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| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: WWriter 02:45 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - LynnB 11:02 am EST 12/03/18 | |
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| Thanks so much for this. It's such an intelligent article. I particularly appreciate her dissection of "what's in this drink?" The context that she provides effectively proves that the woman is *not* singing about roofies. | |
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| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 03:09 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - WWriter 02:45 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
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| The article was written in 2010 though, some 7 years before #metoo was a context that things were considered in. | |
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| Origins and textual analysis (longish) | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 05:57 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - Ncassidine 03:09 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
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| This is taken from a lengthy FB discussion of the song this weekend. Many here will know the song's origin, but I did a bit of textual analysis some may find interesting. In 1944, Frank Loesser had had modest success in Hollywood, but had not yet taken Broadway. He had written many popular war songs ("Rodger Young," "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition") as well. He and his first wife, Lynn, had just gotten a new place, and Frank wrote the song for them to perform at their housewarming. So it was not written for any show, but was a performance piece. She was "the Mouse," he was "the Wolf." So, yes, there was a certain predatory nature built into the song from the start, though I do not think it's the equivalent of rape. The Wolf is after the Mouse, but it's so staged, no one took it seriously. The song was an immediate hit. They performed it over and over and got invited to parties, just to sing it. As Lynn wrote, "It became our ticket to caviar and truffles." They sang it at parties on both coasts for several years and even recorded it. Then Frank sold it to the movies for NEPTUNE'S DAUGHTER. Lynn was devastated, betrayed. It was their special song and she adored performing it. But Frank said if he didn't let go of it, he'd start thinking he couldn't write another song as good. It won the Oscar, and he would go on to write WHERE'S CHARLEY? (actually debuted before NEPTUNE'S release), GUYS AND DOLLS, and HOW TO SUCCEED IN BUSINESS WITHOUT REALLY TRYING. I think the main thing "the Mouse" is concerned with isn't sex with "the Wolf," but her reputation if she spends the night with him. There clearly is something going on between them; late in the song, she says, "Say, lend me a comb." Excluding the lyrics they share (the title), the Mouse has 30 lines. Eight of them express worry about what her family or the neighbors will think. "But don't you see--there's bound to be talk tomorrow!" Five of them she's clearly enjoying herself. "This evening has been--so very nice." "the welcome has been--so nice and warm." And in six, she's saying she has to go. The Wolf has 13 lines referring to the weather, including the title phrase. Seven of his are compliments--and we progress from "Gosh, your lips look delicious" to "Gosh, your lips ARE delicious." (And following those are the lyrics I cited above in which the Mouse asks for a comb.) I certainly see where certain lyrics like "Say, what's in this drink?" and the Mouse insisting "The answer is no!" (which interestingly follows her earlier lyrics to herself, "I ought to say no, no, no, sir!") don't sit well in today's culture. The former makes one immediately think of roofies and date rape; the latter "No means no." And that makes sense. The percentage of theatre nerds and historians who seek out context are far outnumbered by the general populace hearing this tune in the mall. My eldest daughter squirms visibly hearing it; I enjoy it because I know it was written as a performance piece for a couple. But while today's culture rightly deplores men abusing women and using their power to attain sexual favors, we think little of an unmarried girl spending the night with an unmarried man. And I think that's just as central to the song's plot as the Wolf seducing the Mouse--yet nobody today, in the now annual criticisms of this song, ever mentions that aspect. Laura, who should be working |
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| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 02:59 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - WWriter 02:45 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
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| Well, no...it was never about that...but, listening to the song in the 21st Century, especially in light of the #metoo movement, still makes the brain go to that place. I mean, how could it not? It's all very well and good to say "but in the appropriate context, blah blah blah...", but how many radio stations and albums and whatnot give the listener the appropriate context? What you actually hear when you listen to the song is one person trying to coerce another into doing something he or she does not want to do. And, in the course of that, the person being coerced asks "What's in this drink?" Considering that this is the exact story of, for example, Bill Cosby and many different women over the course of decades, what is the modern ear expected to hear? I get it. It's a great song. It's witty and funny and great...but I also get it when I hear people say that it's time to put it away, at least for awhile. |
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| How about... | |
| Posted by: SamIAm 05:47 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - JereNYC 02:59 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
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| Let's go back to 'You Can't Say No to a Soldier'...talk about shaming women into sex...'hey, this guy is going to war and might die, so just do it'. Really? | |
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| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:04 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - JereNYC 02:59 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
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| "What you actually hear when you listen to the song is one person trying to coerce another into doing something he or she does not want to do. " With all due respect: Did you read the analysis? Hugely significant is the fact that the person in question DOES want to stay, but that person -- originally a woman, as the song was originally conceived -- protests that she can't (read: shouldn't stay) because of what other people will assume and think of her if she stays. Yes, if the person in question REALLY did not want to stay for her own reasons and according to her own wishes, and the other person kept trying to coerce her into staying anyway, THAT would be a very problematic song. But that's not a valid interpretation of what's happening in the song, as explained in that excellent analysis. |
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| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:25 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - Michael_Portantiere 04:04 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
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| Totally get what you're saying because I did read the analysis. But my point is...what about most of the people out there in the world listening to this song in 2018 who DIDN'T read the analysis? On a casual listen, I think it it's more likely that someone, without benefit of context set out by articles like this, would say that one person is trying to pressure another into doing something he/she doesn't want to do. I just don't think most people listen to their radios or Christmas albums and sit there and analyse what they are hearing. If they did, we'd hear a lot of less of MAME's "We Need A Little Christmas" at this time of year. So that's why, as terrific a song as this is, I understand when people find it icky in the face of #metoo and decide that it's time to retire it. |
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| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:32 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - JereNYC 04:25 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
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| "But my point is...what about most of the people out there in the world listening to this song in 2018 who DIDN'T read the analysis? On a casual listen, I think it it's more likely that someone, without benefit of context set out by articles like this, would say that one person is trying to pressure another into doing something he/she doesn't want to do." On this point, I completely agree with you. But I think that's a huge problem with the world today -- people over-reacting emotionally to something without exercising their intelligence to think it through and figure out if there's really anything for them to be upset about. Like the "gypsy" controversy. But I'm certainly not going to get into that... |
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| re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 03:27 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - JereNYC 02:59 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
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| I get it. It's a great song. It's witty and funny and great...but I also get it when I hear people say that it's time to put it away, at least for awhile. I agree. I enjoy the song, but don't begrudge anyone who thinks it should be shelved. |
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| the gays will take it | |
| Posted by: dramedy 04:32 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Listening while feminist: a defense of 'Baby, It's Cold Outside.' - MockingbirdGirl 03:27 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
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| let's have a version with two gay guys singing it. so metoo movement doesn't kill a classic. I doubt that the red states will listen to either version. | |
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| re: the gays will take it | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:39 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: the gays will take it - dramedy 04:32 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
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| Not that this hasn't been done already (off the top of my head, Darren Criss and Chris Colfer sang it on GLEE), but if someone's reaction to the song is that it sounds, in the words of this article, "date-rapey," how does that change if the singers are both men? Or both women for that matter? | |
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| because guys drink a lot | |
| Posted by: dramedy 04:53 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: re: the gays will take it - JereNYC 04:39 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
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| and for me, what's in this drink is asking how strong it since gay guys are more cocktails than beer. Some cocktails are strong and others aren't unlike beer and wine which is low alcohol content. As for Cosby statement above by you--watch the second episode of FutureMan on Hulu for a very funny 1969 take on cosby. |
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| re: because guys drink a lot | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 11:34 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:34 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
| In reply to: because guys drink a lot - dramedy 04:53 pm EST 12/03/18 | |
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| since gay guys are more cocktails than beer. Did you really just stereotype gay men by what you think they drink? Yes, you did. Wow. |
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