Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Last Edit: LynnB 11:02 am EST 12/03/18 | |
| Posted by: LynnB 11:02 am EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| I was delighted to read this eminently intelligent defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside', a song I've always loved. It's a great response to the relatively recent and -- and in my view totally unwarranted -- charges that it's 'date-rapey'. P.S. I'm not looking to reopen a debate!! I just wanted to share a good analysis of old lyrics with a group that will appreciate it. |
|
| Link | http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/ |
| reply to this message | |
| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:31 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - LynnB 11:02 am EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| I'm responding generally to this whole thread, with the posts about the context of the song in mind in particular. I get that - that many people may only hear the song in a current light without considering anything else. But, for the rest of us - let's give Loesser some credit, for god's sake. When he wants to write a scene about a dark seduction/rape, he does - e.g. "Don't Cry" from The Most Happy Fella, where the dissonance and abrupt emotional shifts in the music tell us everything we need to know about the nature of Joey and Rosabella's story at that point. Compare that to the light and bouncy major-key quality of "Baby, It's Cold Outside" - this is not music that describes date rape, this is not about slipping a mickey in a girl's drink, this is not about "no means no." It's a clear flirting game between two people who clearly DO want to end up together. I just think it's a shame that we can't see and enjoy the cleverness and yes, the mature adult frankness in the song, as clearly intended - but instead it has to become an example of tone deafness in a #metoo world that Loesser wasn't living in. I understand that times change, and yes, that many people hearing the song don't have a reference point to compare it to, and can only hear it in an ultra-contemporary world. I just think it's a shame this song gets dumped on when it really shouldn't be. |
|
| reply to this message |
| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: Delvino 08:43 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - LynnB 11:02 am EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| Great analysis. The song is sexy when sung by two people of the same gender. (Yeah, I get it; the abuse potential is the same.) It's charmer, and when two men or two women sing it, the wolf aspect is diminished. Just my two cents, but affixing "rapey" to this iconic, cozy, willing-seduction ditty, is at best a misuse of our sociopolitical fervor. I said, "just my opinion," didn't I? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Why is no one objecting to "SANTA BABY"--which is much more sexist?!!!! | |
| Posted by: BillyG 04:40 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - LynnB 11:02 am EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| Or the countless rap/hip hop songs which portray women as sexual objects. Come on people. Really?!!!! |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Why is no one objecting to "SANTA BABY"--which is much more sexist?!!!! | |
| Last Edit: ntjvy 08:30 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| Posted by: ntjvy 08:29 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: Why is no one objecting to "SANTA BABY"--which is much more sexist?!!!! - BillyG 04:40 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| . . . the implication that there is no "no one objecting" to the countless "rap/hip-hop songs which portray women as sexual objects" is absurd. Google misogyny of rap music and you'll find that there's been a long, thoughtful, multifaceted compelling dialog that includes objection, criticism and analysis of the phenomena. And as always. . . when confronted with a criticism, pointing and yelling "But nobody is criticizing THOSE things over THERE" doesn't negate the initial criticism. If anything, it's a call to broaden the dialog. That said, I enjoy "Baby it's Cold Outside" and appreciate the interpretation of it above. But your logic, and inaccurate observations of other genres fall short. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Why is no one objecting to "SANTA BABY"--which is much more sexist?!!!! | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:44 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: Why is no one objecting to "SANTA BABY"--which is much more sexist?!!!! - BillyG 04:40 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| The objections to this song are not about sexism, but about implied coercion and assault, if that's your interpretation of what's happening in the lyrics. An appropriate person with whom to take up your pique at the changing way people view this song is Bill Cosby. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| or "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" which condones and lets bullies off the hook | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 05:33 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 05:31 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Why is no one objecting to "SANTA BABY"--which is much more sexist?!!!! - JereNYC 04:44 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| after making poor Rudolph feel terrible; in the cartoon he is even shamed into leaving home and putting himself into danger. While I feel empathy for Rudolph, I've always hated the line in the song that says "Then all the reindeer loved him" after Santa asked him to help guide his sleight. "Then?" Then they loved him? after they "used to laugh and call him names" and not let him take part in any reindeer games, all the crap they doled out to him when they couldn't use him. Screw them -- Rudolph should have gone into business for himself. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: WWriter 02:45 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - LynnB 11:02 am EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| Thanks so much for this. It's such an intelligent article. I particularly appreciate her dissection of "what's in this drink?" The context that she provides effectively proves that the woman is *not* singing about roofies. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 03:09 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - WWriter 02:45 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| The article was written in 2010 though, some 7 years before #metoo was a context that things were considered in. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Origins and textual analysis (longish) | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 05:57 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - Ncassidine 03:09 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| This is taken from a lengthy FB discussion of the song this weekend. Many here will know the song's origin, but I did a bit of textual analysis some may find interesting. In 1944, Frank Loesser had had modest success in Hollywood, but had not yet taken Broadway. He had written many popular war songs ("Rodger Young," "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition") as well. He and his first wife, Lynn, had just gotten a new place, and Frank wrote the song for them to perform at their housewarming. So it was not written for any show, but was a performance piece. She was "the Mouse," he was "the Wolf." So, yes, there was a certain predatory nature built into the song from the start, though I do not think it's the equivalent of rape. The Wolf is after the Mouse, but it's so staged, no one took it seriously. The song was an immediate hit. They performed it over and over and got invited to parties, just to sing it. As Lynn wrote, "It became our ticket to caviar and truffles." They sang it at parties on both coasts for several years and even recorded it. Then Frank sold it to the movies for NEPTUNE'S DAUGHTER. Lynn was devastated, betrayed. It was their special song and she adored performing it. But Frank said if he didn't let go of it, he'd start thinking he couldn't write another song as good. It won the Oscar, and he would go on to write WHERE'S CHARLEY? (actually debuted before NEPTUNE'S release), GUYS AND DOLLS, and HOW TO SUCCEED IN BUSINESS WITHOUT REALLY TRYING. I think the main thing "the Mouse" is concerned with isn't sex with "the Wolf," but her reputation if she spends the night with him. There clearly is something going on between them; late in the song, she says, "Say, lend me a comb." Excluding the lyrics they share (the title), the Mouse has 30 lines. Eight of them express worry about what her family or the neighbors will think. "But don't you see--there's bound to be talk tomorrow!" Five of them she's clearly enjoying herself. "This evening has been--so very nice." "the welcome has been--so nice and warm." And in six, she's saying she has to go. The Wolf has 13 lines referring to the weather, including the title phrase. Seven of his are compliments--and we progress from "Gosh, your lips look delicious" to "Gosh, your lips ARE delicious." (And following those are the lyrics I cited above in which the Mouse asks for a comb.) I certainly see where certain lyrics like "Say, what's in this drink?" and the Mouse insisting "The answer is no!" (which interestingly follows her earlier lyrics to herself, "I ought to say no, no, no, sir!") don't sit well in today's culture. The former makes one immediately think of roofies and date rape; the latter "No means no." And that makes sense. The percentage of theatre nerds and historians who seek out context are far outnumbered by the general populace hearing this tune in the mall. My eldest daughter squirms visibly hearing it; I enjoy it because I know it was written as a performance piece for a couple. But while today's culture rightly deplores men abusing women and using their power to attain sexual favors, we think little of an unmarried girl spending the night with an unmarried man. And I think that's just as central to the song's plot as the Wolf seducing the Mouse--yet nobody today, in the now annual criticisms of this song, ever mentions that aspect. Laura, who should be working |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 02:59 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - WWriter 02:45 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| Well, no...it was never about that...but, listening to the song in the 21st Century, especially in light of the #metoo movement, still makes the brain go to that place. I mean, how could it not? It's all very well and good to say "but in the appropriate context, blah blah blah...", but how many radio stations and albums and whatnot give the listener the appropriate context? What you actually hear when you listen to the song is one person trying to coerce another into doing something he or she does not want to do. And, in the course of that, the person being coerced asks "What's in this drink?" Considering that this is the exact story of, for example, Bill Cosby and many different women over the course of decades, what is the modern ear expected to hear? I get it. It's a great song. It's witty and funny and great...but I also get it when I hear people say that it's time to put it away, at least for awhile. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| How about... | |
| Posted by: SamIAm 05:47 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - JereNYC 02:59 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| Let's go back to 'You Can't Say No to a Soldier'...talk about shaming women into sex...'hey, this guy is going to war and might die, so just do it'. Really? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:04 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - JereNYC 02:59 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| "What you actually hear when you listen to the song is one person trying to coerce another into doing something he or she does not want to do. " With all due respect: Did you read the analysis? Hugely significant is the fact that the person in question DOES want to stay, but that person -- originally a woman, as the song was originally conceived -- protests that she can't (read: shouldn't stay) because of what other people will assume and think of her if she stays. Yes, if the person in question REALLY did not want to stay for her own reasons and according to her own wishes, and the other person kept trying to coerce her into staying anyway, THAT would be a very problematic song. But that's not a valid interpretation of what's happening in the song, as explained in that excellent analysis. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:25 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - Michael_Portantiere 04:04 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| Totally get what you're saying because I did read the analysis. But my point is...what about most of the people out there in the world listening to this song in 2018 who DIDN'T read the analysis? On a casual listen, I think it it's more likely that someone, without benefit of context set out by articles like this, would say that one person is trying to pressure another into doing something he/she doesn't want to do. I just don't think most people listen to their radios or Christmas albums and sit there and analyse what they are hearing. If they did, we'd hear a lot of less of MAME's "We Need A Little Christmas" at this time of year. So that's why, as terrific a song as this is, I understand when people find it icky in the face of #metoo and decide that it's time to retire it. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:32 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - JereNYC 04:25 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| "But my point is...what about most of the people out there in the world listening to this song in 2018 who DIDN'T read the analysis? On a casual listen, I think it it's more likely that someone, without benefit of context set out by articles like this, would say that one person is trying to pressure another into doing something he/she doesn't want to do." On this point, I completely agree with you. But I think that's a huge problem with the world today -- people over-reacting emotionally to something without exercising their intelligence to think it through and figure out if there's really anything for them to be upset about. Like the "gypsy" controversy. But I'm certainly not going to get into that... |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 03:27 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - JereNYC 02:59 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| I get it. It's a great song. It's witty and funny and great...but I also get it when I hear people say that it's time to put it away, at least for awhile. I agree. I enjoy the song, but don't begrudge anyone who thinks it should be shelved. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| the gays will take it | |
| Posted by: dramedy 04:32 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - MockingbirdGirl 03:27 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| let's have a version with two gay guys singing it. so metoo movement doesn't kill a classic. I doubt that the red states will listen to either version. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: the gays will take it | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:39 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: the gays will take it - dramedy 04:32 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| Not that this hasn't been done already (off the top of my head, Darren Criss and Chris Colfer sang it on GLEE), but if someone's reaction to the song is that it sounds, in the words of this article, "date-rapey," how does that change if the singers are both men? Or both women for that matter? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| because guys drink a lot | |
| Posted by: dramedy 04:53 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: the gays will take it - JereNYC 04:39 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| and for me, what's in this drink is asking how strong it since gay guys are more cocktails than beer. Some cocktails are strong and others aren't unlike beer and wine which is low alcohol content. As for Cosby statement above by you--watch the second episode of FutureMan on Hulu for a very funny 1969 take on cosby. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: because guys drink a lot | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 11:34 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:34 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: because guys drink a lot - dramedy 04:53 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| since gay guys are more cocktails than beer. Did you really just stereotype gay men by what you think they drink? Yes, you did. Wow. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: larry13 11:28 am EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - LynnB 11:02 am EST 12/03/18 | |
|
|
|
| Thank you for this article. One small correction to the date--"1936"--attributed in the piece. The song was written in 1944. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
Time to render: 0.054552 seconds.