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| re: Can off-Broadway become viable again | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 07:42 am EST 12/26/18 | |
| In reply to: Can off-Broadway become viable again - Kerick 10:07 am EST 12/25/18 | |
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| Very difficult. Many have posted the various shifts in our business over the past 10-20 years. Back when off-broadway was born, there was almost only commercial off Broadway. People worked for beans doing work that didnt fit the Broadway mold. If your show happened to become a success - you could do well. Not get rich, but do well. But there were great writers writing for off Broadway. Today they still do, but they are writing for NYTW, The Public, The Vineyard, MTC, Lincoln Center, HERE, et al. Every one wants their show, justifiably, to have a protected run a not for profit with members and subscribers - a guaranteed base audience. In commercial off Broadway today, as always, you start from scratch. Through advertising and marketing and social media you have to try to make space for your show, against not only Broadway, but against all the well financed not for profits. The Public (5 Theatres) Roundabout (2 OB theatres) Manhattan Theatre Club (2 OB theatres) The Vineyard HERE (2 theatres) St Annes Warehouse Park Avenue Armory Second Stage The Atlantic (2 theatres) ARS NOVA (2 theatres) Lincoln Center Theatre (2 theatres) Signature Theatre (3 theatres) 59E59 (3 theatres) Primary Stages York Theatre Classic Stage Co Axis The Flea (2 theatres) The Mint (no fixed home) Soho Rep TFANA The New Victory Irish Rep (2 theatres) 39 theatres, subsidized, tooling along. If you want to do a commercial show, you need real estate. Where can you do your show today? New World Stages has the largest off Broadway venues. Which have become homes for Broadway shows that refuse to die. These theatres are almost never available to a producer who just wants to do a Broadway show. And after 92 years, I dont think Altar Boys ever recouped. The Duke will not take commercial tenants. Only one of the Theatre Row theatres will take a commercial tenant. Signature will not take a commercial tenant. The Connelly dioesnt take commerical tenants.The Davenport will but do you really want your show in those dumps? Westside Arts takes commercial tenants in both spaces, but success is elusive there these days. Gym at Judson is very difficult and expensive to use, and you usually cant perform on Mondays or Wednesdays, and they black out some weekends too, because there is no sound separation between the Gym and the Churhc above. Sheen Center isnt really a commercial venue. ARTNY doesnt take commercial runs. So .... where are you going to produce your commercial off Broadway show - which you are going to spend $1 million plus on for a play, $1,5-2.5 million for a musical. Westside arts (2 270 seat venues) Theatre Row (1 199 seat venue) New World (maybe the 199 might be available once in a while) The Davenport (150 and 90 seats) And we are almost out of off-Broadway venues that will contemplate a commercial run. Why, you may ask? Well - most off Broadway venues today have a model where you can only have 6-10 weeks, max. You have to pay your entire rent for the 6-10 weeks, plus a security deposit, before you can move in. At a 199 seat theatre you are paying about $12,000 a week. Do the math. You have to give them $96,000 + a deposit before you move in for an 8 week run. For the landlord its a great deal. You just stack up shows in 6-10 week increments and bank the money. Doesnt matter how well the shows do. What if you take a commercial show? The License Agreement calls for a 2 or 4 week notice of leaving. You make a deposit of 2-4 weeks rent + security deposit. You open. No one wants to see your show. Suddenly you give your 4 weeks notice. The landlord has to find another show, but no sane producer can open a show without 12-16 weeks advance notice - to start sales etc, But that would mean your theatre would be vacant for 8-12 weeks. That;s bad. So you continue to rent to any show that will take your theatre as close as possible to when the previous show closes. Creating a recipe for failure. Which plays out off Broadway all year. So, yeah, commercial off Broadway is kind of dead, more or less. The model is broken, and there are so few possible theatres. Broadway used to have this problem, when shows would close on opening night - and then you have to wait for a new tenant. This was because theater owners used to not charge rent, but rather split the box office with the producer. So if your show wasnt selling, the split wasnt enough to keep the theatre open, so you were tossed out by the theatre. But in the 70's the Shuberts came up with magic pill - make the producer pay rent, pay your property taxes, pay your insurance, pay for all of your employees, pay their payroll taxes, pay to print tickets, pay to use the box office systems which the theatre owns. Suddenly no risk. Which is why flop shows can run on and on and on. They are still paying all the theatre's bllls and staff, so are welcome to stay until a new show is booked. It used to be cheaper to have a flop in your theatre close. Now its better to encourage a producer to throw good money after bad and keep a show running til you have a new one ready to load in. Broadway. Off Broadway. Don't produce. Own theatres. |
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| re: Can off-Broadway become viable again | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:37 am EST 12/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Can off-Broadway become viable again - NewtonUK 07:42 am EST 12/26/18 | |
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| some of what you say is true, some false, a lot incomplete. And then there is the seemingly chronic need to express bias/hatred that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. When one chooses to write at length in a faux-exhaustive style, any merit in the underlying point is quickly dissipated. Your list of venues is nowhere near complete as to either non-profits or spaces available to commercial producers. But stripped of all that, it is still true that the off-B model is, except for a few exceptions, not promising at the moment. Could that change? Yes. This is New York and the one thing anyone paying attention knows is that everything, including especially everything involving real estate, evolves. | |
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| re: Can off-Broadway become viable again | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 01:27 pm EST 12/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Can off-Broadway become viable again - ryhog 11:37 am EST 12/26/18 | |
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| Well, I work in the business every day, have for some 50 years. I know the off Broadway commercial inventory pretty well (considering only theatres 199 and above - mostly -as nothing else works - and there are precious few 99s any more anyway). I actually re-read all of my posts carefully, and there are no lies in my post above, Mr/Ms Ryhog. If one wanted to a produce a show like the original Godspell at Cherry Lane - non union - and then move up - one can cut the risk drastically. But producing a show commercially off Broadway is VERy hard due to lack of venues and the costs associated. And the Broadway model was indeed broken in the 70's, never to be fixed as far as I can tell. Not bias, just true. The new model is very different, and for the few available theaters one can take a shot if one get an owner to accept your prohect - no easy task these days except for a very few of our most successful producers. ANd Disney. | |
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| re: Can off-Broadway become viable again | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:58 pm EST 12/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Can off-Broadway become viable again - NewtonUK 01:27 pm EST 12/26/18 | |
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| No one mentioned lies but if you want to suggest you know what you are talking about, it behooves you to not be wrong or incomplete, which you were. That does not alter the current landscape materially, but wrong is wrong. And chips on shoulders do not persuade. P.S. Nothing is easy; some people just make things look easy, whilst others manage to make things harder than they are. That's not the theatre; it's everything. | |
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| "Everything, including especially everything involving real estate, evolves" is a rule | |
| Posted by: BrianJ 05:52 am EST 12/28/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Can off-Broadway become viable again - ryhog 01:58 pm EST 12/26/18 | |
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| Those of us paying attention enough to know that there are no rules are well aware that nothing, including especially nothing involving real estate, may ever evolve again. But to those misguided people under the delusion that there are rules - best of luck to you! |
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| re: "Everything, including especially everything involving real estate, evolves" is a rule | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:44 am EST 12/28/18 | |
| In reply to: "Everything, including especially everything involving real estate, evolves" is a rule - BrianJ 05:52 am EST 12/28/18 | |
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| I think you misapprehend "rules" as I use the term. Rules refer to things that can affect our actions, not discernible facts that are out of our range of control. This is the essence of science: we can do things to "defy" gravity, but we cannot alter it. We have the laws of thermodynamics, not the rules of thermodynamics. :-) Thanks for playing. |
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| Altar boyz did recoup | |
| Posted by: dramedy 08:10 am EST 12/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Can off-Broadway become viable again - NewtonUK 07:42 am EST 12/26/18 | |
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| It took 2 or even 3 years but it did. I find your take on share boxoffice can lease change in 70s fascinating. I’ve never heard that before and it makes a lot of sense as for one eeason why shows closed opening night back then along with more shows waiting for theaters back then. |
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| Link | http://www.playbill.com/article/altar-boyz-80s-prom-and-my-first-time-recoup-investments-com-147450 |
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| re: Altar boyz did recoup | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:43 am EST 12/26/18 | |
| In reply to: Altar boyz did recoup - dramedy 08:10 am EST 12/26/18 | |
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| Beware the accuracy of what you find fascinating. I don't have time to explain atm but we can revisit sometime if you want. | |
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| re: Altar boyz did recoup | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 10:13 am EST 12/26/18 | |
| In reply to: Altar boyz did recoup - dramedy 08:10 am EST 12/26/18 | |
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| Thanks for the Altar Boyz link - I remember this now - and it was another warning sign. Here was a hit show, selling well, small cast musical - and they struggled for years to earn back their cap. I.known about the change in the Broadway model for many years- but you can read about it in Michael Riedel's book, as well, which outlines the many ways, large and small, that the SHuberts unilaterally restructured Broadway economics, and renegotiated Union contracts - all in ways that have led to a musical that cost $1.3 million in 1960 (in 2018 dollars), costing $13 million today. And coincidentally put zillions into the Shubert (tax free) coffers. | |
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| I saw the movie bathtubs over broadway a few days ago | |
| Posted by: dramedy 10:54 am EST 12/26/18 | |
| In reply to: re: Altar boyz did recoup - NewtonUK 10:13 am EST 12/26/18 | |
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| They stated that these industrial shows cost $3M when the original my fair lady cost around $3-400k on broadway. I assume part of that is basically the company is paying for everything up front while a broadway production pays royalties over time instead of a lump sum. Good movie overall. |
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