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| Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Posted by: Clancy 12:15 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| It hadn't really occurred to me that Fela was a jukebox musical. But on reflection I suppose it was. And I'm surprised American Idiot didn't come up in the discussion, which I think worked well. |
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| Link | NYT: Can Critics Learn to Love the Jukebox Musical? |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Posted by: reed23 05:51 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - Clancy 12:15 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| Interesting (and silly) that Green categorizes "Kismet" as a "jukebox musical." | |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Posted by: jgerard 12:39 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - Clancy 12:15 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| Does anyone else think it's odd that Ain't Misbehavin' – for my money, the best jukebox musical ever – doesn't even rate a mention in this navel scratcher of a piece? Or, now that I think of it, Julie Taymor's amazing Across The Universe? | |
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| Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 08:09 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - jgerard 12:39 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| That's why they didn't mention it. It's a revue. Big difference. Just like Smokey Joe's Cafe isn't a jukebox either. | |
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| Weird things in that talk | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:28 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
| In reply to: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical - KingSpeed 08:09 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| Well, it's Smokey's Joe's that starts the discussion, although Jesse Green then says that it's "only a jukebox in the most rudimentary sense." Which I think is not a good way of putting it. SCOTT HELLER Jesse, it was nice seeing “Smokey Joe’s Cafe” with you the other night. Am I right that we both left with our heads spinning? I almost think you became a convert to the joys of the jukebox musical! JESSE GREEN Nothing could cause that conversion, but then “Smokey Joe’s” is only a jukebox in the most rudimentary sense. It is not, like many of these shows, biographical; it does not apply an invented story to an existing song catalog; it does not pour sanctimony and Brylcreem over the top. It’s a revue — and, as I was surprised to find — a good one. The singers were sensational and were allowed to do what sensational singers can: Make drama out of their voices. And then we soon have this: ELISABETH VINCENTELLI Is it worth starting with how we define the jukebox musical? You could argue that there are lots of Sondheim jukebox musicals, but they are usually called “revues,” which is a way to avoid a certain stigma. GREEN Note, though, that those are jukeboxes of songs written for the theater. It's puzzling that Green doesn't then say, "Right. Those are revues." And that Vincentelli perhaps doesn't even truly get the difference. She seems to be suggesting that the word revues is used at least partly to avoid a certain stigma. Which is kind of ignorant as they were being called revues before anyone seems to have used the term jukebox musical. Isn't there another term that's occasionally used for such shows? Something like "catalog shows?" I do think there should be a term to differentiate shows like Side by Side by Sondheim and Ain't Misbehavin' from the old-fashioned type of revues that we almost never see nowadays (e.g., The Band Wagon, As Thousands Cheer, all those Ziegfeld Follies, New Faces and Scandals)? |
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| re: Weird things in that talk | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 05:16 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 05:07 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
| In reply to: Weird things in that talk - AlanScott 04:28 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
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| Isn't there another term that's occasionally used for such shows? Something like "catalog shows?" I do think there should be a term to differentiate shows like Side by Side by Sondheim and Ain't Misbehavin' from the old-fashioned type of revues that we almost never see nowadays (e.g., The Band Wagon, As Thousands Cheer, all those Ziegfeld Follies, New Faces and Scandals)? I've occasionally heard people refer to them as "songbook revues" or "songbook shows." Most people in my experience, especially those also in the biz, tend to simply call them "revues." I've honestly never seen why jukebox shows can't be called revues (i.e. "jukebox revues") on the occasions that they are in fact presented in a revue format. Seems to me that jukebox shows with books are book shows, and jukebox shows with no book (or just simple narration, like it is in Side By Side) are revues, just the same way that shows with "traditional" theatre scores would be referred to in the same way. I still feel that what defines a jukebox show is the specific style and origin of the music being used - not the overall format of the show. Then, of course, there's the question of "reviews [sic]" - like Putting It Together - A Musical Review (I've heard various stories that the seeming misspelling was either exactly that - or that it was deliberate), or a play like Groucho - A Life In Review (which has enough songs in it to almost feel like a revue, except that I do think here the word "review" is being used more literally as looking back thorugh Groucho's story. But maybe it's meant to be a bit of a double meaning.) Or - comparing shows like Cole (the British revue that, to its detriment, IMO, uses bits of Zelda and F. Scott Fitzgerald to "narrate" an otherwise wall-to-wall evening of songs) to a very odd piece called Red, Hot And Cole which is a revue of songs couched in a fictional "party" with Porter and his iconic buddies like Monty Wooley and Elsa Maxwell. With horribly unimaginative bland song arrangements. The latter show tries to sorta be a book show, but it still ultimately feels like a revue of Porter songs. (The "book scenes" as I recall are really there to highlight the songs and get from one song to another - and much less to tell any particular story, let alone offer a viable plot.) In any case, to me, the very fine Smokey Joe's Cafe is a "jukebox revue." Your millage may vary. Whatever it is, it's a very fun show. |
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| re: Weird things in that talk | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 11:17 am EDT 09/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Weird things in that talk - Chromolume 05:07 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
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| "I've honestly never seen why jukebox shows can't be called revues (i.e. 'jukebox revues') on the occasions that they are in fact presented in a revue format." That's how I think of them, except I wouldn't use the word jukebox. I think of Smokey Joe's Café as simply a revue or a songbook show, not a jukebox anything. I understand why people use the word in describing it, but I wouldn't use it. |
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| re: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 10:09 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:03 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical - KingSpeed 08:09 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| See, it's funny - I think that Smokey Joe's Cafe IS a jukebox musical, because the music is the rock and roll catalogue of Lieber and Stoller. I don't think there's any reason why a jukebox show can't be in a revue format. To me, Ain't Misbehavin' isn't a jukebox show mainly because the term has usually been applied to shows featuring non-theatre music of the rock era - but Ain't Misbehavin's music not only pre-dates that era, but some of the songs were indeed written for shows. It has nothing to do with the show's structure - it's the music used in it. |
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| re: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical | |
| Last Edit: ryhog 01:59 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:56 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical - Chromolume 10:03 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| A few thoughts... First, I think the term jukebox is more or less contemporaneous with the early days of rock and roll. (There were of course earlier coin-ops but I don't think they were called jukeboxes, were they? Second, I of course agree that the structure of a show is irrelevant. Third, I also agree that Ain't Misbehaving would not fit the model, but I think the reason is a little broader. Jukebox musicals exist (unfortunately in my view) because there was a perceived need to get folks into theatre seats with music that resonated for them (i.e., that was popular) because the music being written for the theatre stopped being popular (coincidentally around the time jukeboxes started being a thing). That makes no sense for Ain't Misbehavin' because Fats Waller was writing his songs at a time when there was no such distinction. (Edit: I hadn't seen your (earlier) post below that basically says the same thing. I think we are in substantial agreement.) | |
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| re: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:09 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical - ryhog 01:56 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
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| Yes. ;-) And you mentioned something which I always feel is true, but didn't really express - which is that I agree that jukebox musicals are designed for the audiences who will recognize and celebrate all the big hit tunes they already know, and ride on the specific nostalgia of that singer/composer/group and their songs. Ain't Misbehavin' does feature some familiar songs, but many of them were not so well-known at the time, and some of the arrangements (for instance, the vocalese lyrics for Fats' original piano solo "Handful Of Keys") were written/conceived just for the occasion. The show was a celebration of all things Fats Waller, but not in the current way that jukebox shows do it. |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 03:06 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - jgerard 12:39 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| I think it comes down to whether you think that "jukebox musical" is the right term for the show. I'm not sure it is. Some of those songs were actually written for Broadway shows, and I also tend to think of "jukebox shows" as being more rock/pop oriented - Waller's music was "pop" in his day, but somehow it feels like a different kind of musical "catalogue" lol. I know we may all have different opinions on what "jukebox" covers and what it doesn't. But I would definitely agree that the show itself is a huge benchmark. So well-conceived and so classy - and so much fun. (And no matter how many times I hear that arrangement of "Black And Blue" - it always gets me emotional. And then to be topped by that whole finale sequence...just perfection.) |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:41 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - Chromolume 03:06 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| "I know we may all have different opinions on what 'jukebox' covers and what it doesn't. " Absolutely, plus I think AIN'T MISBEHAVIN' is best classified as a revue, and many people make a pretty strong distinction between (1) revues, and (2) shows that take old songs and put them into some new narrative context. In debating this broad subject, it's wise to remember that many of these shows are different from the others in important ways. JERSEY BOYS, BEAUTIFUL, LENNON, RING OF FIRE, HEAD OVER HEELS, MAMMA MIA!, MOVIN' OUT, and CONTACT are only a few examples of shows that have major differences between each other even though they might all fit under the very large umbrella of the "jukebox musical." |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 08:12 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - Michael_Portantiere 04:41 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| I wouldn't consider CONTACT a jukebox musical. It's a play with music and dance. I didn't have a problem with it winning a Tony though. It was the best show that season. | |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 10:24 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:24 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - KingSpeed 08:12 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| I wouldn't consider CONTACT a jukebox musical. It's a play with music and dance. And the only rock/pop music is in the last sequence in the club. Not enough to qualify it as a jukebox score, IMO. To me, the show is a very expensive dance recital, with the boombox hooked up to a Broadway sound system, and done in a theatre instead of a dance studio. ;-) |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Last Edit: jjbkvm 08:30 am EDT 08/30/18 | |
| Posted by: jjbkvm 08:28 am EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - Clancy 12:15 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| sorry this was already noted | |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Posted by: garyd 02:44 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - Clancy 12:15 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| Green mentions "American Idiot" though it is not actually discussed by the four of them. | |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Last Edit: Bwayguy 02:17 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| Posted by: Bwayguy 02:15 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - Clancy 12:15 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| Imagine if Jesse Green had reviewed Moulin Rouge instead of Brantley... | |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Posted by: Ballerina56 09:21 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - Bwayguy 02:15 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| At first I thought I missed a paragraph--but based on their previous responses, I guess it's no surprise they totally blew off any suggestion on how to make "The Cher Show" and "Ain't Too Proud" rise above the pack. | |
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| I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical | |
| Last Edit: KingSpeed 01:42 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 01:40 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - Clancy 12:15 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| It was pretty much released as a musical and then Michael Mayer staged it. Similar to Tommy & Jesus Christ Superstar. I wouldn't consider those jukebox musicals. | |
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| re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical | |
| Last Edit: EvFoDr 02:29 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 02:26 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical - KingSpeed 01:40 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| Except it did incorporate songs from a more current Green Day album in addition to American Idiot. But I still agree with you. It was not the entire Green Day catalog superimposed onto some new story, or a bio musical of the band. Which I consider the basic definition of a Jukebox musical. I think of it as a rock opera. The album was created with a basic storyline and the songs tell that story. Although not in the most literal sense that songs do in an book musical. | |
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| re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:36 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical - EvFoDr 02:26 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| I would argue that 21st Century Breakdown was in the nature of a sequel to American Idiot and that the Broadway show condensed the two, but jettisoning the change of location and characters of the latter which would have been unwieldy onstage. I'm not prepared to argue the point strenuously, but both albums were written theatrically (whether labelled a musical, an opera, or something else). This was not a case of fitting a square peg in a round hole, which to me is the definition of a jukebox musical. | |
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| re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 03:06 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical - ryhog 02:36 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| Thanks for the insight. Prior to the arrival of American Idiot on Broadway I was not a follower of Green Day or their albums. I had no idea 21st Century Breakdown was a sequel to AI. I saw an early preview and absolutely fell in LOVE with this show. At that preview they had not yet begun to tack on the Good Riddance encore. I really wish they hadn’t done that. It feels like, oh we must let people hear a really popular Green Day song form the radio that has nothing to do with this show. The gorgeous gorgeous aching ending with the slow curtain falling and cello deserves to be left on its own as the last thing the audience hears/sees. | |
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| re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical | |
| Posted by: ryhog 05:01 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical - EvFoDr 03:06 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| To be clear, I'm not sure sequel is the right term, and I've never seen anyone use it except me just now lol. But it is a thematic extension and styled with characters etc, which is certainly not typical. I understand the thought about the curtain call. That tonal break happens sometimes even without songs. You can thank Tom Kitt for that cello; Green Day liked his work enough they hired him to "orchestrate" the next 3 albums after that. Finally, Good Riddance is, I think, a great song, often misunderstood. It's among the best breakup songs ever written by a man, methinks. |
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| re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical | |
| Posted by: SuzanneR 06:57 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical - ryhog 05:01 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| I’ve often thought of it as a sequel, and I’m sure I’ve heard it described that way by others. | |
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| re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 05:43 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical - ryhog 05:01 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| I did know about Tom Kitt’s contributions. I am sure you saw the documentary as well? I think that he helped make the songs more theatrical by adding not only the string section, but also the choral work. The arrangements are stunning and helped bring a lifelong musical theatre devotee (me) in sync with Green Day’s style of music. I was excited he would collaborate with Green Day on their next albums! I got Uno and Dos but petered out before Tres 😊. I think Good Riddance is a great song, I just don’t love it as the encore to American Idiot the musical. The still silence at the end of the show (before it was added) had a profound effect on me and my love for the show. I’m so grateful I chanced to see an early performance before it was added. |
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| re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 10:20 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:16 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical - EvFoDr 05:43 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| I think Good Riddance is a great song, I just don’t love it as the encore to American Idiot the musical. The still silence at the end of the show (before it was added) had a profound effect on me and my love for the show. I’m so grateful I chanced to see an early performance before it was added. In general, and with very few exceptions, I'm not a fan of the cast singing after the main show is over. I understand that it can be a huge audience pleaser; that doesn't mean I have to like it, lol. American Idiot is unique, I think, in that the extra song is not from the show. But to me, "megamixes" and post-show finale medleys (including, yes, the one in Hello, Dolly) are the spawn of satan to me. The one exception I can think of is the ending of She Loves Me, where the use of the "Thank you / please come again" song is very cleverly done, and cleverly appropriate - and most importantly - not over the top. The show's creators had the good sense NOT to follow that with a full company medley of Ice Cream and other big songs, lol. Ick. Seeing Moulin Rouge, another case of excess. Yes, I get why they felt the needed to add that big company ending sequence. Yes, it would have been a very courageous thing to not do that - and maybe the ending of the show proper would have seemed just way too dark to do that. But the post-show stuff went on way way too long, even as solidly performed as it was. It was the only time in the entire show where I wasn't engaged with the material. And yes, "Good Riddance" is a fine song - but in the context of the show, especially with the full cast playing guitars, etc, it comes off to me as merely a cute stunt. I'm not sure that was the intention. |
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| re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical | |
| Posted by: ryhog 08:48 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical - EvFoDr 05:43 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| I have seen it. I think I actually bought it and I never do that. I agree about Kitt and I also wanted to let you know that Tres itself kinda petered out. They were put out during a rough patch for Armstrong. The most recent album Revolution Radio is is terrific. I like a great many songs on it but Troubled Times knocked me for a loop the first time I heard it and still does. Thanks also to Suzanne for letting me know I wasn't as off base as I thought I might be :-) |
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| re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 10:11 am EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: I don't think American Idiot is a jukebox musical - ryhog 08:48 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| Thanks! I didn't know about Revolution Radio. I'll check it out. | |
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