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| When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Last Edit: RobertC 01:04 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 01:00 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| Some examples: Should a revival of Grease drop all the songs the film version did and add the new ones? Should a revival of Camelot make the story a flashback? Should a revival of Fanny or |
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| It should be influenced by the script the authors wrote and any revisions they approved of n/m | |
| Posted by: Michael_212 07:55 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - RobertC 01:00 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: maryd186 03:21 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - RobertC 01:00 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| The last time I saw 'An Ordinary Couple' used in a stage production of 'The Sound of Music' was probably in the 1980s - otherwise it has been 'Something Good' all the way. I don't have a problem with that - I prefer the latter song. And while I remember being very excited to see 'I Have Confidence' used in a stage production of the show for the first time, again, in the 1980s, I don't feel it really fits in with the flow of the scenes. I don't think there is a fast rule here, but sometimes it is obvious when something that was terrific onscreen, does not fit in on the stage. I can give the NBC Live version of the show a point here - it did not insert 'I Have Confidence.' | |
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| Correction to OP | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 01:17 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - RobertC 01:00 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| Last line should read Should a revival of FANNY or IRMA LA DOUCE drop all its songs? | |
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| re: Correction to OP | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 01:33 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: Correction to OP - RobertC 01:17 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| That might depend on whether the film version was an improvement over the stage version which is very rare. IMHO, Grease the movie was an improvement over the stage version, mostly because of the incredible charisma of the two stars, hard to duplicate either on stage or in a movie remake. Otherwise, no, the stage version is the blueprint for later stage revivals. Cabaret is perhaps an exception, because some of the song replacements are decidedly better than the stage versions (Money, Money vs. Money Makes the World Go Around and Mein Herr is stronger than several songs in the stage version that it might replace). On the other hand when the movie is a mess (A Little Night Music anyone?), one does not want to bring that onto the stage. | |
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| re: Correction to OP | |
| Posted by: StanS 01:50 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Correction to OP - Snowysdad 01:33 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| Sometimes, even if the film version is an improvement, it might not be appropriate. For example, I think the film of CHICAGO is an improvement over the stage version. But the improvement was borne of the need to find a cinematic embodiment of the material, and I don't see that concept working on the stage. | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:07 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - RobertC 01:00 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| No. ;-) | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:11 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Chromolume 01:07 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| Yes, sure, why not. Audiences come expecting the things they love from the movie, and often a film version might fix problems from the original that the creators couldn't figure out the first time around | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Last Edit: EvFoDr 01:31 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 01:30 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Singapore/Fling 01:11 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| I agree. The word "influence" suggests choices made freely. So as long as the people doing the revival aren't forced to consider the film version, why not have the option? I am sure we all have examples in the plus and minus column. I don't want to see You Must Love Me in the stage version of Evita because it feels too soft for the moment and at odds with the way their relationship is conveyed in the stage version. On the other hand I much prefer the duet Money Money song in Cabaret versus the original solo Money Song. |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 01:35 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - EvFoDr 01:30 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| I like Sitting Pretty better than Money Makes the World Go Round. More fun, better lyrics, and less repetitive. | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 07:15 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - KingSpeed 01:35 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| I like the song - but I cannot understand how you think that the film song's lyrics are repetitive but "Sitting Pretty"'s lyrics are not... have you looked at them recently? They are literally repetitive. | |
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| What?? | |
| Last Edit: KingSpeed 01:11 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 01:07 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Chazwaza 07:15 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
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| Sitting Pretty lyrics: My father needs money my uncle needs money my mother is thin as a reed But me I'm sitting pretty I've got all the money I need My dearest friend Fritzy is out of his wits He has four starving children to feed But me I'm sitting pretty I've got all the money I need I know my little cousin Eric has his creditors hysterical Also cousin Herman had to pawn his mother's ermine And my sister and my brother took to hocking one another too But I'm not a nincompoop I've got an income you put in the bank to accrue Yes me I'm sitting pretty life is pretty sitting with you Meanwhile: Money Makes the World Go Round, the World Go Round, the World Go Round Money Makes the World Go Round, it makes the World Go Round |
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| A bit disingenuous, no? | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 02:53 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: What?? - KingSpeed 01:07 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
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| If you happen to rich And you feel like a night's entertainment You can pay for a gay escapade If you happen to be rich and alone And you need a companion You can ring (ting-a-ling) for the maid If you happen to be rich And you find you are left by your lover And you moan and you groan quite a lot You can take it on the chin Call a cab and begin to recover On your 14-karat yacht! WHAT!? Money makes the world go around ...the world go around ...the world go around Money makes the world go aroung Of that we both are sure... *rasberry sound* on being poor! Money money money money Money money money money Money money money... When you haven't any coal in the stove And you freeze in the winter And you curse to the wind at your fate When you haven't any shoes on your feet Your coat's thin as paper And you look 30 pounds underweight When you go to get a word of advice From the fat little pastor He will tell you to love evermore But when hunger comes to rap Rat-a-tat rat-a-tat at the window *knock knock* (at the window) Who's there? (hunger) oh, hunger!! See how love flies out the door... |
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| re: A bit disingenuous, no? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 04:23 am EDT 09/01/18 | |
| In reply to: A bit disingenuous, no? - Billhaven 02:53 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
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| Good point. But the chorus is more repetitive and less interesting than "Sitting Pretty" to me. | |
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| re: A bit disingenuous, no? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:31 am EDT 09/01/18 | |
| In reply to: re: A bit disingenuous, no? - KingSpeed 04:23 am EDT 09/01/18 | |
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| ...and during one of those patter sections, there's that "ooh, money money money" riff going on in the background. More repetition. To try to succinctly and rationally make the point I was trying to yesterday - Many songs rely on some small sense of repetition, because that's how song form is built. Titles get repeated, or key phrases, or, lists get built so that there's a sense of formal unity in a refrain for the audience to grab onto quickly. That's incredibly common, and nothing extraordinary. "Sitting Pretty" makes use of some of that. IMO, there's no more sense of repetition in that song than in many a typical standard. "Money Makes The World Go Round" happens to be a terrific song that is built largely on constant, insistent repetition - right from the way that literal consecutive repetitions of one single phrase make up most of the chorus. The repetition of the word "money" pervades the song as a mantra. And not only is "money" a counterpoint to the first patter section as I noted above, but the 2nd patter section is done as a round, so the words are being repeated just after we've heard them in counterpoint fashion. (And although the main lyrics in the patter sections are not built on deliberate repetition, the music to those sections relies on short repetitive phrases, figures., and sequences.) "Sitting Pretty" is a very typical standard AABA song, using expected elements of long-form repetition as many/most songs do. "Money Makes The World Go Round" is built on a more complicated structure, and the lyric relies on much more prevalent and extraordinary small-form use of repetition (i.e. the same words or phrases literally repeated over and over next to each other). The song's veritable building block is repetition, in a way that most songs are NOT built. Auf wiedersehn, A bientot, (drumroll out). ;-) |
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| Precisely. nm | |
| Last Edit: KingSpeed 07:04 pm EDT 09/01/18 | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 07:03 pm EDT 09/01/18 | |
| In reply to: re: A bit disingenuous, no? - Chromolume 11:31 am EDT 09/01/18 | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 07:41 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:30 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Chazwaza 07:15 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
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| but I cannot understand how you think that the film song's lyrics are repetitive but "Sitting Pretty"'s lyrics are not... have you looked at them recently? They are literally repetitive. Have YOU looked at them recently? They're not - literally or otherwise. The difference between a refrain that starts with: "Money makes the world go around, The world go around, The world go around, Money makes the world go around" And the refrain for Sitting Pretty, that relies on a simpler (and very typical) standard "32-bar" AABA form (with the bridge to the end repeated after the dance sequence, plus a few repeated extensions along the way, in and out of the dance breaks) Is huge. There is *musical* repetition in the A sections of Sitting Pretty, (the A sections are built on a 3-time musical phrase followed by the "but me, I'm sitting pretty" part) but the only repetitive lyrics within any section are the "has money" in the first A, and that's only sung twice. (Yes, the "sitting pretty" part gets sung in each A section, but that's true of any number of songs that follow a standard pattern - that's much less about "repetition" for its own sake than it is about how song structure is built. Don't confuse song form with extra repetition. Look at, say, "Someone To Watch Over Me" or "Can't Help Lovin' That Man" etc. Or even other songs in this same show. That's a standard kind of repetition in most songs of this form. Nothing unique for the song.) "The Money Song" is literally a much much much much more repetitive lyric than "Sitting Pretty" by any and all possible standards, no dispute possible. (And we haven't even talked about the endless chants of "money money money" in the Money song, etc.) Sorry... And for the record, I like both songs. But looking that the way the lyrics are built in both. "The Money Song" RELIES on repetition as one of its prime building blocks. much more than most songs. "Sitting Pretty" is as typically simple AABA and not any more repetitive than you'd expect with any other standard song of that form. I'm not sure how you can see it any differently. |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 03:19 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:08 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Chromolume 07:30 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
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| Not only are you wrong in your assertion that Sitting Pretty doesn't have any repetitive lyrics, which was the point I was making, but the aggressive and dismissive tone of your post (not to mention to absurdity of stating that there's no other way to see something before you've even heard the other person's take - what kind of discussion could possibly come from that?) makes it not worth responding to thoughtfully... except to say that not only do lyrics in the song repeat but the entire song is one thought repeated over and over with mostly new and yes clever lyrics (WITH SOME REPETITION), whereas "Money, Money" builds and expands on the idea of poverty and life with money vs life without money. Yes the chorus is very repetitive by design it would seem, but the chorus is hardly the whole song. My point was that both songs have repetition in their lyrics. And I don't understand repetition being the criticism of "Money Money" (given how comparatively not repetitive it is in the verses) while the implication is that "Sitting Pretty" is not repetitive and that's one of its strengths. Not only do I not agree because it's literally not true that one is and one isn't repetitive, but I think the kind of repetition in Sitting Pretty outweighs, for me, the kind in Money Money. I think "Money Money" is a better song lyrically because of what I just said. I like Sitting Pretty and I like the concept of the selfish but happy view the Emcee has ("but me, I'm sitting pretty") but the song does nothing with that besides state it several times, it doesn't expand on it or twist it or do anything clever with it nor does it make any kind of relevant impact and outside of the Emcee's (mildly) relevant POV expressed in the song, ALL the rest of the lyrics are just quick cute examples of people he knows struggling financially. That is repetitive even beyond the actual section of repeated lyrics that come later in the song (if you don't believe me feel free to look it up). And that ridiculous musical break music also isn't helping the song's case. And now I've gone and responded thoughtfully despite not even meaning to. And YES I had looked at both songs before discussing them... did you? Never mind, don't answer, I'm not interested in debating this with you with that attitude. |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 04:14 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:14 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Chazwaza 03:08 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
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| Wow. :-( | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: TheOtherOne 06:36 am EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - KingSpeed 01:35 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| Sigh. I would love to see Cabaret revived with its original book and score. | |
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| Me too | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 05:18 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - TheOtherOne 06:36 am EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| Table 7 calling number 9. How are you Mister? Danke fine! Sitting all alone like that.... | |
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| re: Me three nmi | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 07:15 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: Me too - KingSpeed 05:18 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:03 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - KingSpeed 01:35 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| I also have never gotten the love for "Money Makes the World Go Round." It works in the movie because of what can be done in the movies. I can't help but think that Fosse probably asked them to write a song that wasn't really interesting on its own so that he could do his stuff with it. I think it's pretty much a dud in stage productions. | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 07:07 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - AlanScott 02:03 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| I love the song on its own. I don't get why it's a dud to you - does Sitting Pretty work any better to you? And if so, why? | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 01:17 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Chazwaza 07:07 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
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| I just find the original "Money Song" (aka "Sitting Pretty") a bit more interesting than "Money, Money" (aka "Money" and "Money Makes the World Go Round"). I get tired of the repetitions in the latter. I'm not saying it's not skillfully written for the staging in the movie. But when it comes down to it, I'm not particularly going to bat for either song as one of Kander and Ebb's best. Maybe I don't especially like the movie song onstage because I didn't much like the Mendes-Marshall production, and the mix of the two songs in the 1987 production didn't work too well either. |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 05:19 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - AlanScott 02:03 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| "I also have never gotten the love for 'Money Makes the World Go Round.' It works in the movie because of what can be done in the movies." Interesting. What is it about the number as filmed that you feel can be done in the movies but not on stage? I assume people like the number because the melody is catchy, the lyrics are clever, and also I think people like the way part of the song is sung as a "round" (I guess that's what you'd call it). But maybe you would find the number worked better in the stage version if it had been retained as a duet between Sally and the M.C., rather than as a number for the M.C. with the women's chorus. |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 01:54 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Michael_Portantiere 05:19 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| I would think that the number can be done onstage as it's done in the movie. You just don't get the camera giving you closeups and cuts and angles that make it seem more interesting than I think it would seem onstage. | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:31 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - AlanScott 01:54 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| Except, as I noted below, it would have to go somewhere else in the sequence of the show, when Sally is actually working at the club. ;-) | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:45 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Chromolume 02:31 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| But that gets into the question of whether these numbers are meant be perceived as happening in any sort of reality. In the movie, that number seems meant to be perceived as a real number being actually performed in the club. In the original production, though, those numbers weren't meant to be perceived that way (or were at least meant to be ambiguous). So Sally, not being also a metaphorical character (unlike the Master of Ceremonies, who was both real and metaphorical), wasn't in any of them until the middle of "Cabaret." But in the Mendes/Marshall production and most of the major productions that have followed it . . . And . . . this is not something I can talk about any more today. |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:52 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - AlanScott 02:45 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| So Sally, not being also a metaphorical character (unlike the Master of Ceremonies, who was both real and metaphorical), wasn't in any of them until the middle of "Cabaret. Got it - but (when you feel you can come back to the subject lol) wasn't "Don't Tell Mama" performed in the club? (Which is of course where she meets Cliff, then later insinuates, in his room, that Max fired her?) Just a little confused... |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 03:01 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Chromolume 02:52 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| "Don't Tell Mama" was not meant to be a metaphorical number. It was a real number performed in the real cabaret, not the metaphorical cabaret that represents Germany. | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 03:24 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 03:18 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - AlanScott 03:01 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| Ah - ok - so "Mama" is really the only "real" number Sally performs (in the original version of the musical), "Cabaret" being more in the metaphorical club? That does make sense. And in fact, in a recent Boston production I saw, that's exactly what the latter song felt like, and it worked really well. | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:21 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Chromolume 03:18 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| Well, "Cabaret," in the original staging, started in the real cabaret, and then the real cabaret disappeared, as Sally stepped off the stage and the tinsel curtain came down, and she walked through it while singing into the downstage area in front of the curtain. This was the metaphorical cabaret area where "Two Ladies," "The Money Song," and "If You Could See Her" were also performed. Sally's move occurred after the Elsie section, when the pizzicato accompaniment started. By this point she had moved off the cabaret stage but was still in the literal cabaret set, singing at the bar in front of the stage. "Don't Tell Mama" was performed within the set that represented the literal Kit Kat Klub, which included a literal stage. "Tomorrow Belongs to Me" and the kickline were also performed downstage but in front of the famous row of lights, while "Wilkommen" and the finale utilized the entire stage with the mirror. The rest of the show, apart from these sections, was performed in representational or semi-represenational sets. |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:30 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - AlanScott 04:21 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| I wonder, though, how clear a distinction -- if any --there was meant to be between the numbers performed in the real cabaret and in the metaphorical cabaret. Is this made clear in the stage directions in the script? As for the staging, perhaps certain numbers were performed downstage not necessarily to indicate a metaphorical cabaret area, but to leave the upstage area free for set-changing purposes? | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:46 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Michael_Portantiere 04:30 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| It's not indicated in the published script, but it was most definitely intentional on the part of Hal Prince and it was worked out with Boris Aronson, Jean Rosenthal and Ron Field. He believed that when Sally crossed from the "real world" into the "limbo area" (Prince's terms) during the title song, the audience understood. I'm not sure they did, but he felt they did. He wrote about this in Contradictions and I think it's all in Sense of Occasion, and it's been written about in other books. | |
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| what no one has mentioned | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 07:51 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - AlanScott 04:46 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| when the original show opened the best known performers were Lenya and Gilford. Grey was Mr Understudy, Haworth was best known from film and TV, not stage, and Convy from Fiddler. The show was not around star. The film was. Stars and featured performers don't get the same kind of material. The Money song in the film is for two stars, Money Makes the world go 'Round, is for a supporting player with backup. | |
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| re: what no one has mentioned | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:08 pm EDT 09/01/18 | |
| In reply to: what no one has mentioned - StageDoorJohnny 07:51 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
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| I think you got the titles mixed up, which is easy to do because they do get confusing, especially since they have been known by different titles in different productions. "Money Song" was the original title for the stage version, and "Money, Money" was the title listed on the soundtrack LP for the film, but the Broadway playbills for the Mendes-Marshall production listed it as "Money," while many call it "Money Makes the World Go Round." People sometimes call the original stage version "Sitting Pretty," perhaps because "Money Song" might refer to either version, while "Sitting Pretty" makes it clear which they mean. Anyway, I don't necessarily agree that the original stage version is for a supporting player with backup. The movie song is for two stars, but mostly because they were two stars. If it would have made sense for Sally to do it in the stage version, it could have been done by Haworth and Grey (although she probably would have needed easy choreography). Grey had replaced Warren Berlinger in Come Blow Your Horn and did it for eight or nine months, and he took over in Stop the World for the last three months of the Broadway run. This was after he had toured the latter, paired with Julie Newmar, for around six months all over the country. So I think he was thought of as a replacement guy more than an understudy. He spelled Tommy Steele when Steele took a week's vacation from Sixpence, but I'm not sure he was ever the standby. He may have been an unlisted standby for a while. Of course, he'd also done The Littlest Revue for the Phoenix, various Yiddish or Yiddish-flavored revues with his dad (all over the place), and he'd done stuff around the country, including Og in Finian's Rainbow more than once. |
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| re: what no one has mentioned | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 05:21 pm EDT 09/01/18 | |
| In reply to: re: what no one has mentioned - AlanScott 05:08 pm EDT 09/01/18 | |
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| I think you got the titles mixed up, which is easy to do because they do get confusing, especially since they have been known by different titles in different productions. "Money Song" was the original title for the stage version, and "Money, Money" was the title listed on the soundtrack LP for the film, but the Broadway playbills for the Mendes-Marshall production listed it as "Money," while many call it "Money Makes the World Go Round." People sometimes call the original stage version "Sitting Pretty," perhaps because "Money Song" might refer to either version, while "Sitting Pretty" makes it clear which they mean. FYI - the published version of the score (i.e. the original 1966 version of the show), and the Tams script for that version, do contain the title "Sitting Pretty." There is no mention of anything called "The Money Song" even though I know it has also been called that. |
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| re: what no one has mentioned | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:19 pm EDT 09/01/18 | |
| In reply to: re: what no one has mentioned - Chromolume 05:21 pm EDT 09/01/18 | |
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| Thanks. I think I had seen at some point that it was called "Sitting Pretty" in the published score and the Tams script, but it certainly has also been called "The Money Song." It was called "The Money Song" in the playbill for the original production, on the cast recording of the original production (LP and CD issues), in the program for the London production, and on the cast recording of that production (LP and CD issues), and in the published script. It's one of those oddities, but certainly most people who saw Cabaret in one of the incarnations of the original production or had the OBCR or the OLCR would have known it as "The Money Song," and even now on the CD issues it's called that. So it seems to me that it's probably more widely known as "The Money Song," for whatever that's worth. | |
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| "The Money Song" in the film version | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 06:35 pm EDT 09/01/18 | |
| In reply to: re: what no one has mentioned - AlanScott 06:19 pm EDT 09/01/18 | |
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| In one scene, Cliff, Sally and Max dance together on music from a Gramophone. The music they are dancing to is "The Money Song." (No lyrics). On the HIP-O LP release of the film's soundtrack, that track is called "Sitting Pretty." | |
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| re: what no one has mentioned | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 04:27 am EDT 09/01/18 | |
| In reply to: what no one has mentioned - StageDoorJohnny 07:51 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
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| Your post made me look up Joel Grey on IBDB because I had never thought about what he had done before Cabaret. Wow. His Broadway career goes back to 1951!! | |
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| re: what no one has mentioned | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:02 am EDT 09/01/18 | |
| In reply to: re: what no one has mentioned - KingSpeed 04:27 am EDT 09/01/18 | |
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| Joel Grey did regional theatre in the 40's and had small roles in a couple of 50's movie musicals. He did a lot of TV work prior to Cabaret including the title role in a musical version of Jack and the Beanstalk(in '56) with Leora Dana, Cyril Ritchard, Celeste Holm, and Dennis King. He even played Spring Byington's nephew (I think) Jimmy during the '57 season of December Bride. In any case even though his roles were always small, he was instantly recognizable and amazingly talented. He would have been perfect as Wykeham in the '52 film version of Where's Charley? if Warner Bros. had had the foresight to take a chance and cast him (since he was hardly an unknown quantity in the entertainment world). After all they did make Doris Day the lead in her first film based on her prowess as a big band singer. |
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| re: what no one has mentioned | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:23 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
| In reply to: re: what no one has mentioned - BroadwayTonyJ 09:02 am EDT 09/01/18 | |
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| I think Joel Grey in the title role of WHERE'S CHARLEY? back in the day is an excellent idea in terms of his talent and his suitability for the role, but I think it's beyond the bounds of all reality that it would have ever entered the minds of any Warner Bros. executives to cast him in that role in the film version in 1952. (Really not the same situation as Doris Day, I would say.) | |
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| re: what no one has mentioned | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 07:58 am EDT 09/03/18 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 07:52 am EDT 09/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: what no one has mentioned - Michael_Portantiere 10:23 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
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| Oh, I know -- I was just in a fanciful mood (again) when I did that post. I guess being the son of Mickey Katz doesn't open as many doors as being the daughter of Judy Garland. It's too bad Borscht Capades wasn't a big hit on Broadway. Still Grey was cast as Bender, a showy role in the '52 Warners musical About Face -- his performance is the only thing worth mentioning in that awful film. I was watching Where's Charley? this morning. Although he is charming in the "Once in Love with Amy" sequence, the 48-year old Bolger is laughably (actually grotesquely) cast as a college student -- he looks like his roommate's father. He's even 7 years older then Margaretta Scott, who plays his aunt. Maybe if Warners had reconceived the film as a vehicle for Doris Day (as Amy) and Gene Nelson (as Jack), it would have allowed them to cast someone as relatively unknown (but talented and age appropriate) as Joel Grey in the title role. I'm sure that would have made Loesser happy, and most likely the film would be less obscure today. Although Day might have come across a bit like a Mrs. Robinson-type (a role which I believe she would be considered for some years later). |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 11:28 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Michael_Portantiere 05:19 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| I think the melody of "Sitting Pretty" is catchier. It's just a more fun to song. To me. | |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 10:30 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:28 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - Michael_Portantiere 05:19 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| But maybe you would find the number worked better in the stage version if it had been retained as a duet between Sally and the M.C., rather than as a number for the M.C. with the women's chorus. The problem is, at this point in the show, Sally isn't working at the club. So it would be rather hard for her to be performing a duet there with the MC...;-) ...which is, I'm sure, why she doesn't sing it in the show context. ;-) |
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| re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 02:24 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - AlanScott 02:03 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| I have what I guess would be considered a rare recording of some sort of town hall evening with Kander and Ebb playing and singing their own songs and telling stories about them. It was recorded sometime before the original Chicago opened because they presented an early version of the song Roxie from their “upcoming project”. On that recording they say Money Makes the World Go Round was written because Fosse thought the audience would like to see Joel and Liza sing something together. Since they do not in the stage version. Assuming that is correct, there’s the reason! Of course when it was interpolated into the revival Sally was no longer a participant. I like the way they used to further the smuggling plot point. | |
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| "Money, Money" | |
| Posted by: RobertC (robertcollier930@gmail.com) 02:42 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
| In reply to: re: When a musical is revived, should it be influenced by its film version? - EvFoDr 02:24 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| That is fascinating stuff! Just to double check, I reviewed all the revival recordings of Cabaret, and none have the Emcee and Sally do "Money, Money" as a duet, as in the film. All the stage revivals have the Emcee performing the song alone. | |
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