepted in the role today. Would she appear way too young to our contemporary eyes? Or would someone in her 40's not have had the time to have the long, iconic career that we've come to expect from actresses playing this role in major productions. If Midler or Peters had played Dolly in the 1980's...would they have had the impact that they've had in the current production? |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: " I don't know if Dolly's age is specified." | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 07:47 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: " I don't know if Dolly's age is specified." - JereNYC 03:59 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| I also think an actress in her early 40s today might be seen as creating a confusion with Irene Molloy, also a widow. That Irene is a woman who has experienced love and sex and can be a loving guide to both for the innocent Cornelius is poignant and amusing at the same time. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: " I don't know if Dolly's age is specified." | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 07:22 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: " I don't know if Dolly's age is specified." - JereNYC 03:59 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Kristin and Sutton are in their 40s and I think they'd both be great as Dolly. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: TOO OLD For The Role? | |
| Posted by: broadwaybacker 02:41 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: TOO OLD For The Role? - RobertC 11:58 am EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| You either posted this identical post a short time ago on BWW (which you joined yesterday) or someone else assumed your identity, Musical Theater Frenzy. Seems as if the question is really important to you. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| "Seems as if the question is really important to you." | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 03:23 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: TOO OLD For The Role? - broadwaybacker 02:41 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| That may be true. And one could perceive that you making posts on the posting habits of other members (which may be none of your concern) is important to you. Rob |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: "Seems as if the question is really important to you." | |
| Posted by: broadwaybacker 03:41 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: "Seems as if the question is really important to you." - RobertC 03:23 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| What happened was that I had just finished reading through this entire thread and then took a look at the other board, where I lurk but don’t post, and the very first thread had the identical title. It was more amusing than anything else. I didn’t mean any offense. I’m sure there are several here who post on both boards regularly. Some, such as Wayman, are not anonymous. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Thank you for your courteous response. Enjoy your day! n/m | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 03:48 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: "Seems as if the question is really important to you." - broadwaybacker 03:41 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| x | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Mrs meers could play Juliet if the house is big enough | |
| Posted by: dramedy 01:54 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: TOO OLD For The Role? - RobertC 11:58 am EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| One of my favorite lines from throughly modern Millie. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: TOO OLD For The Role? | |
| Posted by: MikeR 01:16 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: TOO OLD For The Role? - RobertC 11:58 am EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| And by most accounts she was spectacular. Bette Midler played (and will play) the role at 72. Bernadette Peters did it at 70. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| "And by most accounts she was spectacular." | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 01:25 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: TOO OLD For The Role? - MikeR 01:16 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| I think they key word here is 'most.' Some people who saw Channing in 1994 said that the night they saw it, she could barely walk across the stage. Rob |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: "And by most accounts she was spectacular." | |
| Posted by: wisebear 01:37 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: "And by most accounts she was spectacular." - RobertC 01:25 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| BS. I saw it. She was spectacular, and still dancing. Unless she was very ill that day, I cannot believe that she could barely walk across the stage. Perhaps your nameless friends have exaggerated? My parents took me to see the mid-60's revival of Annie Get Your Gun. I didn't know the difference, but based on their conversation that was a clear case of too old for the role, and Merman wasn't even yet 60. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| There were times when she not well | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:20 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: "And by most accounts she was spectacular." - wisebear 01:37 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| I saw her twice when she last did it on Broadway. First, shortly after the opening, and then again at the final Saturday matinee before the closing the next day. Both times she was completely on, hugely energized, and tremendously committed. The performance was frozen, but she delivered 110 percent on those unspontaneous choices to the point where you might not have realized how unvarying her performance was, at least when she was well. But a friend with whom I went both times saw her in between, and that night he saw something different. The show started 20-30 minutes late, and when it started, it was immediately clear to him that the reason for the late start was that she was not well. She got through it, and in some places you almost couldn't tell because she certainly gave all that she possibly could. In other places, her energy was unmistakably low, and you could tell. She went up on a line at the Harmonia Gardens. When Jay Garner prompted her, she said, "How did you know I was gonna say that?" Other people have told me of seeing the same thing so I'm guessing that nights when she went up started to become a bit more common on her final tour, after that final Broadway run. People who saw her only on such nights probably thought it was past time for her to give it up, but I think most nights she was still able to play it with great energy. During the final tour, she got sick enough that her understudy had to go on several times while they were in Kalamazoo. It was said to be the first time she'd ever missed performances as Dolly. She recovered, and the tour went on for another three months, but the end of that tour was it for her. Perhaps surprisingly, it was not unknown for her to miss performances earlier in her career. She missed some as Lorelei Lee. But as Dolly she did give an extraordinary number of performances — spread across decades — without missing any, until finally she did. Re the question of frailness, discussed elsewhere: The two times I saw her, she did not seem at all frail. Thin, yes. Frail, no. Still, I worried both times she had to come down that very steep staircase and when she had to go on the runway. But I probably would have worried about anyone doing the things she did. The staircase was scary, perhaps because it had been designed for the St. James. And she ran around on that runway with seemingly total confidence. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: "And by most accounts she was spectacular." | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 02:48 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: "And by most accounts she was spectacular." - wisebear 01:37 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| And I wish I had kept my memories of the vital Channing I had seen years before. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: "And by most accounts she was spectacular." | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 01:50 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: "And by most accounts she was spectacular." - wisebear 01:37 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| There is footage on Youtube in which she looks scarily frail. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: "And by most accounts she was spectacular." | |
| Posted by: MikeR 02:19 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: "And by most accounts she was spectacular." - whereismikeyfl 01:50 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Assuming you're talking about Channing in 94 here, I just watched the title number. She looks thin, but "scarily frail" seems like a tremendous overstatement. She literally runs across the passerelle for the "I went away from the lights of 14th Street" section. May I reach only that level of "scarily frail" in my old age. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: "And by most accounts she was spectacular." | |
| Posted by: wisebear 02:36 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: "And by most accounts she was spectacular." - MikeR 02:19 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Exactly. I re-watched it as well, and it's simply not true that she looks frail. She trots, she skips, and she doesn't miss a beat around the passarelle. She executes the iconic choreography perfectly. Her voice cracks a couple of times, but no more than Bette or Bernadette. She descends the stairs confidently. I saw no sign of frailty. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| "My parents took me to see the mid-60's revival of Annie Get Your Gun." | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 01:40 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: "And by most accounts she was spectacular." - wisebear 01:37 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Yes, that was the production nicknamed Granny Get Your Gun. :-) Rob |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: "My parents took me to see the mid-60's revival of Annie Get Your Gun." | |
| Posted by: tandelor 01:56 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: "My parents took me to see the mid-60's revival of Annie Get Your Gun." - RobertC 01:40 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Saw it 52 years ago at The O'Keeffe Center in Toronto and Merman was still spectacular onstage and in the role. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Parallel observation: "Larger than Life" performers like Channing, Merman even LuPone. Do we still cultivate them? | |
| Posted by: Marlo*Manners 04:29 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: "My parents took me to see the mid-60's revival of Annie Get Your Gun." - tandelor 01:56 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| I saw Carol Channing as Dolly Levi on October 31, 1994. I was expecting something ghoulish but got something else. Yes Carol's voice was wobbly and she was singing at pitches lower than she had used in 1964. She was backphrasing and the conductor had his hands full just keeping Carol and the orchestra together. But Carol was (is??) a total performer in a style that was rare then and probably extinct now. She was a HUGE PERSONALITY with a style of performing that was totally her own and larger than life. She did insane comic business that was daring and surreal but which she made work through sheer daring and conviction. Her age didn't matter because she owned the stage and the part. It was like watching a great old time silent movie or early talkie comic - she had her own stylized persona that she impressed on the role and everything seemed to revolve around her. In "Dolly!" that can work as Dolly is the moving force in the farce. A Carol Channing wouldn't get through drama school today let alone be allowed onstage. When Carol left Dolly in the original run there were a raft of big-scaled personality old school divas of a certain age to replace her: Ginger Rogers, Mary Martin, Ethel Merman, Ann Miller, Phyllis Diller, Pearl Bailey, Yvonne De Carlo, Betty Grable, Martha Raye et al. Today you couldn't find such a deep bench of that kind of bigger than life star at any age. I think the reason so many of the current Dollys are older than 60 (and Mame has had this effect too) is that actresses who are younger than the baby boom generation aren't trained or aren't allowed to be larger than life eccentric personalities. I was looking at the pictures of Paige Davis as Mame at the North Shore Music Festival. She is probably an excellent actress and fine singer/dancer. But her personality needs to be larger than life and quirky for Mame Dennis. I didn't see that. She needs style and glamour too. I didn't see that. Davis seemed human size, naturalistic and normal. When we have our weekly "Let's cast the Broadway revival of "Mame" threads the casting suggestions have tended towards the septuagenarian actress. The late Debbie Reynolds, Cher, Liza Minnelli with all her ailments, Bernadette Peters, etc. Everyone else who is younger is too normal, too nice and too TV small scale. Angela Lansbury was just over 40 when she created Mame on Broadway. Carol Channing was about 43 when she created Dolly Levi. Yet I think the reason that we don't have say Sutton Foster as Mame or Dolly Levi is that she is too normal, too nice and too human sized. The divas are older. The one exception is possibly Kristen Chenoweth who I could see as Dolly. Kristen is turning 50 this year. Marlo Manners (Lady Barrington) Idiosyncratic old school diva who knows one when she sees one |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Parallel observation: "Larger than Life" performers like Channing, Merman even LuPone. Do we still cultivate them? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:01 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: Parallel observation: "Larger than Life" performers like Channing, Merman even LuPone. Do we still cultivate them? - Marlo*Manners 04:29 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| I don't have a good enough ear to always be sure, but I think that friends have told me that Channing did not sing in lower keys in 1995 than she had in 1964. The voice had deteriorated and that perhaps made her sound like she was singing lower in terms of vocal timbre, but the original keys for her (which I think most of the successor Dollys did not use) were so low that going lower was almost not even an option. :) But I may be wrong, and perhaps she did use lower keys on those late tours and the last Broadway run for her. Did you see her on Broadway or on the pre-Broadway tour? 1994 suggests that you saw her on the pre-Broadway tour, but I wonder if you meant to type 1995. If you did see her on Broadway, I'm surprised to hear that the conductor was having trouble with her backphrasing since she was, except on nights when she wasn't well (which started to happen during that last Broadway run), incredibly consistent in the role. She was not the only Dolly to backphrase a lot. Miller never played Dolly on Broadway or on one of the major national tours, but she did play it on a Kenley tour. There was a wide range of performer types among Channing's successors on Broadway and on the tours of the original production, and I think some were probably not especially larger than life, while others decidedly were. Anyway, it's been years, I think, since we've had the talk here about the rarity nowadays of eccentric performers of the type we used to have. We used to have it a lot. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| The day and month are correct, the year is wrong - October 31, 1995 on Broadway at the Lunt-Fontanne. | |
| Posted by: Marlo*Manners 11:13 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Parallel observation: "Larger than Life" performers like Channing, Merman even LuPone. Do we still cultivate them? - AlanScott 10:01 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| BTW: Channing got a very good review in the NY Times and was praised in other publications. The production looked like a scaled down touring production that was playing in a big Broadway barn. Lee Roy Reams stuck very closely to the Gower Champion template. Channing's wig was a strange raspberry pink color. The rest of the cast was aged up a bit - Florence Lacey was a rather matronly but beautifully sung Irene Malloy and Jay Garner was Horace Vandergelder. The rest of the cast I forgot and were likely forgettable. Channing was managing her voice from phrase to phrase and "Before the Parade Passes By" was a triumph of will over reduced means. She put it over though. Physically, I remember incredible physical business that required lots of control over the body. But I didn't get any sense she was frail or unsteady on her feet. The eating scene was a tour de force as she stuffed her face full of potato puffs (actually little pieces of dyed tissue paper that she balled up in her cheeks and didn't swallow) while rattling off Dolly's dialogue with Horace. Anyway, Miss Channing was probably not "ageless" but definitely still giving a star performance. Marlo Manners (Lady Barrington) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: The day and month are correct, the year is wrong - October 31, 1995 on Broadway at the Lunt-Fontanne. | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 12:58 am EDT 06/27/18 | |
| In reply to: The day and month are correct, the year is wrong - October 31, 1995 on Broadway at the Lunt-Fontanne. - Marlo*Manners 11:13 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| I'm sure the production played in much bigger barns on the road before (and after) Broadway. Both times I saw her during that last run, she had tremendous energy. As I noted in another post, she was ill at one point during the run, but it's hard to imagine anyone being more energized than she was the two times I saw her. Some of the roles were cast with people older than in the original, but Garner was only four or five years older than Burns. Lacey was probably back because she was available and had done the role in the 1978 revival. Herman loved her in the role, and I think Channing was probably happy to have someone there who had been in it with her before and with whom she probably got along very well. It may be that the Cornelius, Michael DeVries, who was in his mid-40s, was hired more to match with Lacey than directly because of Channing. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Parallel observation: "Larger than Life" performers like Channing, Merman even LuPone. Do we still cultivate them? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:47 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: Parallel observation: "Larger than Life" performers like Channing, Merman even LuPone. Do we still cultivate them? - Marlo*Manners 04:29 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Part of the issue is that many of the actresses you mention who followed Channing as Dolly became household names as the stars of Hollywood musicals and HELLO, DOLLY! came around at exactly the right time for these ladies, who'd seen their film careers end as screen musicals went out of style. There was a deep bench because those women were specifically cultivated by Hollywood studios and had careers in an art form that largely does not exist anymore (although we do get a film musical every couple of years or so). Even stage musicals were evolving at that time and Martin and Merman were grande dames who were nearing the end of their stage careers by the time they took on DOLLY. If they'd continued to work into the 1970's on Broadway, I'm not sure what roles they'd have been playing. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| " If they'd continued to work into the 1970's on Broadway, I'm not sure what roles they'd have been playing." | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 04:58 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Parallel observation: "Larger than Life" performers like Channing, Merman even LuPone. Do we still cultivate them? - JereNYC 04:47 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Believe it or not, it was proposed that Ethel Merman and Mary Martin play the batty sisters in a musical version of Arsenic and Old Lace. I believe the year was 1973 or so. I found this information in one of Steve Suskin's books. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: " If they'd continued to work into the 1970's on Broadway, I'm not sure what roles they'd have been playing." | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 07:52 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: " If they'd continued to work into the 1970's on Broadway, I'm not sure what roles they'd have been playing." - RobertC 04:58 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Yes, I remember reading that. First of all, Arsenic and Old Lace does not cry out for music (and I played Teddy in high school--probably my favorite role, so I know what is fun in the show). Second, the idea of Merman and Martin in the same book show (not a revue or special concert, such as they did a few times) just feels wrong--shockingly wrong, as Mrs. Stephen Haines might say! That's what makes the Forbidden Broadway parody of them singing "An Old Fashioned Wedding" so droll--while they can inhabit the same worlds (Annie GYG, for example), they can't be there at the same time. It would do something frightful to the time-space continuum. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: " If they'd continued to work into the 1970's on Broadway, I'm not sure what roles they'd have been playing." | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 08:07 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: " If they'd continued to work into the 1970's on Broadway, I'm not sure what roles they'd have been playing." - BruceinIthaca 07:52 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Ye gads, what would Ethel Merman and Carol Channing have been like if they had co-starred in "Legends"? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| "Ye gads, what would Ethel Merman and Carol Channing have been like if they had co-starred in "Legends"?" | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 08:17 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: " If they'd continued to work into the 1970's on Broadway, I'm not sure what roles they'd have been playing." - PlayWiz 08:07 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Well, first of all they would turn it into a musical to take advantage of the stars. The obvious choice to write the score, would of course be Jerry Herman ;-) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Parallel observation: "Larger than Life" performers like Channing, Merman even LuPone. Do we still cultivate them? | |
| Last Edit: Marlo*Manners 05:03 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| Posted by: Marlo*Manners 04:55 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Parallel observation: "Larger than Life" performers like Channing, Merman even LuPone. Do we still cultivate them? - JereNYC 04:47 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Actually Ginger Rogers, Ann Miller, Martha Raye and even Betty Grable had been on Broadway slightly before or during their careers in Hollywood in the thirties and forties. Obviously Merman, Martin and Pearl Bailey were almost exclusively Broadway stars. However, Jere you are right in the main: they were more famous as stars of golden age Hollywood musicals. I would also mention that the 1970's was when I think that old school big glamorous style went out of style. "I AM big, it's the movies (musicals, plays, TV shows) that got SMALL!!" The 70's stars were very different from the glamorous sixties stars. 60's stars like Jane Fonda changed their look and style in the 70's. More naturalistic, more human, less mannered. Lady Gaga has been suggested as a possible Mame (she wouldn't do it - she would want to do something original and her own if she wanted to be on Broadway). Pop stars and stand-up comediennes can be larger than life these days. (Also, I apologize to Kristin Chenoweth for mispelling her first name for the 1000th time) Marlo Manners (Lady B) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Parallel observation: "Larger than Life" performers like Channing, Merman even LuPone. Do we still cultivate them? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 05:14 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 05:04 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Parallel observation: "Larger than Life" performers like Channing, Merman even LuPone. Do we still cultivate them? - Marlo*Manners 04:55 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Why wouldn't Lady Gaga consider a revival? She's doing the latest retread of "A Star Is Born" in the movies. Btw, how come nobody has ever recast that old chestnut and made Vicki Lester into Victor Lester and made Norman Maine into Norma Maine? I think reversing the sexes might be at least an interesting spin on this oft-told story, having an over-the-hill lady star help a newcomer male. Mary Martin and Ethel Merman, had they continued, perhaps might have done the musicals that Lauren Bacall did, among some other things. There might have been a musical version of "Arsenic and Old Lace" written for these two ladies, along with stories of madcap grandmas, and a musical "Harold and Maude", among other kinds of things. I still think if it were musicalized well, Bernadette Peters and Patti LuPone (if she could still crawl after her surgery) would be incredible as Jane and Blanche, respectively, in "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane". I've heard the existing musical isn't so hot, but there are various versions of properties like "Phantom", "La Boheme", etc. so you never know if someone else might try to attempt a new treatment. I could just visualize Bernadette doing an equivalent placed song for "I've Written a Letter to Daddy"! |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Parallel observation: "Larger than Life" performers like Channing, Merman even LuPone. Do we still cultivate them? | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 07:53 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Parallel observation: "Larger than Life" performers like Channing, Merman even LuPone. Do we still cultivate them? - PlayWiz 05:04 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Norma Maine sounds like a role the late Bobbi Adler (RIP Debbie!) SHOULD have played! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: TOO OLD For The Role? | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 12:06 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: TOO OLD For The Role? - RobertC 11:58 am EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| For most performers --- when hell freezes over. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: TOO OLD For The Role? | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 12:04 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: TOO OLD For The Role? - RobertC 11:58 am EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| I'm not sure "believability" was why people were buying tickets to see her in '94! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Thank you for stating that important point | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:30 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: TOO OLD For The Role? - MockingbirdGirl 12:04 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Thank you. When people go to see a famous performer who created a role play it again decades later, they generally go with some understanding of what they're going to see. They're going to see a beloved performer in a role for which she is renowned. They may be seeing her again or they may be seeing her for the first time in what may be their last chance to see the performer. It's not about believability. To some degree, it's about celebration. And, really, is there anything particularly believable about Hello, Dolly! (or The Matchmaker or The Merchant of Yonkers) in the first place? Creating a believable story with realistically portrayed characters was not what Wilder was about here, and it was even less what Herman, Stewart and Champion were about. I have on many occasions here suggested that certain performers were too old for certain roles, and I've been criticized for it sometimes. But even I would never suggest that a performer being believably the age of the character is always important. And, as noted elsewhere, Wilder states that Dolly is of "uncertain age." Hey, I'm happy to say that I saw the extraordinary Nakamura Utaemon VI in the title role of Masakado (The Demon Princess) when he was 65, theoretically long past Mr. Nakamura's sell-by date as a princess. :) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Your post remindes me of the MGM film version of ROMEO AND JULIET (1936) | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 08:38 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: Thank you for stating that important point - AlanScott 08:30 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| Leslie Howard and Norma Shearer played the love struck couple. Both were well into their thirties at the time; the characters were 18 and 16. I've never seen the film; I think I would truly cringe at such casting. Ah, the magic of film! ;-) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Your post remindes me of the MGM film version of ROMEO AND JULIET (1936) | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 09:40 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:39 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: Your post remindes me of the MGM film version of ROMEO AND JULIET (1936) - RobertC 08:38 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| According to the documentary on him that TCM has shown recently, Howard himself thought it was a bit ridiculous. Still, the movie is better than you might think, as long as you know what to expect. And Edna May Oliver and Andy Devine are great. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| THE DIVA STYLE HAS MOVED FROM THE STAGE TO THE CONCERT | |
| Posted by: Jax 06:03 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: TOO OLD For The Role? - MockingbirdGirl 12:04 pm EDT 06/26/18 | |
|
|
|
| The reason why these threads are filled with folks who may soon need walkers is that the Broadway Diva style is dead. There are no more Mermans, Martins, etc. Sutton Foster and the rest are talented folks, not megawatt diva stars. ONLY Kristin Chenoweth might qualify as one. Even Idina Menzel has a style of acting and delivery that comes out of a later, more naturalistic kind of acting. Where can you find Divas? On the concert stage. Lady Gage, Beyonce, Madonna, Rhianna, Brittany Spears and many others have fashioned over the top personas that people pay millions to see. But they aren't actresses and they don't do theatre (no money in it). If you want a Diva, go to a concert. But don't go expecting to hear "Mame." "Mame" is dead. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
Time to render: 0.170994 seconds.