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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Posted by: jgerard 12:39 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - Clancy 12:15 pm EDT 08/29/18 | |
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| Does anyone else think it's odd that Ain't Misbehavin' – for my money, the best jukebox musical ever – doesn't even rate a mention in this navel scratcher of a piece? Or, now that I think of it, Julie Taymor's amazing Across The Universe? | |
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| Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 08:09 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - jgerard 12:39 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| That's why they didn't mention it. It's a revue. Big difference. Just like Smokey Joe's Cafe isn't a jukebox either. | |
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| Weird things in that talk | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:28 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
| In reply to: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical - KingSpeed 08:09 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| Well, it's Smokey's Joe's that starts the discussion, although Jesse Green then says that it's "only a jukebox in the most rudimentary sense." Which I think is not a good way of putting it. SCOTT HELLER Jesse, it was nice seeing “Smokey Joe’s Cafe” with you the other night. Am I right that we both left with our heads spinning? I almost think you became a convert to the joys of the jukebox musical! JESSE GREEN Nothing could cause that conversion, but then “Smokey Joe’s” is only a jukebox in the most rudimentary sense. It is not, like many of these shows, biographical; it does not apply an invented story to an existing song catalog; it does not pour sanctimony and Brylcreem over the top. It’s a revue — and, as I was surprised to find — a good one. The singers were sensational and were allowed to do what sensational singers can: Make drama out of their voices. And then we soon have this: ELISABETH VINCENTELLI Is it worth starting with how we define the jukebox musical? You could argue that there are lots of Sondheim jukebox musicals, but they are usually called “revues,” which is a way to avoid a certain stigma. GREEN Note, though, that those are jukeboxes of songs written for the theater. It's puzzling that Green doesn't then say, "Right. Those are revues." And that Vincentelli perhaps doesn't even truly get the difference. She seems to be suggesting that the word revues is used at least partly to avoid a certain stigma. Which is kind of ignorant as they were being called revues before anyone seems to have used the term jukebox musical. Isn't there another term that's occasionally used for such shows? Something like "catalog shows?" I do think there should be a term to differentiate shows like Side by Side by Sondheim and Ain't Misbehavin' from the old-fashioned type of revues that we almost never see nowadays (e.g., The Band Wagon, As Thousands Cheer, all those Ziegfeld Follies, New Faces and Scandals)? |
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| re: Weird things in that talk | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 05:16 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 05:07 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
| In reply to: Weird things in that talk - AlanScott 04:28 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
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| Isn't there another term that's occasionally used for such shows? Something like "catalog shows?" I do think there should be a term to differentiate shows like Side by Side by Sondheim and Ain't Misbehavin' from the old-fashioned type of revues that we almost never see nowadays (e.g., The Band Wagon, As Thousands Cheer, all those Ziegfeld Follies, New Faces and Scandals)? I've occasionally heard people refer to them as "songbook revues" or "songbook shows." Most people in my experience, especially those also in the biz, tend to simply call them "revues." I've honestly never seen why jukebox shows can't be called revues (i.e. "jukebox revues") on the occasions that they are in fact presented in a revue format. Seems to me that jukebox shows with books are book shows, and jukebox shows with no book (or just simple narration, like it is in Side By Side) are revues, just the same way that shows with "traditional" theatre scores would be referred to in the same way. I still feel that what defines a jukebox show is the specific style and origin of the music being used - not the overall format of the show. Then, of course, there's the question of "reviews [sic]" - like Putting It Together - A Musical Review (I've heard various stories that the seeming misspelling was either exactly that - or that it was deliberate), or a play like Groucho - A Life In Review (which has enough songs in it to almost feel like a revue, except that I do think here the word "review" is being used more literally as looking back thorugh Groucho's story. But maybe it's meant to be a bit of a double meaning.) Or - comparing shows like Cole (the British revue that, to its detriment, IMO, uses bits of Zelda and F. Scott Fitzgerald to "narrate" an otherwise wall-to-wall evening of songs) to a very odd piece called Red, Hot And Cole which is a revue of songs couched in a fictional "party" with Porter and his iconic buddies like Monty Wooley and Elsa Maxwell. With horribly unimaginative bland song arrangements. The latter show tries to sorta be a book show, but it still ultimately feels like a revue of Porter songs. (The "book scenes" as I recall are really there to highlight the songs and get from one song to another - and much less to tell any particular story, let alone offer a viable plot.) In any case, to me, the very fine Smokey Joe's Cafe is a "jukebox revue." Your millage may vary. Whatever it is, it's a very fun show. |
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| re: Weird things in that talk | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 11:17 am EDT 09/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Weird things in that talk - Chromolume 05:07 pm EDT 09/02/18 | |
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| "I've honestly never seen why jukebox shows can't be called revues (i.e. 'jukebox revues') on the occasions that they are in fact presented in a revue format." That's how I think of them, except I wouldn't use the word jukebox. I think of Smokey Joe's Café as simply a revue or a songbook show, not a jukebox anything. I understand why people use the word in describing it, but I wouldn't use it. |
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| re: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 10:09 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:03 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical - KingSpeed 08:09 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| See, it's funny - I think that Smokey Joe's Cafe IS a jukebox musical, because the music is the rock and roll catalogue of Lieber and Stoller. I don't think there's any reason why a jukebox show can't be in a revue format. To me, Ain't Misbehavin' isn't a jukebox show mainly because the term has usually been applied to shows featuring non-theatre music of the rock era - but Ain't Misbehavin's music not only pre-dates that era, but some of the songs were indeed written for shows. It has nothing to do with the show's structure - it's the music used in it. |
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| re: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical | |
| Last Edit: ryhog 01:59 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:56 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical - Chromolume 10:03 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| A few thoughts... First, I think the term jukebox is more or less contemporaneous with the early days of rock and roll. (There were of course earlier coin-ops but I don't think they were called jukeboxes, were they? Second, I of course agree that the structure of a show is irrelevant. Third, I also agree that Ain't Misbehaving would not fit the model, but I think the reason is a little broader. Jukebox musicals exist (unfortunately in my view) because there was a perceived need to get folks into theatre seats with music that resonated for them (i.e., that was popular) because the music being written for the theatre stopped being popular (coincidentally around the time jukeboxes started being a thing). That makes no sense for Ain't Misbehavin' because Fats Waller was writing his songs at a time when there was no such distinction. (Edit: I hadn't seen your (earlier) post below that basically says the same thing. I think we are in substantial agreement.) | |
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| re: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:09 pm EDT 08/31/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Ain't Misbehavin isn't a jukebox musical - ryhog 01:56 am EDT 08/31/18 | |
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| Yes. ;-) And you mentioned something which I always feel is true, but didn't really express - which is that I agree that jukebox musicals are designed for the audiences who will recognize and celebrate all the big hit tunes they already know, and ride on the specific nostalgia of that singer/composer/group and their songs. Ain't Misbehavin' does feature some familiar songs, but many of them were not so well-known at the time, and some of the arrangements (for instance, the vocalese lyrics for Fats' original piano solo "Handful Of Keys") were written/conceived just for the occasion. The show was a celebration of all things Fats Waller, but not in the current way that jukebox shows do it. |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 03:06 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - jgerard 12:39 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| I think it comes down to whether you think that "jukebox musical" is the right term for the show. I'm not sure it is. Some of those songs were actually written for Broadway shows, and I also tend to think of "jukebox shows" as being more rock/pop oriented - Waller's music was "pop" in his day, but somehow it feels like a different kind of musical "catalogue" lol. I know we may all have different opinions on what "jukebox" covers and what it doesn't. But I would definitely agree that the show itself is a huge benchmark. So well-conceived and so classy - and so much fun. (And no matter how many times I hear that arrangement of "Black And Blue" - it always gets me emotional. And then to be topped by that whole finale sequence...just perfection.) |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:41 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - Chromolume 03:06 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| "I know we may all have different opinions on what 'jukebox' covers and what it doesn't. " Absolutely, plus I think AIN'T MISBEHAVIN' is best classified as a revue, and many people make a pretty strong distinction between (1) revues, and (2) shows that take old songs and put them into some new narrative context. In debating this broad subject, it's wise to remember that many of these shows are different from the others in important ways. JERSEY BOYS, BEAUTIFUL, LENNON, RING OF FIRE, HEAD OVER HEELS, MAMMA MIA!, MOVIN' OUT, and CONTACT are only a few examples of shows that have major differences between each other even though they might all fit under the very large umbrella of the "jukebox musical." |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 08:12 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - Michael_Portantiere 04:41 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| I wouldn't consider CONTACT a jukebox musical. It's a play with music and dance. I didn't have a problem with it winning a Tony though. It was the best show that season. | |
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| re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 10:24 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:24 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley, Green & Vincentelli Discuss Jukebox Musicals - KingSpeed 08:12 pm EDT 08/30/18 | |
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| I wouldn't consider CONTACT a jukebox musical. It's a play with music and dance. And the only rock/pop music is in the last sequence in the club. Not enough to qualify it as a jukebox score, IMO. To me, the show is a very expensive dance recital, with the boombox hooked up to a Broadway sound system, and done in a theatre instead of a dance studio. ;-) |
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