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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Posted by: writerkev 10:03 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - Huss417 08:53 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| Okay, sorry. Guess there's only one possible side to the story. | |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 10:09 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - writerkev 10:03 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| No, I suspect suicide is almost always multi-factorial. This may have been the straw that broke his back, but we may never know. It does sound as if he was treated poorly--the insistence on repeated performances at the rehearsal, when any decent director knows that such an exercise has diminishing returns at the very least (say, by take three or four) shows callousness and points to a serious judgment problem on the part of Bobbie and the MD. Sufficient for a lawsuit--my guess is not. Sufficient to make actors, producers, and other artists think twice (or six times) about working with them, definitely. | |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 10:34 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - BruceinIthaca 10:09 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| That's a great point. Regardless of whether or not this rehearsal lead to a suicide, professionals should not be treating other professionals in this manner (assuming that the information in the Towleroad piece was accurate). People in the arts need a dose of reality when it comes to how people in power treat other people. We saw this with the #metoo movement, but those strong feelings need to trickle down to bad behavior that does not constitute sexual harassment or rape. So often, you hear that so-and-so is an asshole or a bitch, but the talent makes up for it. No. That has to stop. There are a lot of talented people out there, most of whom are probably wonderful people who appreciate the hard working people around them and who are leaders who inspire those under them to be their best and do their best work. The arts can stand to lose a few talented assholes/bitches. We, as a society, have to stop making excuses for talented people who abuse people under them, just because they can. We need to move more toward "What a talent!...too bad he/she treats people like dirt under their shoe and got drummed out of the business. Oh, well." Again, assuming that the information presented was accurate, there was no excuse for how this actor was treated. |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 10:43 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - JereNYC 10:34 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| What we havent heard is what led up to this rehearsal - did the SM and Ms Stifelman (whom I have worked with) see red flags in his work during understudy rehearsals, and bring Mr Bobbie in? We till have no actual details on the 'run of the play'; contract terms that the actor had, since these no longer exist. After 22 years covering a role in a show, it may just have been time for a replacement. One is required to have cause for firing an actor. I dont believe this would have come out of the blue - though perhaps it did. But certainly the actor could tell from the rehearsal that the MD and Music Director had doubts about his ability to stay with the show. Actors who stay in shows for 20-30 years have in many ways walked away from their active careers - the long term show gig is their 'day job'. Its perhaps a mistake to keep people with shows more than 2-3 years - i've always though it was - because one can become very comfortable - no new challenges, other than staying alert during the show. And if you are a cover who has never been offered the role in 22 years (or did he perhaps sub during vacations?), you're not even on stage with any regularity. I believe the last time this gentleman appeared on stage was in February - 5 months ago. I think there is a lot more to be said as this incident is investigated. |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 11:09 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:08 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - NewtonUK 10:43 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| For more information, you should read the "Justice for Jeffrey" blog. Obviously, this is an activist website, and so it must be approached the same way we would approach Fox News, but the basic reporting strikes me as accurate. For the record, he was offered the role on numerous occasions, but didn't want to take a pay cut. He was also offered the chance to create a role in "The Visit", but he didn't want to break his contract. I don't think it's fair to say he walked away from his "active" career (there's a certain judgment on your end about what makes a career active versus passive), but I would agree that he prioritized making money (hallelujah) over taking on new roles (and being unemployed when he wasn't being "active"). The most interesting quote in all of this, for me, is Walter Bobbie's complaint that Loeffelholz is making more money off the production than Bobbie is... presumably Bobbie meant from the Broadway production, rather than the worldwide phenomenon (right?), but still, there's a bitterness and a rancor there that stings. |
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| Link | Justice for Jeff blog - scroll down and read up if you want to see things in order |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:29 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - Singapore/Fling 11:08 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| I am going to let the investigation progress before making any guesses, so I'm only going to note two things: 1. People enter into contracts they wish they hadn't all the time. And when they want to get out of them, they pay money whether (as appears to be the case here) contractually or extra-contractually. Clearly Jeff's annuity had a value a lot greater than $30,000, but that was (apparently) the deal. 2. Bobbie's comment about making less than Jeff is (if accurate) a bald faced lie. |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Posted by: wisebear 11:26 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - Singapore/Fling 11:08 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| That quote from Bobbie is mystifying. Surely his weekly royalty is more than a company members salary. One wonders if perhaps Walter needs a physical evaluation. Something isn’t right. Medication can be a wonderful thing. |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Posted by: wisebear 10:57 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - NewtonUK 10:43 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| I’d suggest you educate yourself on Jeff’s rich and varied career. To say he had “walked away” from a career is not supported by facts. And even if Jeff did need replacing after all those years, there’s a simple solution - follow the rules and pay the damn $30,000, which is nothing for a mega-hit. B’Way is a teensy tiny community. There hasn’t been a whisper that Jeff was no longer up to the job. |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 10:53 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - NewtonUK 10:43 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| I've read within the last few days that he was offered the role itself on at least two occasions, but it would have replaced his original contract, so he turned it down. He could have been dismissed (or at least not have his contract renewed) after the specified dates of the new contract. | |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Posted by: BwayBaby 11:53 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - PlayWiz 10:53 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| Bullying is bullying, no matter what kind of job you work at. I feel very sorry for anyone who after 22 years at the same job is made to feel he will no longer have one. Also, discussion of salary in front of others is usually grounds for being fired or at least written up in most work places. I thought understudies had weekly rehearsals. Perhaps standbys don't. Regardless, if Mr. Bobbie and Ms. Stifelman (who according to IBDB has been with the show since 2003) were displeased with Jeff's work, there are proper channels to go thru. I sincerely hope Equity takes this seriously. My condolences to Jeff's family and friends. |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 12:22 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:14 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - BwayBaby 11:53 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| Oh, I agree that this sounds like intimidation and bullying. Also, why have someone sing a difficult song over and over again without any specific kinds of adjustments (until the 4th or so time)? One just tires out the voice, especially in such a high-tessitura song. This kind of on-the-job nastiness should have been immediately brought to the union's attention. At least someone could have shown him that he had some kind of recourse to being treated so badly, as reported. | |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Posted by: summertheater 12:04 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - BwayBaby 11:53 am EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| People have protested and shut down shows before over other matters (the most recent a Broadway show since some people felt the replacement should not have been allowed to have the job due to his race). I'm puzzled why we haven't seen protestors outside the theater who are demanding this show get shut down over this alleged abuse. | |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 12:30 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:23 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - summertheater 12:04 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| You've gotten some of your facts wrong. There were zero protests outside the theater for the Broadway show you refer to in your parentheses. There were zero people calling for that show to get shut down over their hiring practices. The original article that questioned that show's hiring practices was less pointed and critical of the show and its creatives than the Justice for Jeff blog has been in regards to "Chicago" and its creatives. I share your question about why we as a community have been less quick to engage ourselves in Loeffelholz's struggle, but I think part of is it that this story has appeared out of the blue and does not involve an actor who A) is well-known to the community and B) had already had a public struggle with the producers. It also is possible that there is less sympathy for a middle-aged white guy with a well-paying job, but I believe (or hope) that most people who are engaged in the movement to explore how color effects our choices have empathy for all people, including white folks. |
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| Which Broadway show? Thank you. nm | |
| Posted by: thtrgoer 11:31 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - Singapore/Fling 12:23 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| re: Which Broadway show? Thank you. nm | |
| Posted by: writerkev 09:46 am EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: Which Broadway show? Thank you. nm - thtrgoer 11:31 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| They're referring to the casting brouhaha at "...Great Comet of 1812" | |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Posted by: summertheater 12:41 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - Singapore/Fling 12:23 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| Hmmm, I wonder why we haven't heard anything from the usual NYC elected officials who are quick to protest other issues. Haven't seen this covered in the NY Daily News. But I've seen it in the NY Post. Issues always appear out of the blue and same-day protests are quickly put together for other issues, but strangely not this one. I believe your last sentence gets to the crux of the matter. And it's very very sad. | |
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| Provide Evidence For Your Claims | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:52 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - summertheater 12:41 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| Name one factual issue that arose out of the blue and spurred a same-day protest from elected officials and activists. Name one, and provide actual evidence that you aren't just making it up or getting your facts grossly wrong. | |
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| re: Provide Evidence For Your Claims | |
| Posted by: summertheater 01:14 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: Provide Evidence For Your Claims - Singapore/Fling 12:52 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| https://www.amny.com/news/pablo-villavicencio-ice-brooklyn-1.19011570 | |
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| re: You Did Not Provide Evidence For Your Claims | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 01:41 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:38 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Provide Evidence For Your Claims - summertheater 01:14 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| The example you cited is not comparable. There is a long history of protest against the deportation of undocumented immigrants and protests against ICE. The protest that arose around this specific deportation happened within a week of the arrest, but the knowledge that ICE was deporting undocumented immigrants did not appear out of the blue. Do you have another example? Can you see the difference between these situations? My question is why isn't the Times running with this? They essentially created the controversy that you referred to last summer, but they're staying mum on this one. |
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| Nope | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 01:27 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Provide Evidence For Your Claims - summertheater 01:14 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| "Seven people were taken into custody in Bay Ridge Wednesday [June 6] during a protest and march against the detention of a deliveryman by federal immigration officers at Fort Hamilton last week. Pablo Villavicencio.... was detained while delivering pizza to military personnel on [Friday] June 1." #ReadingIsFundamental |
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| re: Nope | |
| Posted by: summertheater 02:06 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: Nope - MockingbirdGirl 01:27 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| The protests happened the same day that the issue became news & people became aware of the issue, so I stand by my comments. The afternoon news conference in front of the federal army base was put together within a couple hours of the story becoming news. | |
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| Wrong again, Ace | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 02:24 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Nope - summertheater 02:06 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| Seriously, is Google not in your bag of tricks? First reported by Telemundo on June 1: | |
| Link | Delivering a pizza put him on the verge of deportation |
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| re: Wrong again, Ace | |
| Posted by: summertheater 02:44 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: Wrong again, Ace - MockingbirdGirl 02:24 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| It will be interesting to see if The Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 is invoked regarding the alleged abuse. Also, I do not recall hearing any corroboration of this alleged abuse. Were others there? Are there people who may have witnessed anything (assuming this happened) and are afraid to speak out, for fear of losing their jobs? If this is the case, I hope people do the right thing and speak out. I couldn't sleep at night had I witnessed something and remained silent. | |
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| re: Wrong again, Ace | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 04:44 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Wrong again, Ace - summertheater 02:44 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| Your ability to pivot to a new topic without acknowledging that you have been called out on your false facts is impressive. In terms of corroboration, read Justice for Jeffrey. They don't have any quotes about this specific event, but they are building a record of other instances of professional abuse. Perhaps if you put your efforts into amplifying the voices of other people, you might help inspire the protests that it seems you desire (though would no doubt complain about if they were to happen). |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 12:16 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - summertheater 12:04 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| I'm puzzled why we haven't seen protestors outside the theater who are demanding this show get shut down over this alleged abuse. I imagine because of the word "alleged." I certainly would not want to close down a show and put people out of work absent all the facts. |
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| re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... | |
| Posted by: wisebear 12:14 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
| In reply to: re: More details on the Jeff Loeffelholz story... - summertheater 12:04 pm EDT 07/11/18 | |
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| Maybe because rational people wait for facts and conclusions? | |
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