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| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: lowwriter 01:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - NewtonUK 12:51 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
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| Because van Hove is just the right white man to illuminate Latino culture in a musical. | |
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| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:43 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - lowwriter 01:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
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| On one hand I agree with your point - I said the same thing when Michael Arden was announced to direct OOTI. But on the other hand I just wanna say I'm tired of this argument when it comes to art. I mean were Bernstein, Sondheim, Laurents and Robbins the "right white men" to write the very show we're talking about? And let's not forget that the show isn't *about* Latino culture... it's about a situation, a conflict, a love story... and a time. And it's about both a group of latino people AND a group of white people. Yes, it would be more than about time for a latinx person to direct a major revival of this show, since white people have done it every time. But Ivo is not your ordinary run of the mill white director... it's not like Rob Ashford got the job, or Michael Grandage, or even Joe Mantello. I am VERY excited to see what Ivo and his choreographer do with this. Why don't we start with getting the people who must actually represent the Puerto Rican people, the CAST playing them, to be ALL hispanic people... and I know they did this for the last revival and made a big deal about but, but... I hate to say this, I think as lovely as Josefina Scaglione's voice was, hiring a pale light skinned Argentinian actress to play Maria in the revival seems like a bit of a racial cop-out. Puerto Ricans are generally not that light skinned, and to make a whole show of casting actual hispanic people for that revival and then finding the lightest one they could seemed besides the point since all the pictures and videos promoting the show would still show the world another white-looking Maria. I don't know who is whiter looking between them, Josephina or Matt Cavenaugh. I know in reality that isn't relevant racially since she is not "white", but for the image of the show, and for anyone who doesn't know she is from Argentina, she appears white, like most other Marias in the history of the show. |
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| most Argentines consider themselves white | |
| Posted by: oddone 07:33 am EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - Chazwaza 02:43 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
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| It's true that people from Argentina generally are read as "Latino" when they come to the States, but most (or at least many) Argentines consider themselves to be white. One of the many reasons racial politics can be far more complex than what often gets talked about. For that last revival, Laurents also went on record as saying he wanted Sharks who were fluent in Spanish, and I think this linguistic difference is perhaps a better way to think about the difference in WSS. |
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| re: most Argentines consider themselves white | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:19 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: most Argentines consider themselves white - oddone 07:33 am EDT 07/13/18 | |
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| Having spent some time in Buenos Aires, I don't think very many porteños think in those terms, which are fretted about much more by their North American neighbors. | |
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| re: most Argentines consider themselves white | |
| Posted by: oddone 09:06 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: re: most Argentines consider themselves white - ryhog 07:19 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
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| Well no, they don't, but if you ask them, they'll respond "I'm white." (I've also spent a ton of time down there, and am married to an Argentine). They DO think about differences in class, of course. And nationality. |
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| this is not remotely relevant. | |
| Last Edit: ryhog 09:36 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:35 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
| In reply to: re: most Argentines consider themselves white - oddone 09:06 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
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| North America and the US in particular does not think about race the same as anywhere else in the world. We have our own (fucked up) history and our own (fucked up) culture. I am happy to discuss this subject with you endlessly, but not here. |
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| re: this is not remotely relevant. | |
| Posted by: oddone 11:16 am EDT 07/15/18 | |
| In reply to: this is not remotely relevant. - ryhog 09:35 pm EDT 07/13/18 | |
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| It's very interesting that, whenever I post something, you find a reason to shift the focus, disagree with me, and generally turn the conversation into something it wasn't. I'm also not clear why my comments are suddenly "not relevant." Apparently because you've decided they are not? I had been responding to a previous poster talking about Josefina Scaglione and how she "read" on stage, in the context of that revival- and the poster suggested that she wasn't "white." And I was pointing out that conceptions of race are quite different in Argentina. Which you seem to agree with. But just because conceptions of race are different, that doesn't mean the same words aren't used. People use "white" to describe themselves in South America. It doesn't necessarily have the same meaning it does in the U.S., but it is a word that gets used. Which can lead to some confusion. And I'm sure you will find a way to disagree with this post as well. Even though I suspect we are pretty much saying the same thing. Because that seems to be what you like to do here. |
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| re: this is not remotely relevant. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:50 am EDT 07/15/18 | |
| In reply to: re: this is not remotely relevant. - oddone 11:16 am EDT 07/15/18 | |
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| I seriously doubt that I respond to everything you post. TBH I don recall responding at all. That said, my experience is that "white" is not used, at least not in the way it is here. If your experience is different, then we disagree and that's fine: it's ok to disagree ya know. If it IS used in the way that you mention, with a different meaning, and in the context of different "conceptions of race," then we don't really disagree, but that is what I mean when I say it is irrelevant. Even within the English language we have words that have different connotations in different regions. Race in the US has a heightened significance (and history) that infects us (unfortunately) to the core, and in a way that is sui generis. (E.g., in the South American context, Lin-Manuel Miranda is white, in the sense that he is caucasian, but in the US, he fits the non-white descriptor sufficient to have starred in a musical calling for that.) | |
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| re: this is not remotely relevant. | |
| Posted by: oddone 02:15 pm EDT 07/15/18 | |
| In reply to: re: this is not remotely relevant. - ryhog 11:50 am EDT 07/15/18 | |
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| It sounds like we agree for the most part then. My point about relevance was that Scaglione is an Argentine, so it makes sense to think about Argentine conceptions of difference when talking about her, since presumably they inform how she thinks about herself. Which are not the same as how those in the U.S. see her. But those foreign conceptions of difference seem relevant in a way that they don't (as much) for LMM, who is from the U.S. And I'm not at all trying to argue for or against her "suitability" in being cast in West Side Story. It's just that I think there are severe limitations that come from looking at casting through such a narrow lens like race, limitations that become clear every time the casting of a show like West Side Story comes up. And to my mind, opening up the discussion to think about race outside of the U.S. can be a way to get at how race is very much a cultural construction, something that often gets overlooked. I also find a lot of discussions around race in the U.S. to be very U.S.-centric (ok, not surprising) even when the subject is non-U.S. (which is a bit more frustrating). And part of this is because people in the U.S. tend to not be very aware of other cultures/countries in a way that you don't see elsewhere in the world. One example- the conversation elsewhere on this board about how "America" isn't perhaps the same as "United States." This point was made by someone who didn't seem to understand the idea of "white privilege," so perhaps his other points were then dismissed by some. But it's a fair and important distinction that people elsewhere in the Americas understand, but which most folks in the U.S. have trouble even acknowledging. As is shown in that discussion, in which a poster suggests that because "America" is used a lot by U.S. citizens to refer to their country, that this therefore legitimizes the usage, and anyway, there isn't really any "connotation" or "meaning" to that label anyway. Said person is clear about what "white privilege" means, but clueless about how it might be problematic to equate "America" with "U.S." And yes- my experience (and my Argentine husband verifies this) is that Argentines definitely use the term "white" to describe themselves. For an interesting discussion of race and the idea of "white" in South America, check out the Rough Translation podcast, linked below. |
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| Link | Rough Translation - Brazil in Black and White |
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| re: this is not remotely relevant. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:12 pm EDT 07/15/18 | |
| In reply to: re: this is not remotely relevant. - oddone 02:15 pm EDT 07/15/18 | |
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| I agree that we mostly agree, though I still don't see the relevance of Argentine racial identification to what is in essence a discussion of Broadway casting issues. Scaglione would not have thought of herself as a minority in Argentina; this is in fact a uniquely US cultural deficiency. When a show is cast in Argentina (or Sweden etc) a different set of casting considerations might come into play. IMO, of course. | |
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| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: MikeR 02:32 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - lowwriter 01:47 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
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| So you're saying that only Latinx-identifying people can direct this show? A show that, by the way, isn't about Latin culture, but about a clash between two cultures. Maybe they should only hire directors who are half Polish/half Puerto Rican to direct it. | |
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| re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway | |
| Posted by: royscho 02:37 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Tony Winner Ivo van Hove to Direct 'West Side Story' on Broadway - MikeR 02:32 pm EDT 07/12/18 | |
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| I had the same argument about the upcoming movie with some people here. I agree with you in 100%, but I realized it's pointless to argue with the politically-correct crowd. No side will convince the other. | |
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