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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:56 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 08:12 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| While they may not rhyme as everyone pronounces them, they do rhyme according to both Merriam-Webster online and dictionary.com, and they rhyme in Edith Skinner stage speech (both General American and Standard Stage). Well, dictionary.com gives three pronunciations for yours, and tours would rhyme with the first one they give, though not with the second and third ones. And you would have to pronounce tours as dictionary.com has it. Not everyone does, but both M-W and dictionary.com have it only one way. | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:14 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - AlanScott 08:56 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| Yes. In a perfect elocutionary way, absolutely. But would VAL say those words to rhyme them according to the dictionary? Given that everyone in A Chorus Line is essentially speaking in colloquial, conversational English, I tend to think not. ;-) That said, I've heard this song where the vowel in "tours" is flattened a bit to sound more like "tors" - in which case it does rhyme with the way most people say "yours" - but I don't think that's done in a deliberate attempt to rhyme it as much as it may be easier to sing that way, and or sound more natural when sung. ;-) |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:23 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 09:14 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| Ah, but Val is a trained dancer, and perhaps in college she also took Skinner as part of her training to be a stage performer. :) | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:08 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - AlanScott 09:23 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| Ha! Why not? ;-) | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:34 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 10:08 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| Btw, there are other examples in older lyrics of similar rhymes, and probably those specific rhymes, although I can't think of any off the top of my head. But because Little Me has been on my mind the last few days . . . Noble: I love you As much as I am able Considering I'm wealthy Considering you're poor Belle: That's very nice because I love you! . . . As much as I am able Considering your mother Considers me a boor— My passion will endure for you Noble: And I will always love you Belle: My heart I'll keep secure for you Noble: Though other girls are so far above you. And from another Little Me song: But you're unsure a lot You're a lot Like me. Do those bother you? Admittedly, "I Love You" is a comic song in which perhaps even Belle might be affecting an upper-class accent, but "I've Got Your Number" is certainly not a song in which the singer is affecting an upper-class accent. Carolyn Leigh was brilliant but not always particularly good at character stuff. Anyway, I'm just wondering if those bother you in any way. I think that even if it's become more colloquial nowadays to pronounce tours and yours to rhyme with doors and cores and to pronounce you're to rhyme with more, those weren't always necessarily the more common pronunciations, and as we see in this thread, not everyone agrees that they're more common even now. And A Chorus Line was a lot closer in time to Little Me than it is to 2018. In any case, I vowed a few years ago that I would try to avoid getting involved again in conversations here about rhyming and pronunciations because often people didn't like what I had to say — even someone who I know likes me insulted me once in one of those conversations — and the conversations would be endless. And yet here I am . . . Anyway, the whole concept of standard pronunciations is considered elitist nowadays. And that's fine. I don't necessarily disagree that the idea is a bit outdated, even as I wish Skinner was still being taught in theatre programs, if perhaps with some adjustments to get rid of stuff that just sounds odd nowadays (and probably always did). It's good to be able to do it, even if you then choose not to do it. But the very fact that the idea of standard pronunciations is now considered suspect and elitist perhaps means that we should consider any viable pronunciation to make a rhyme acceptable, even if the pronunciation may seem old-fashioned. Chances are some folks still say those words that way. It's a big country, and despite television, movies and radios, some folks still speak with very strong regional accents. And there are even some who speak with something like Skinner General American and perhaps a few who still speak with something like Skinner Standard Stage, and if we don't look down on people who speak with heavy accents that never would have been considered "standard," we shouldn't look down on people who do speak with those awful standard-sounding accents. I mean, people like me. :) |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:07 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - AlanScott 04:34 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
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| I agree that this kind of discussion can get contentious, but I do enjoy it, because I find language fun to look at in this way. In the Little Me examples, I think if Belle does sing "poor" with a rounded "oo" it makes the rhymes all work (even with the added "liquid u" implied in "endure" and "secure") - if she sings "poor" as Curly and Jud and many of us would, (i.e. "pore") than "boor" becomes "bore." :-) For "I've Got Your Number" I would think that "unshur" and "yur" would be appropriate for the song, so that works. ;-) |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:36 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 07:07 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
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| Yes, those all depend on the diphthongs being pronounced that way, and it used to be quite common. I think it still is pretty common, though not universal (and probably never was universal). | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: SRMHAYES 02:42 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 10:08 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| They RHYME fer Chrissakes!!!!! | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 03:55 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - SRMHAYES 02:42 pm EST 11/23/18 | |
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| Absolutely no reason on earth to shout. We were having a discussion. That's all. Thank you. | |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: waterfall 10:25 am EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - Chromolume 10:08 pm EST 11/21/18 | |
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| "Ah, but Val is a trained dancer, and perhaps in college she also took Skinner as part of her training to be a stage performer. :)" Isn't Val only 18? She'd have to have attended college quite young. Val is a calculating character, but she never struck me as all that bright. (and yes, I know it was a joke. I just love that ATC can have such a long thread about a lyric). I was also happy to see Elaine Marcos, who was a cover Connie Wong in the revival, take over Val. Kind of like Michael Gruber, who as far as I know, was the only actor who was both in the original ACL and the revival |
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| re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center | |
| Posted by: garyd 01:34 pm EST 11/22/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Changes to Chorus Line at City Center - waterfall 10:25 am EST 11/22/18 | |
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| Val is 25. She came to NYC at 18. | |
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