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| Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: ianx73 07:02 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| I noticed a couple of interesting changes in the Chorus Line dialogue When Judy Turner introduces herself instead of saying "my real name is Lana Turner..just kidding", she says Tina Turner Val's lyric in And about being "tied up and raped at 7" has been changed (can't remember the new lyric) Smart move I think Strangest of all in the "what happens when you can't dance anymore" sequence Shelia is supposed to say "well hell I'm 30, This performance she said "well, hell, I'm 40" She still says in the introduction the famous "i"m going to be 30 real soon and I'm real glad" Did Leigh Zimmerman make a mistake? Any other changes people noticed? |
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| re: About the lines about Sheila's age ... | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 04:09 pm EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - ianx73 07:02 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| Leigh Zimmerman, who played Sheila (wonderfully!) in this production, is closer to 50, than to 30 - hard to believe, but true. IMDB gives here birth year as 1969. I took the two lines in this production to clearly be a) Sheila being sassy when she said she was going to be 30 real soon - 30 was clearly in the past ... b) and hell, I'm 40 became her admitting her (in the production) real age. Seemed like a simple and classy way to have it both ways. | |
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| re: Leigh Zimmerman | |
| Posted by: Dale 11:00 pm EST 11/24/18 | |
| In reply to: re: About the lines about Sheila's age ... - NewtonUK 04:09 pm EST 11/22/18 | |
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| It was great to see her back on a NYC stage and she was perfect! | |
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| re: About the lines about Sheila's age ... | |
| Posted by: sirpupnyc 09:52 pm EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: re: About the lines about Sheila's age ... - NewtonUK 04:09 pm EST 11/22/18 | |
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| I've always taken "and I'll be 30 real soon" as "I'm not telling you my age (but I'm over 30)". | |
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| tied up etc. and Val | |
| Posted by: bobby2 09:58 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
| In reply to: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - ianx73 07:02 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| I can see why that line was changed nowadays BUT this to me points out one of the main things that a lot of Vals miss. She so often is played now as a sex kitten. (didn't see City Center's...was she there?) I think from what I've gathered from recordings and books is that Pamela Blair played her more as a provocateur (the girl in pigtails with the mouth of a truck driver.) Just saying tis and ass would have been shocking in 1975 for a girl like her. I think that playful quality makes the character work especially in the interactions with Sheila. Thoughts? |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: seeseveryshow 07:21 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
| In reply to: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - ianx73 07:02 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| I don't think it was a change, but rather a slight mistake at the Saturday Matinee. In Dance Ten, Looks Three, in the following verse, I recall Ms. Marcos sang: "Unless they're mine", instead of "Unless they're yours" it was noticeable because "mine" did not rhyme. No big deal in what was a memorable, triumphant performance of ACL. Had the bingo-bongos done Suddenly I'm getting national tours Tits and ass won't get you jobs Unless they're yours |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:12 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - seeseveryshow 07:21 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| Of course, we could also argue that "tours" and "yours" don't quite really rhyme, but that's a different conversation lol. | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 08:32 am EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 08:12 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| Even after reading below, I am still baffled how you would pronounce "tours" and "yours" without having them rhyme. | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:57 am EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - whereismikeyfl 08:32 am EST 11/22/18 | |
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| The vowels don't generally match up in colloquial speech. Toors vs. Yors. I think a lot of people would agree that a more "proper" pronunciation of "yours" honors the word "you" - i.e. Yoors, which would rhyme. But in plain speech most people don't do that. Well anyway, I think we can definitely all agree that "tours" and "mine" don't rhyme. ;-) Happy Thanksgiving! |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 09:23 am EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 08:57 am EST 11/22/18 | |
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| Maybe its because I grew up in the northeast, but I thought the colloquial, more common pronunciations was "yoors." And even if you did usually speak a more clipped "yors", the elongated note in the song would stretch it into "yooors." But I am no Henry Higgins, so what do I know? |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: davei2000 09:54 am EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - whereismikeyfl 09:23 am EST 11/22/18 | |
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| I'd like to think I speak colloquially and conversationally, and I say them both in the "flattened" way. It's more "natural," as stated elsewhere in the thread. It never occurred to me that I'm not honoring "you"...Maybe if I'm speaking French I'll elongate the vowel in "tour." I'm not usually speaking French...:) | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 10:23 am EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - davei2000 09:54 am EST 11/22/18 | |
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| I am not sure what "flattened" means. I pronounce yours and tours to rhyme with Coors (as in beer). She pronounced "tour" as if it were "turd" without the "d" at the end. So now I am going to fixated on how people pronounce "tours" and "yours" and trying to figure out if you can describe how they speak as "flattened." Thank you, ATC. |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 10:41 am EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - whereismikeyfl 10:23 am EST 11/22/18 | |
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| I deleted a sentence above where I said I talked to my neighbor this morning and she pronounced tours as if it were turd with an s instead of a d. I will never be able to follow the conversation at Thanksgiving today, since I will be listening for pronunciation. |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Last Edit: davei2000 11:50 am EST 11/22/18 | |
| Posted by: davei2000 11:46 am EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - whereismikeyfl 10:41 am EST 11/22/18 | |
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| I was using Chromolume's word, suggesting that it's like tor-yor. Tur sounds like squashing! But I'm sure - or is it shoor? - I use yur sometimes too in colloquial conversations... In any case it seems natural to me to make the words rhyme. Someone at ATC once complained that ballet is pronounced with different emphasis in different lines of "At the Ballet." That doesn't bother me, because I know I could pronounce it either - or i-ther! - way... |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 12:07 pm EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - davei2000 11:46 am EST 11/22/18 | |
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| ATC can really hang you up the most. | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:56 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 08:12 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| While they may not rhyme as everyone pronounces them, they do rhyme according to both Merriam-Webster online and dictionary.com, and they rhyme in Edith Skinner stage speech (both General American and Standard Stage). Well, dictionary.com gives three pronunciations for yours, and tours would rhyme with the first one they give, though not with the second and third ones. And you would have to pronounce tours as dictionary.com has it. Not everyone does, but both M-W and dictionary.com have it only one way. | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:14 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - AlanScott 08:56 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| Yes. In a perfect elocutionary way, absolutely. But would VAL say those words to rhyme them according to the dictionary? Given that everyone in A Chorus Line is essentially speaking in colloquial, conversational English, I tend to think not. ;-) That said, I've heard this song where the vowel in "tours" is flattened a bit to sound more like "tors" - in which case it does rhyme with the way most people say "yours" - but I don't think that's done in a deliberate attempt to rhyme it as much as it may be easier to sing that way, and or sound more natural when sung. ;-) |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:23 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 09:14 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| Ah, but Val is a trained dancer, and perhaps in college she also took Skinner as part of her training to be a stage performer. :) | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:08 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - AlanScott 09:23 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| Ha! Why not? ;-) | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:34 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 10:08 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| Btw, there are other examples in older lyrics of similar rhymes, and probably those specific rhymes, although I can't think of any off the top of my head. But because Little Me has been on my mind the last few days . . . Noble: I love you As much as I am able Considering I'm wealthy Considering you're poor Belle: That's very nice because I love you! . . . As much as I am able Considering your mother Considers me a boor— My passion will endure for you Noble: And I will always love you Belle: My heart I'll keep secure for you Noble: Though other girls are so far above you. And from another Little Me song: But you're unsure a lot You're a lot Like me. Do those bother you? Admittedly, "I Love You" is a comic song in which perhaps even Belle might be affecting an upper-class accent, but "I've Got Your Number" is certainly not a song in which the singer is affecting an upper-class accent. Carolyn Leigh was brilliant but not always particularly good at character stuff. Anyway, I'm just wondering if those bother you in any way. I think that even if it's become more colloquial nowadays to pronounce tours and yours to rhyme with doors and cores and to pronounce you're to rhyme with more, those weren't always necessarily the more common pronunciations, and as we see in this thread, not everyone agrees that they're more common even now. And A Chorus Line was a lot closer in time to Little Me than it is to 2018. In any case, I vowed a few years ago that I would try to avoid getting involved again in conversations here about rhyming and pronunciations because often people didn't like what I had to say — even someone who I know likes me insulted me once in one of those conversations — and the conversations would be endless. And yet here I am . . . Anyway, the whole concept of standard pronunciations is considered elitist nowadays. And that's fine. I don't necessarily disagree that the idea is a bit outdated, even as I wish Skinner was still being taught in theatre programs, if perhaps with some adjustments to get rid of stuff that just sounds odd nowadays (and probably always did). It's good to be able to do it, even if you then choose not to do it. But the very fact that the idea of standard pronunciations is now considered suspect and elitist perhaps means that we should consider any viable pronunciation to make a rhyme acceptable, even if the pronunciation may seem old-fashioned. Chances are some folks still say those words that way. It's a big country, and despite television, movies and radios, some folks still speak with very strong regional accents. And there are even some who speak with something like Skinner General American and perhaps a few who still speak with something like Skinner Standard Stage, and if we don't look down on people who speak with heavy accents that never would have been considered "standard," we shouldn't look down on people who do speak with those awful standard-sounding accents. I mean, people like me. :) |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:07 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - AlanScott 04:34 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
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| I agree that this kind of discussion can get contentious, but I do enjoy it, because I find language fun to look at in this way. In the Little Me examples, I think if Belle does sing "poor" with a rounded "oo" it makes the rhymes all work (even with the added "liquid u" implied in "endure" and "secure") - if she sings "poor" as Curly and Jud and many of us would, (i.e. "pore") than "boor" becomes "bore." :-) For "I've Got Your Number" I would think that "unshur" and "yur" would be appropriate for the song, so that works. ;-) |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:36 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 07:07 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
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| Yes, those all depend on the diphthongs being pronounced that way, and it used to be quite common. I think it still is pretty common, though not universal (and probably never was universal). | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: SRMHAYES 02:42 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 10:08 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| They RHYME fer Chrissakes!!!!! | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 03:55 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - SRMHAYES 02:42 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
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| Absolutely no reason on earth to shout. We were having a discussion. That's all. Thank you. | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: waterfall 10:25 am EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 10:08 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| "Ah, but Val is a trained dancer, and perhaps in college she also took Skinner as part of her training to be a stage performer. :)" Isn't Val only 18? She'd have to have attended college quite young. Val is a calculating character, but she never struck me as all that bright. (and yes, I know it was a joke. I just love that ATC can have such a long thread about a lyric). I was also happy to see Elaine Marcos, who was a cover Connie Wong in the revival, take over Val. Kind of like Michael Gruber, who as far as I know, was the only actor who was both in the original ACL and the revival |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: garyd 01:34 pm EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - waterfall 10:25 am EST 11/22/18 | |
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| Val is 25. She came to NYC at 18. | |
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