Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: Ann 12:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I'm trying to imagine. | |
| Link | At Hollywood Reporter |
| reply to this message | |
| re: Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' | |
| Posted by: Dale 10:42 am EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - Ann 12:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Great! Shirtless Jets and Sharks! | |
| reply to this message |
| almost 2 months of previews | |
| Posted by: dramedy 04:43 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - Ann 12:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| from Dec 10-Feb 6. I suppose they can let the december date slip a bit. Little surprised they aren't doing an out of town tryout first, but revivals have rather a short shelf life (except for Chicago, most successful revivals only last two or three years) and with $1M plus for out of town tryout, i guess they are opting for longer previews on broadway to work on the show. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: almost 2 months of previews | |
| Posted by: portenopete 04:54 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: almost 2 months of previews - dramedy 04:43 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Is it being coproduced with Toneelgroop in Holland? If so, they may benefit from a hefty Dutch government subsidy if the production travels to his home base in....is it Amsterdam they are located? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: almost 2 months of previews | |
| Posted by: dramedy 06:32 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: almost 2 months of previews - portenopete 04:54 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| i was wondering if there would be a dutch production before or at least testing some of the dancing routines there first. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 02:46 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - Ann 12:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Mega dittos. Either a major disaster or totally illuminating. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: bmc 04:10 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - Snowysdad 02:46 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| While they're at it, why not remove Bernstein's music and change most of Sondheim's lyrics (except for the classic "I Feel Pretty). | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Perhaps Tony & Maria will live and start a fmaily | |
| Posted by: EasyToRemember 08:58 am EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - bmc 04:10 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Van Hove, infamous for changing the ending of RENT in the first non-replica Dutch-language production --- killing Mimi a la Boheme. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| He wouldn't be the first to try that... | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 11:26 am EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: Perhaps Tony & Maria will live and start a fmaily - EasyToRemember 08:58 am EDT 07/13/18 | |
|
|
|
| Robert Nathan's 1966 JULIET IN MANTUA has Mr. and Mrs. Montegue ten years later, battling domestic boredom. Why do I know this turkey? Because my high school staged it in 1976 and I played the Nurse. Laura |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: He wouldn't be the first to try that... | |
| Posted by: singleticket 07:42 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: He wouldn't be the first to try that... - showtunetrivia 11:26 am EDT 07/13/18 | |
|
|
|
| What a great disastrously uncommercial premise. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Timing is bizarre, with the Spielberg movie scheduled to be released in 2020. | |
| Posted by: royscho 02:15 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - Ann 12:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I'm not saying that the movie and the stage production will necessarily cannibalize each other - in some cases, like Mamma Mia and Chicago, they can actually expand each other's potential - but you'd expect more space between their scheduling. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Timing is bizarre, with the Spielberg movie scheduled to be released in 2020. | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:49 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: Timing is bizarre, with the Spielberg movie scheduled to be released in 2020. - royscho 02:15 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I think either they don't care or they welcome the attention the movie will bring. I don't think they are banking on a long running hit, but rather a very hot ticket for people who wanna see one of the most famous and beloved shows done in a way no one has ever seen... and either see what people are raving about or hating on. I think the chance to see it another way, and live, is a strength for them selling tickets.. I don't think WSS being over-exposed due to the movie also coming out will hurt this particular production. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Timing is bizarre, with the Spielberg movie scheduled to be released in 2020. | |
| Posted by: royscho 05:16 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Timing is bizarre, with the Spielberg movie scheduled to be released in 2020. - Chazwaza 02:49 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I think you need at least 15M to put a musical revival in the size of WSS on Broadway today, at the very, very least. (Even if there's absolutely no set - which is quite possible, given the director.) And as we've seen in the last revivals of Gypsy and Fiddler on the Roof how hard it is to recoup when you revive something that was on Broadway not that long ago. (And look at Hello Dolly... they haven't had a recoupment announcement yet, despite a very strong run.) I think you'll need over a year - and likely over 2 years if you don't sell out with premiums every night - in order to recoup. And I am questioning the demand for this show over 1-2 years given the fact a major movie will be released a few months after the opening and the previous revival closed only 8 years ago. I also don't think that Ivo Van Hove is a particularly commercial director. And he has no track record with musicals. I wish them well, of course. The last revival took 30 weeks to recoup its 14M investment. Maybe they can replicate that success again. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Timing is bizarre, with the Spielberg movie scheduled to be released in 2020. | |
| Posted by: pagates 02:17 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Timing is bizarre, with the Spielberg movie scheduled to be released in 2020. - royscho 05:16 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I would be surprised if I'm not in a minority on this, but I welcome a new production of WSS. The last one felt like it was more abut the parts than the sum to me. I'm interested in seeing a production that brings a different vision; and I'd say this type of production is more warranted just bc it follows so closely on the heels of the Laurents revival. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Timing is bizarre, with the Spielberg movie scheduled to be released in 2020. | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 07:52 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Timing is bizarre, with the Spielberg movie scheduled to be released in 2020. - royscho 05:16 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I doubt very much that the set for this production will be anything like WSS normally or any other major broadway musical. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Timing of the announcement is also sadly ironic, with the very recent death of Alan Johnson... | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:38 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: Timing is bizarre, with the Spielberg movie scheduled to be released in 2020. - royscho 02:15 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Here's the last part of the New York Times obit: Mr. Johnson’s association with “West Side Story” lasted even longer than his connection to Mr. Brooks. In addition to the roles he played, he became the show’s dance captain, requiring him to learn everyone’s steps and make sure Jerome Robbins’s choreography was followed. That role broadened when Mr. Robbins recommended Mr. Johnson to restage the show with the original choreography for revivals around the country. “My responsibility is to do exactly what Jerry Robbins put on the stage of the Winter Garden back in 1957,” he told The Los Angeles Times in 1997, when he had restaged about 25 “West Side” productions. “People ask me, ‘Are you tempted to jazz it up?’ and I answer, ‘No.’ ” He added: “Because it was so good, it’s lasted. It’s become a classic. If it’s not broken, don’t fix it.” |
|
| Link | Alan Johnson obit |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: winters 01:51 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - Ann 12:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Do we really think that Mr. Laurents would be excited by a re-imagination of WSS? No matter what direction the production goes in, I suspect that Mr. Laurents would have had some very decided opinions.....and would have made them known quite directly. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 05:57 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: Arthur Laurents - winters 01:51 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Well there is this direct quote from the article. Of course he would have opinions. But if Saint is to be believed, then this concept fits Laurents criteria as a reason to revive this show. David Saint, literary executor of the Arthur Laurents Estate, said in a statement: "Arthur always believed the only reason to revive West Side Story on Broadway was to bring a new perspective to the material. Ivo van Hove is sure to do just that." |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:02 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Arthur Laurents - EvFoDr 05:57 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| A ridiculous statement in the first place... quite often a good reason to revive something is because it is a classic and there are new audiences that haven't had the privilege or pleasure of seeing a first classic production, and actors who want to take on the roles. As the writer he should be aware of how relevant the show was and has continued to be and likely will always be. And also to hear that music live. A good enough reason is there are actors who can sell tickets who want to do it. Or a director with a vision for it. Or the time is right mount it, for society or for ticket sales... whatever! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:51 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Arthur Laurents - Chazwaza 09:02 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Trying to channel Arthur Laurents is a thankless task. The man never liked anything that wasn't his own thought. On that theory, there would never be another major production. That said, I suspect Saint meant a first class production; there are plenty of places that can produce a museum quality revival at the appropriate intervals. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 05:12 am EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Arthur Laurents - ryhog 10:51 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I disagree with it even narrowed to a first class production, which is actually what I was talking about with the examples of good reasons to do it. The only reason there's been for any of the first-class revivals of Shakespeare plays are: a bankable or award-likely actors wants to do it, a director has an exciting vision, it was especially relevant at that moment and could hit a nerve in the market... or it's just a great play that needs to be seen again and again, and right now there's a team who wants to do it. I don't see why a musical needs any better justification. And even if it is a recreation of the original staging... which in several cases for several musicals I think doing that would have been much better than the new staging that was created, and for some shows was almost as intrinsic to the original show as the writing... as long as the people doing it bring passion and focus and all that to it, I think a re-creation can work very well. I mean it's not like people say "why should the actors say these same lines... they were great back then, but we need new ones that come from actors today" do they? No they do the play or sing the song usually as written (obviously there are a hundred examples to the contrary but generally speaking). I'm not sure why it's so crazy for choreography to be included in that in some cases. I for one am very glad I've been able to see recreations (or approximations with lots of quoting) of the original choreography for West Side Story, Fiddler, King & I, Follies, A Chorus Line, Pippin, Sweet Charity, Chicago and more. I have also seen other productions with new staging and visions - I'm glad I've seen both. Not every was in NYC or on earth when these originals happened, and some of us are glad to see these genius choreographers and/or directors work brought to life again in the piece that it helped make a classic. Either way I'm very excited for this Ivo revival. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:47 am EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Arthur Laurents - Chazwaza 05:12 am EDT 07/13/18 | |
|
|
|
| I understand your position even though I see it differently. Re plays vs musicals, the timeline is different: you can recoup in a limited run play with a big star; you can't in a musical. (I would also question if we are ever getting Shakespeare presented in a way that recreates the original, unless it is the Rylance Globe recreations, and even then.) I think the desire to see the original choreography etc is completely reasonable, but my question is where I think it makes sense to do it. To me (and I am not trying to convince you to agree) it is in the non-profit sphere. I'd also note that when we see original ballets (as well as opera) recreated it is ALWAYS in a non-profit. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 06:06 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:05 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Arthur Laurents - ryhog 09:47 am EDT 07/13/18 | |
|
|
|
| I just don't want to let the two points get unclearly mixed up... my Shakespeare analogy was regarding Laurents' statement about "why" do WSS again unless there's a new perspective to bring to it. That statement I fully disagree with, and was saying we don't do Shakespeare (or xyz great play or classic) only when there's a new perspective, we often do them because they are good enough to be seen again, or someone wants to star, or any number of reasons. It wasn't to do with recreating an original of a play, or shakespeare even specifically. Recreating original direction and/or choreography was as separate (though I guess similar) point. And to you point, I would actually argue that non-profit is the main place to see NEW choreography to an old piece. A commercial first-class revival often won't want to take the chance screwing up a beloved classic with already genius staging that was intrinsic to the entire piece (writing and production) and what made it work so well... and will likely want to bring in people who want to see the show they love without too too much veering creatively from what the show was/is. I love when commercial producers take a chance on newer talent and original visions... I don't just want to see slavish recreations. But I also know that most of the choreographers working today aren't even in the same league with legends like Robbins, Fosse, Bennett, Tune etc, and often do much worse jobs serving the show creatively with their "original" work then would have been if they'd used the original. It's always impossible to know how it'll turn out - a recreation could be lifeless or boring if we've seen that version several times... but new staging could be bad and miss the mark and screw up the show in any number of ways. Anyway, now is time for a new vision of WSS and I'm excited to see it. While I want all generations, and anyone new to WSS to see the unbelievable Robbins choreography, I'm also dying to see another first-rate choreographer tackle it because the music is just so sensational and varied. I'm so grateful we have Robbins work so perfectly and popularly captured on film... which does make doing a Robbins-free revival more attractive and easy to swallow. That all being said... I know Gower Champion was a legend too, but I will say I've seen Hello Dolly revival twice now and (plus countless videos of past productions) and I've never been all that impressed with his choreography on HD. I find Michael Kidd's (and maybe some Gene Kelly?) choreography in the movie immeasurably more interesting, fun, and dynamic. So on one hand I'm glad to see a revival of a classic old show that tries to retain much of the original... on the other hand I'm curious what a different choreographer would have done. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:12 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Arthur Laurents - Chazwaza 06:05 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
|
|
|
| Understood and apologies if I contributed to the mixup. A few quick thoughts: 1. I think we pay too much attention to the opinions of people just because they had a creative hand in something. To me, it's like listening to parents tell you about their grown children. 2. I am not inclined to make qualitative judgments comparing the past and the present (or future). I think there are a lot of exciting choreographers around nowadays. 3. While we may disagree about where is the best place to do what, right now we can anticipate something fresh in a commercial production and look forward to that. 4. I think I have mentioned this before here, but I was quite taken with what Jon Rua (of Hamilton and In the Heights, and now of Squarepants), a fine dancer and choreographer (see #2) who did a tribute to WSS by re-inventing Dance at the Gym with his choreography, set to Robin Thicke's Blurred Lines. (linked below) Like with Shakespeare, great things prompt great re-inventions. (E.g., R&J to WSS to this.) To me this is the sort of thing that keeps things exciting. |
|
| Link | Rua/Thicke/Dance at the Gym |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:08 am EDT 07/14/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Arthur Laurents - ryhog 07:12 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
|
|
|
| I appreciate all you're saying and agree with much of it. But I don't think that video is relevant to the discussion of new choreography to WSS... that is a music video of Blurred Lines, with the premise for the video being inspired by the dance at the gym in WSS. If anything this would support the argument that if we want new fresh stuff people today should just make new stuff and not revive the things from the past, aside from nodding to or honoring them. And the choreography in the video is really good, but this isn't an example of the fresh stuff we could have in a Robbins-less WSS because no one danced like that in 1956. So unless they want to do the whole show with modern dance in a period piece, this wouldn't really fit. And I wouldn't be opposed to that... not unlike the concept behind Spring Awakening actually. But that's a specific take on how to do the show now... it's not necessarily doing the show as written. Not to mention that the music isn't at all fitting for this kind of choreography. I know you weren't suggesting this is what we see done for the actual WSS but I'm not entirely sure what the point was because you can turn on So You Think You Can Dance and those kinds of shows and see exciting modern choreography to modern songs, that doesn't mean we're gonna see that applied to a musical taking place in the 50s. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:54 am EDT 07/14/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Arthur Laurents - Chazwaza 06:08 am EDT 07/14/18 | |
|
|
|
| well it seems I continue to do a great job of mixing things up. No, I am not at all suggesting that this could slide into a production of WSS but more along the lines of how it could be the foundation of a work inspired by it, in much the way that WSS was inspired by R&J. I do think it might be interesting to see this style of choreography set to LB's music, but I haven't really thought out how that would read broadly. I do believe there is something to be said for telling the WSS story taking place in NYC in the 50s in a way that relates to New York 65+ years later, and maybe 65+ blocks farther north. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: royscho 02:17 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: Arthur Laurents - winters 01:51 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| So what are you saying? That because he's dead, no one should mount the show ever again? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: winters 03:34 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Arthur Laurents - royscho 02:17 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Not sure where your reaction comes from as it doesn't come from the words that I've written. Mr. Laurents was noted for being opinionated......particularly when things were not done exactly as he wished.... |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: royscho 04:59 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Arthur Laurents - winters 03:34 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| OK. Fine. So what is the point of your post? What did you mean by saying "Do we really think that Mr. Laurents would be excited by a re-imagination of WSS?" If you wrote something along the lines of "I don't think Mr. Laurents would have liked a new interpretation" I would not have responded (even though I disagree - I think he wanted new approaches but he was very critical about most people's work.) But your wording make it sound like a rebuke about the fact that there's a new interpretation and that's (probably) against Laurents' wishes or approval. And then you ask us if *we* really think he would be excited about it, as if *we* have something to do with the decision. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 05:17 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Arthur Laurents - royscho 04:59 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I think it's fair to say indications are (were) that Laurents would not like any new interpretation of WEST SIDE STORY that wasn't supervised by him. The last Broadway revival (or revisal), which he directed, was in many ways a new interpretation from a directorial standpoint, even in not in terms of the actual text (except for the Spanish lyrics, which eventually were largely eliminated) or the choreography and the orchestrations. P.S. My feeling is that, regardless of how much I personally like or dislike a radical new interpretation of a classic play or musical, I always find radical new interpretations easier to take if the show has been frequently revived in more or less traditional stagings. SWEENEY TODD is an example that leaps immediately to mind, and also OKLAHOMA! |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Arthur Laurents | |
| Posted by: makeupman 02:05 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: Arthur Laurents - winters 01:51 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Arthur Laurents? He's turning over in his urn. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Last Edit: drummergirl 01:26 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| Posted by: drummergirl 01:25 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - Ann 12:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| THIS I definitely want to see. It'll be interesting to see if he takes the very "full" approach or narrows it down to a one-act. Either way, it'll be an interesting POV. But: December 2019? I can't wait that long! |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 01:57 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 01:54 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - drummergirl 01:25 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Sounds exciting. And van Hove for me these days is a mixed bag. But Anne Teresa De Keersmaeker, I'm not sure if I can see it. I just saw one of her longer pieces and I thought it was witty, fun and genuinely entertaining but rather formal and cerebral. This is definitely something I'd see, though. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: lowwriter 02:01 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - singleticket 01:54 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| And if this is a success van Hove can tackle Flower Drum Song next! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: kdogg36 03:06 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - lowwriter 02:01 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I am very sympathetic to where you're coming from. A classic by white people, directed by a white person, but about people of color, might seem unnecessary in 2018. That being said, I fully believe that there's still room for it if it's done well, and I am looking forward to this production. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:43 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - kdogg36 03:06 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| It is not *about* people of color. Let's be clear about that. And why wouldn't there be "room" for this classic which is one of the best and most powerful musicals ever written, with perhaps the best music ever written for a musical, and depicting a conflict between two groups of people that will likely be relevant always? |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: student_rush 01:11 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - Ann 12:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I can't wait. "West Side" is a phenomenal show, but we've all seen variations on the same iteration for years. Regional theatres, summer stock houses, even the most recent Broadway revival - all echoes of a similar aesthetic, a similar palate, a similar everything. Let's shake this show loose. I'm hit or miss with van Hove but I'll be first in line for this. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| That's so true... | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 01:25 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - student_rush 01:11 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| ... even down to the color scheme. Is there any other major musical which has been tinkered with so little in major productions? (A CHORUS LINE, perhaps? I can't think of many others.) As for the choreography, I think most people keep restaging the Robbins because, let's be honest, it's basically the best musical choreography of all time. - GMB |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: That's so true... | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:42 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: That's so true... - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:25 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| The best example is probably FIDDLER ON THE ROOF, where I believe that productions are contractually required to reproduce Jerome Robbins' staging. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: That's so true... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 07:53 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: That's so true... - JereNYC 04:42 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| As are productions of WSS, no? I think the same is true of the dance in King & I, isn't it? |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: That's so true... | |
| Posted by: chrismpls 07:57 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: That's so true... - Chazwaza 07:53 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Can't be true of "West Side Story." It's on the thrust stage at the Guthrie in Minneapolis right now, with new (electrifying choreographer) by Maija Garcia. | |
| Link | No Robbins for the Guthrie |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: That's so true... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:06 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: That's so true... - chrismpls 07:57 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Maybe they've loosened up? I mean I can't comprehend why, if there's any show Robbins could have that authorial control over, it wouldn't be WSS. Of all the shows he was a part of, not only was this is idea, but it's the show his staging and choreography specifically are so deeply and intrinsically tied into the drama of. I'm not sure if any choreography should be legally tied to a musical for all time ... but if there's any I get it for it is West Side Story and A Chorus Line. Fiddler doesn't even come close to that list. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: That's so true... | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:44 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: That's so true... - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:25 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Oh, people tinker with it in amateur productions... I saw a terrible one where it was trying to re-set it in the 90s and the dance at the gym was a rave. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 12:51 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - Ann 12:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Two great talents - it will be great to see them tackle this show and bring us a production that is not a 'replica' of the original. Robbins work is great - but let's move on! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: lowwriter 01:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - NewtonUK 12:51 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Because van Hove is just the right white man to illuminate Latino culture in a musical. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:43 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - lowwriter 01:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| On one hand I agree with your point - I said the same thing when Michael Arden was announced to direct OOTI. But on the other hand I just wanna say I'm tired of this argument when it comes to art. I mean were Bernstein, Sondheim, Laurents and Robbins the "right white men" to write the very show we're talking about? And let's not forget that the show isn't *about* Latino culture... it's about a situation, a conflict, a love story... and a time. And it's about both a group of latino people AND a group of white people. Yes, it would be more than about time for a latinx person to direct a major revival of this show, since white people have done it every time. But Ivo is not your ordinary run of the mill white director... it's not like Rob Ashford got the job, or Michael Grandage, or even Joe Mantello. I am VERY excited to see what Ivo and his choreographer do with this. Why don't we start with getting the people who must actually represent the Puerto Rican people, the CAST playing them, to be ALL hispanic people... and I know they did this for the last revival and made a big deal about but, but... I hate to say this, I think as lovely as Josefina Scaglione's voice was, hiring a pale light skinned Argentinian actress to play Maria in the revival seems like a bit of a racial cop-out. Puerto Ricans are generally not that light skinned, and to make a whole show of casting actual hispanic people for that revival and then finding the lightest one they could seemed besides the point since all the pictures and videos promoting the show would still show the world another white-looking Maria. I don't know who is whiter looking between them, Josephina or Matt Cavenaugh. I know in reality that isn't relevant racially since she is not "white", but for the image of the show, and for anyone who doesn't know she is from Argentina, she appears white, like most other Marias in the history of the show. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| most Argentines consider themselves white | |
| Posted by: oddone 07:33 am EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - Chazwaza 02:43 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| It's true that people from Argentina generally are read as "Latino" when they come to the States, but most (or at least many) Argentines consider themselves to be white. One of the many reasons racial politics can be far more complex than what often gets talked about. For that last revival, Laurents also went on record as saying he wanted Sharks who were fluent in Spanish, and I think this linguistic difference is perhaps a better way to think about the difference in WSS. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: most Argentines consider themselves white | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:19 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: most Argentines consider themselves white - oddone 07:33 am EDT 07/13/18 | |
|
|
|
| Having spent some time in Buenos Aires, I don't think very many porteños think in those terms, which are fretted about much more by their North American neighbors. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: most Argentines consider themselves white | |
| Posted by: oddone 09:06 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: re: most Argentines consider themselves white - ryhog 07:19 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
|
|
|
| Well no, they don't, but if you ask them, they'll respond "I'm white." (I've also spent a ton of time down there, and am married to an Argentine). They DO think about differences in class, of course. And nationality. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| this is not remotely relevant. | |
| Last Edit: ryhog 09:36 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:35 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: re: most Argentines consider themselves white - oddone 09:06 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
|
|
|
| North America and the US in particular does not think about race the same as anywhere else in the world. We have our own (fucked up) history and our own (fucked up) culture. I am happy to discuss this subject with you endlessly, but not here. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: this is not remotely relevant. | |
| Posted by: oddone 11:16 am EDT 07/15/18 | |
| In reply to: this is not remotely relevant. - ryhog 09:35 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
|
|
|
| It's very interesting that, whenever I post something, you find a reason to shift the focus, disagree with me, and generally turn the conversation into something it wasn't. I'm also not clear why my comments are suddenly "not relevant." Apparently because you've decided they are not? I had been responding to a previous poster talking about Josefina Scaglione and how she "read" on stage, in the context of that revival- and the poster suggested that she wasn't "white." And I was pointing out that conceptions of race are quite different in Argentina. Which you seem to agree with. But just because conceptions of race are different, that doesn't mean the same words aren't used. People use "white" to describe themselves in South America. It doesn't necessarily have the same meaning it does in the U.S., but it is a word that gets used. Which can lead to some confusion. And I'm sure you will find a way to disagree with this post as well. Even though I suspect we are pretty much saying the same thing. Because that seems to be what you like to do here. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: this is not remotely relevant. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:50 am EDT 07/15/18 | |
| In reply to: re: this is not remotely relevant. - oddone 11:16 am EDT 07/15/18 | |
|
|
|
| I seriously doubt that I respond to everything you post. TBH I don recall responding at all. That said, my experience is that "white" is not used, at least not in the way it is here. If your experience is different, then we disagree and that's fine: it's ok to disagree ya know. If it IS used in the way that you mention, with a different meaning, and in the context of different "conceptions of race," then we don't really disagree, but that is what I mean when I say it is irrelevant. Even within the English language we have words that have different connotations in different regions. Race in the US has a heightened significance (and history) that infects us (unfortunately) to the core, and in a way that is sui generis. (E.g., in the South American context, Lin-Manuel Miranda is white, in the sense that he is caucasian, but in the US, he fits the non-white descriptor sufficient to have starred in a musical calling for that.) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: this is not remotely relevant. | |
| Posted by: oddone 02:15 pm EDT 07/15/18 | |
| In reply to: re: this is not remotely relevant. - ryhog 11:50 am EDT 07/15/18 | |
|
|
|
| It sounds like we agree for the most part then. My point about relevance was that Scaglione is an Argentine, so it makes sense to think about Argentine conceptions of difference when talking about her, since presumably they inform how she thinks about herself. Which are not the same as how those in the U.S. see her. But those foreign conceptions of difference seem relevant in a way that they don't (as much) for LMM, who is from the U.S. And I'm not at all trying to argue for or against her "suitability" in being cast in West Side Story. It's just that I think there are severe limitations that come from looking at casting through such a narrow lens like race, limitations that become clear every time the casting of a show like West Side Story comes up. And to my mind, opening up the discussion to think about race outside of the U.S. can be a way to get at how race is very much a cultural construction, something that often gets overlooked. I also find a lot of discussions around race in the U.S. to be very U.S.-centric (ok, not surprising) even when the subject is non-U.S. (which is a bit more frustrating). And part of this is because people in the U.S. tend to not be very aware of other cultures/countries in a way that you don't see elsewhere in the world. One example- the conversation elsewhere on this board about how "America" isn't perhaps the same as "United States." This point was made by someone who didn't seem to understand the idea of "white privilege," so perhaps his other points were then dismissed by some. But it's a fair and important distinction that people elsewhere in the Americas understand, but which most folks in the U.S. have trouble even acknowledging. As is shown in that discussion, in which a poster suggests that because "America" is used a lot by U.S. citizens to refer to their country, that this therefore legitimizes the usage, and anyway, there isn't really any "connotation" or "meaning" to that label anyway. Said person is clear about what "white privilege" means, but clueless about how it might be problematic to equate "America" with "U.S." And yes- my experience (and my Argentine husband verifies this) is that Argentines definitely use the term "white" to describe themselves. For an interesting discussion of race and the idea of "white" in South America, check out the Rough Translation podcast, linked below. |
|
| Link | Rough Translation - Brazil in Black and White |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: this is not remotely relevant. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:12 pm EDT 07/15/18 | |
| In reply to: re: this is not remotely relevant. - oddone 02:15 pm EDT 07/15/18 | |
|
|
|
| I agree that we mostly agree, though I still don't see the relevance of Argentine racial identification to what is in essence a discussion of Broadway casting issues. Scaglione would not have thought of herself as a minority in Argentina; this is in fact a uniquely US cultural deficiency. When a show is cast in Argentina (or Sweden etc) a different set of casting considerations might come into play. IMO, of course. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: MikeR 02:32 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - lowwriter 01:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| So you're saying that only Latinx-identifying people can direct this show? A show that, by the way, isn't about Latin culture, but about a clash between two cultures. Maybe they should only hire directors who are half Polish/half Puerto Rican to direct it. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: royscho 02:37 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - MikeR 02:32 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I had the same argument about the upcoming movie with some people here. I agree with you in 100%, but I realized it's pointless to argue with the politically-correct crowd. No side will convince the other. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Bring it on! | |
| Posted by: portenopete 01:17 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - NewtonUK 12:51 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| Exactly! Whether or not I like it and whether or not people think it "works", it is definitely time to play with the classics of the genre. I'm happy to see faithfully- and beautifully-crafted replicas of 1957 and I think that that approach still works. And I don't need tinkerers to come in and rewrite scenes that are "problematic" politically or culturally: I'm smart enough to identify outdated mores and ethics and understand them in context. And when the time comes that nobody can understand that or when nobody is interested in resurrecting the old way, then they'll stop doing it because nobody will come. But at the same time- having seen van Hove's thoughtful and out-of-the-box work with A VIEW FROM THE BRIDGE, SCENES FROM A MARRIAGE, ANTIGONE and NETWORK- I am excited to see what he will do and how he tell these seminal stories. I want to see what he'd do with ANNIE!!! |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:02 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - NewtonUK 12:51 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I must say I am looking forward to this more than any revival I can imagine. I think we have had enough "re-imagining" of revivals that basically do nothing more than process the old bones through a contemporary filter. Ivo will rethink rather than just make a few gestures. Yay. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| This is genuinely exciting. | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 01:21 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - ryhog 01:02 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| And WEST SIDE STORY is by far my favorite musical. But after seeing video of the major departure in the Komishe Oper Berlin production a few years ago, which wasn't exactly my cup of tea, I'll admit, I began to crave a fresh and unique departure. The amount of DEEPLY REVERENT commentary these new artists give to Jerome Robbins and the original production is pretty stunning. It's very clear that they know full well how much pushback they're gonna get. Let's hope that they serve up something really breathtaking and beautiful. - GMB |
|
| Link | Komische Oper Berlin | WEST SIDE STORY (YouTube) |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: This is genuinely exciting. | |
| Posted by: Joe90 02:03 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: This is genuinely exciting. - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:21 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| The Komishe Oper production was pretty great in parts, if not entirely successful. I think that was due more to the fact that such houses - and their ensembles and orchestras - are not used to staging works that are from a popular repertoire. I recall that the spoken dialogue was in German, but then the songs were sung in English. It was a few years ago, but I recall that it had some nice directorial touches - the opening image, and the end of 'Somewhere' were particularly effective. And as potentially thrilling as a van Hove production of West Side Story may be, I'm really, *really* looking forward to see what De Keersmaeker does with the choreography. Joe. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: This is genuinely exciting. | |
| Posted by: AnnieBlack 01:26 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: This is genuinely exciting. - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:21 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I literally plan to buy tickets to this the minute they go on sale- can't think of a revival that I did that for recently! Exciting stuff | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: portenopete 01:19 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - ryhog 01:02 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| I felt this about both the WEST SIDE STORY at the Palace and FIDDLER at the Broadway. They were both okay- even good- but not really exciting. Adding Miranda's Spanish lyrics or Schechter's more modern choreo didn't really "re-imagine" sufficiently for my taste. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 01:14 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - ryhog 01:02 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| And Anne Teresa de Keersmaeker is an extraordinary choreographer - in much the same way as Pina Bausch (may she rest in peace), I think of de Keersmaeker as a 'dance maker'. Which to me is a compliment! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:40 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - NewtonUK 01:14 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| agreed. I meant to mention that but forgot. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 01:58 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - ryhog 01:40 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| (its hard to spell)!!! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:33 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - NewtonUK 01:58 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
|
|
|
| only if you don't know Dutch. :-) even harder to pronounce correctly. Ann-a Ta-RAY-sa da CARES-mark-ehr. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
Time to render: 0.216282 seconds.