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| Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:24 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| I'll admit I haven't re-watched it before posting this question, but I did see it again a couple of years ago and I was surprised by how good I thought it was. The screenplay is pretty faithful, all the songs are there, and the performances are fantastic. The 3 leads - what more did Laurents want? Yes, Roz couldn't sing the part but the way it's dubbed she basically does anyway, and her acting is great in my opinion. I know he hated the movie and it almost kept him from allowing the 1993 Bette Midler movie to be made. So what was so awful to make him feel this strongly? And how were neither Roz nor Natalie Wood nominated for Oscars? It was a very competitive year, but I wonder if the critics and academy felt the same way I do about the performances. I know Roz won a Golden Globe for it, beating Natalie so only one of them could have won for it anyway. And I'm curious - generally, do you all feel the Bette movie is better, or the Roz? |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: Dr._L 01:01 am EDT 09/02/18 | |
| In reply to: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - Chazwaza 03:24 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| The version i’ve heard is that those who saw Judy and Liza’s audition were heartbroken when the funders decided the mother and daughter were too volatile to entrust in roles for a film that represented a substantial investment. I can’t imagine being too enthusiastic after losing Garland and Minnelli. | |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 01:25 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - Dr._L 01:01 am EDT 09/02/18 | |
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| I've heard and read a fair amount about the film version of Gypsy and the casting, but I've never read or heard that Judy and Liza auditioned for it. I've heard, although I don't think in any place that I regard as especially reliable, that Judy wanted the film, but nothing about them actually auditioning. I've just basically heard that Jack Warner would not seriously consider Judy for the film. Do you recall where you read or heard that Judy and Liza auditioned for it? | |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: Dr._L 10:46 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - AlanScott 01:25 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
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| Good question. I have had no luck laying my hands on printed evidence. Perhaps I have inadvertently perpetuated an urban legend! I see you post here frequently. When I do run across confirmation, I will let you know. |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 01:06 am EDT 09/05/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - Dr._L 10:46 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
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| Yes, I think this must be some urban myth, although one I've never heard before, perhaps someone getting mixed up with Garland's audition to replace Lansbury in Mame. FWIW, since you mentioned it in connection with Laurents — how could he like the movie version of Gypsy when Garland wanted it and didn't get it? — I don't think Laurents ever mentioned anything about Garland not getting the movie. Actually, a friend of Laurents's was announced in the press as being up for the movie, and that was another Judy — Holliday. But I've never heard that she auditioned for it. She was just a person who was mentioned in the press a few times as being a likely Rose in the movie. |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: bicoastal 01:48 pm EDT 08/28/18 | |
| In reply to: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - Chazwaza 03:24 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| At a charity function some years back I was able to talk to Sondheim for a few minutes, and I asked him why the creative team hated this movie so much. It took some pushing but he did admit that no one liked Roz Russell's performance because she was too "elegant". He said Rose was a tough, scrappy type and lamented that Russell didn't play that. I didn't ask if they all wanted Merman, but in a way I'm glad she didn't do the movie. She was way too big for the screen and probably wouldn't have made the movie better (see "Call Me Madam" for example). And I love me some Merman. As for Laurents, he certainly revered his own work! I actually like the screen version of West Side Story better than the stage--I think the choices made were absolutely right for a film vs. a play. But as original author, Laurents has a right to his opinion and it's hard to argue that the stage version is any less than it should be. I do think the stage version of Gypsy is probably the best book ever for a musical, it's so tight and it runs very deep. The movie isn't better in that regard, although much of the original, including structure, is preserved. Natalie Wood's performance is just perfect, IMHO, it breaks my heart every time I watch her in "All I Need Is the Girl". She did the movie on the condition that she not be dubbed after she felt she was cheated out of the vocals on WSS (which, of course, she couldn't possibly do justice to). Roz's performance of "Everything's Coming Up Roses" is amazing, even if she is dubbed. Less so for "Rose's Turn". As for the Bette Midler version, I can hardly watch it. It feels hammy and pushes too hard, and Cynthia Gibb is the weakest Louise I've ever seen. I know that director Emile Ardolino was quite sick during the making and did not guide with a firm hand; he died before the movie aired. Based on the poster's note below, I want to watch "Rose's Turn" and see how that plays. BTW, Barbara Harris was cast as one of the strippers (I think it was Tessie, but I can't remember for sure) but apparently was not in a head space that allowed her to stay on the film and so was replaced. |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:41 pm EDT 08/28/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - bicoastal 01:48 pm EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| Yes, Harris was announced as Tessie, and I think she may have started rehearsals. I don't recall ever having read anything terribly specific about why she was replaced (and, of course, if I had read something, it might not have been accurate). | |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: bicoastal 08:01 pm EDT 08/28/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - AlanScott 05:41 pm EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| I was told by one of the producers that she couldn't handle the pressure of performing. But that is all I knew and that could mean anything. | |
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| Roz's Turn vs Bette's Turn | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 03:37 pm EDT 08/28/18 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:31 pm EDT 08/28/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - bicoastal 01:48 pm EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| I rewatched today, and I just think Roz's acting was just better than Bette's - though both were good. Roz I don't believe actually had what it takes, and I don't fully believe that she's blowing the cork and letting it out.... I do with Bette, but almost too much, and Bette is so big in her acting choices here where as Roz is much more grounded. However I think Roz is much better in the beginning of the song, and Bette is much better in the second part when she starts doing the fantasy striptease section and the mental breakdown. They let her take her time with the beats of it, whereas Roz just plows through it... but then Bette becomes too much again when she does this "i'm almost gonna faint I'm so overwhelmed" stuff. Generally I like the way it was staged and shot better with Roz than Bette. For example, with bette when the stage lights first come on as the delusion starts, they don't pull out or cut to a wide shot of her on stage or of the lights going on, they stay on her and we just see the new stage lights weirdly reflected off the back wall (made of tile for some reason). So there's so establishing that things in the theater are different. That's KEY to this scene. And some of the hand choreography they have Bette doing is so staged, it's like she rehearsed this number, and it should never look like that. Worst of all is at the moment when she sings "where would you be, miss Gypsy Rose Lee!!" and they have her doing this stagey hand movements like she's framing or presenting the thought to an audience rather than lost in her own anger and conflict. Also the Bette one is shot almost entire in 1-shots of her, very few wide shots to give you a sense of her alone on a stage with an empty house in front of her. I think the way they staged/shot the Roz scene gives you a much better sense of where she is and what's going on. But even then there's little things - like I like that Roz went to the side curtain for "You like it?" but they didn't have the off-stage men's voices shout back "yeah!" - they do that for Bette, but she doesn't go sex-it-up (or whatever) at the side curtain. So... i like bits of both and I think some bits are missing. |
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| re: Roz's Turn vs Bette's Turn | |
| Posted by: sf 09:39 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: Roz's Turn vs Bette's Turn - Chazwaza 03:31 pm EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| "I do with Bette, but almost too much, and Bette is so big in her acting choices here" The Midler film had a limited theatrical release in the UK. It works much better on a big screen - which is a problem, given that it was made for television. |
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| re: Roz's Turn vs Bette's Turn | |
| Posted by: JohnDunlop 08:57 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Roz's Turn vs Bette's Turn - sf 09:39 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
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| Around the time of Bette's "Gypsy," she was part of a charity tribute in New York to Merman with Stritch and several other singers. Midler was not awful, but Stritch was much better. Yes, I am aware that Stritch knew Merman, but it was still a surprise. | |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 07:16 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
| In reply to: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - Chazwaza 03:24 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| The screenplay is not "fairly faithful" to the play. It adds voice overs, combines Herbie with a another character, and makes a hash of the June/Louise/Tulsa plot. I think the fact that it changes so much of the musical's book for no discernible reason and in each case weakens the script--that would be enough to make the original author hate it. |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 09:26 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - whereismikeyfl 07:16 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| I would say the screenplay is at least "fairly" faithful to the stage script, especially in comparison to many other films of stage musicals. Although I don't feel the combination of Uncle Jocko and Herbie was necessary, I really don't think it harms the script at all. I'm of two minds about the change in regard to June running off with one of the other boys rather than with Tulsa; it does weaken the moment in one sense, but on the other hand, it gives us that really touching, beautifully acted "goodbye" scene between Louise and Tulsa. I agree that the narration voiceovers were a mistake, And actually, I think the biggest mistake in the adaptation is something you didn't mention: moving "Small World" to earlier in the story, before "Some People." |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: maryd186 06:55 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
| In reply to: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - Chazwaza 03:24 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| All the songs are there? Wasn't 'Together Wherever We Go' cut from the movie? I haven't seen it in a very long time, but I thought that number was not there. | |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: TheOtherOne 07:30 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - maryd186 06:55 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| It was cut. It was shot for the film but edited out before release, as was the duet portion of “You’ll Never Get Away From Me.” In each case the edit is awkward. The outtakes can be seen on the DVD version. Russell sings in both cases, so the decision to edit must have been an early one. “Together,” raspily croaked or not, is charming. I believe the outtakes were a gift to and from Karl Malden, who enjoyed working on both numbers and was sorry to see them go. (The one number was abridged and the other was removed to reduce the running time of the film.) |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: bobby2 03:48 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
| In reply to: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - Chazwaza 03:24 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| The Oscars as you say were very competitive that year. Best Actress is one of the rare years where anyone of the five could have won and been considered deserving. There was just no room for the Gypsy women. I think the original version is better overall but Midler really kills Rose's Turn. To me that is the best it has ever been done. (obviously I didn't see Merman or Lansbury) but I saw Tyne, Bernadette and Patti but Bette is the definitive in my book. Russell is pretty good though too. Those movies where they dubbed them are always hard to judge. I find myself distracted like...she's good but wait its somebody else really.... |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:15 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - bobby2 03:48 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| Except in Gypsy Roz's singing is largely her own - it's her, blended with a singer who helps her with the notes. But it sounds like her most of the time, as i recall, and the acting is there because it's from her own vocal performance. I mean it's always hard in a musical film when they are acting to a track they pre-recorded, so that's a problem with many film musicals and a huge challenge for any actor to both re-create what they did when they recorded the track AND to be at the place, performance-wise, when they record the songs first that they are weeks or months later when they are acting it. |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: TheOtherOne 06:50 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - Chazwaza 04:15 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| Roz does very little singing in the film. She sings all of "Mr. Goldstone" (I believe she performed it live, in fact) and the first half of "Rose's Turn" until Lisa Kirk's voice kicks in for "I had a dream.." and sings the rest of the song. Lisa dubs her well, but the go-for-broke quality that defined most stage Rose's interpretations of their songs is absent . The heights that such intensity can provide are lacking in the film. Still, I have to agree that it isn't a film that deserved the terrible reputation it acquired over the years. The voice over narration, which comes, goes and never seems to be there for any purpose, is probably its biggest drawback, but even that is relatively minor. Arthur Laurents was a prickly man, by all accounts. The 1955 film version of "The Time of the Cuckoo," called "Summertime,", the 1961 film version of "West Side Story," the 1962 film and 2003 Sam Mendes revival of "Gypsy" all unleashed his wrath at one time or another. Of course it is difficult for any writer to see someone else's interpretation of his or her works, but in his case it was more than that. He needed control. He didn't do well when the control was in other people's hands, and he had nothing to do with these productions. He lacked objectivity and he couldn't bear the results. There is no need to let that stop you from enjoying any of the works I just mentioned, including the 1962 "Gypsy." |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 07:56 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - TheOtherOne 06:50 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| Mervyn LeRoy, who directed the movie version of Gypsy, had made some successful gangster pix at Warner Bros in the early 30s. 30 years later he had lost that exciting touch. Just before Gypsy he directed Roz in a stolid and laughable film called A Majority of One with Roz as a stereotypical Jewish mama from Brooklyn and Alec Guinness as a Japanese! So Roz trusted him on Gypsy. I think her health problems had already begun. I can see why the decision was made to combine Herbie with Uncle Jocko - it gives the male star more to do and should have tied him closer to Rose. I think the narration might have been added after a cut was shown to executives who thought points needed to be clarified. Something similar happens in the film Valley of the Dolls 5 years later. It's fun to think who might have been a better movie director on Gypsy: Charles Walters, Cukor, Donen, Robbins, etc. |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: Jax 11:27 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - AnObserver 07:56 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| Because he was Arthur Laurents. End of story. As for the film, it's much better than its reputation. Russell's performance is rock solid -- better than many who followed, dont want to start arguments here -- and you simply have to accept the dubbing, which was part of the deal back then. Wood shimmers, her strip number is still a show stopper. The whole film feels big and slow and that's because Mervyn LeRoy was Warner's go to guy for Broadway shows, Majority of One, Mary, Mary. If anything, he was too faithful. But the film preserves two good performances and some fine numbers. It's worth a watch. |
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| re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 07:39 am EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why did Arthur Laurents hate the 1962 film of Gypsy? - Jax 11:27 am EDT 08/28/18 | |
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| More than two: Betty Bruce is a delight as Tessie, and Faith Dane. Bruce did it on stage with Merman and apparently they were buddies. | |
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