Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: jurinac 10:08 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: Wondering if The Prom will benefit from its holiday bump, going into the bleak months - Ann 09:57 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| Despite the presence of a lot of very talented people onstage, I wasn't too taken with THE PROM, and it's hard for me to imagine how such a smug, self-congratulatory, preach-to-the-choir show will run for long once it's burned through its "coastal elite" audience. That's this midwestern homosexual's impression, anyway. | |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Broadwaywannabe 08:41 am EST 01/05/19 | |
| In reply to: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - jurinac 10:08 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| I wasn’t too taken by the prom because it’s just not good theater. Besides a very funny first act, there is a completely forgettable score, a way too earnest second act, bad choreography and a predictable plot. These are, of course, my opinions and the audience I saw it with clearly loved it. | |
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| Any show that presents Applebees... | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 03:45 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - jurinac 10:08 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| ...as a surprisingly delightful location for a potentially romantic dinner....which it is...cannot be derided as "culturally elite". (There is plenty of compassion for all in The Prom. Please recall--they were about to solve the problem when the outsiders arrived. And every one of the "enlightened" goes through their own "enlightenment" as well.) But that is just another midwestern homosexual's impression, anyway. (But I'll be happy to back myself up with text from the show. ;) ) |
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| re: Any show that presents Applebees... | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:02 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: Any show that presents Applebees... - Quicheo 03:45 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
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| "There is plenty of compassion for all in The Prom. Please recall--they were about to solve the problem when the outsiders arrived. And every one of the 'enlightened' goes through their own 'enlightenment' as well.)" Thanks. It's almost as if the people who are objecting to the politics of the show paid attention to only certain parts of the show and ignored others. |
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| re: Any show that presents Applebees... | |
| Posted by: jurinac 06:59 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Any show that presents Applebees... - Michael_Portantiere 04:02 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
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| Only paying attention to some parts of the show? Maybe you’re right: I obviously slept through the scenes in which the folk of Indiana were characterized in any kind of detail. I only imagined the girl’s song that was framed as a denunciation of Indiana, as well as the production number in which Christopher Sieber made all of the kids look like idiots. The homophobic mom was a fully rounded character, with her own song and everything. Sorry: this rube missed it all from the fourth row center. | |
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| re: Any show that presents Applebees... | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 10:49 am EST 01/05/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Any show that presents Applebees... - jurinac 06:59 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
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| You are certainly welcome to your interpretation, but a couple of comments from a fellow rube: The principal is certainly given plenty of detail and his own song. And he is representing a good chunk of the midwest that I know. An unhappy teen being angry at the behavior of certain peers and adults and generalizing it to her entire state? That felt real, not mean-spirited. Especially when the plot turns prove to her that Indiana (and beyond) can support her and her freedoms by the end of the play. Maybe it was because I was third row center? ;) |
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| re: Any show that presents Applebees... | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 08:04 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Any show that presents Applebees... - jurinac 06:59 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
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| "Only paying attention to some parts of the show? Maybe you’re right: I obviously slept through the scenes in which the folk of Indiana were characterized in any kind of detail. I only imagined the girl’s song that was framed as a denunciation of Indiana, as well as the production number in which Christopher Sieber made all of the kids look like idiots. The homophobic mom was a fully rounded character, with her own song and everything. Sorry: this rube missed it all from the fourth row center. All of the material you cite is, in fact, in the show -- and so is all of the other, balancing material that you have chosen to ignore as if it isn't there. That's exactly my point. P.S. Christopher Sieber's character made all of the kids look like idiots to the extent that people who think they can cherry-pick certain strictures of the Bible to pay attention to and condemn others for violating, while ignoring other parts (because they themselves are guilty of those "sins"), are idiots. |
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| re: Any show that presents Applebees... | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 05:18 am EST 01/05/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Any show that presents Applebees... - Michael_Portantiere 08:04 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
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| I’d go further and ask why care about anything the Bible says? | |
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| re: Any show that presents Applebees... | |
| Last Edit: Quicheo 10:50 am EST 01/05/19 | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 10:43 am EST 01/05/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Any show that presents Applebees... - KingSpeed 05:18 am EST 01/05/19 | |
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| I certainly understand what you are saying and there are many who feel that way, I am sure. But--in a situation where a group of people are attempting to make a point using a document they believe in, would you not agree that using that same document to show them a second point or, in this case, a potentially bigger point is a stronger "make friends and influence people" tactic than suggesting they throw out the entire document in the first place? And what Mr. Sieber's song is also about is that people who have excelled in academic theater may be better suited to teach than perform--and I found this personal discovery delightful and unexpected. |
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| re: Any show that presents Applebees... | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:04 am EST 01/05/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Any show that presents Applebees... - Quicheo 10:43 am EST 01/05/19 | |
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| "people who have excelled in academic theater may be better suited to teach than perform--and I found this personal discovery delightful and unexpected." I agree with finding it delightful, but I think it's a little more complicated than that. His character was, after all, on a TV series that is still in syndication, so he did have success as a performer. It's just that, for whatever reason, that didn't turn into a career, and so he is finding another outlet for his skills and passion. This job also gives him a space to exercise his activism and build a community, which are important to him, as they are a large part of what drove this whole troupe to go down there in the first place. |
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| re: Any show that presents Applebees... | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 11:17 am EST 01/05/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Any show that presents Applebees... - Singapore/Fling 11:04 am EST 01/05/19 | |
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| Certainly agree. And you are correct about his previous success, but that very success is a source of embarrassment and consternation for him in that, partially, it doesn't truly represent his abilities and also wasn't the gateway he hoped it would be. I greatly enjoyed his passion for teaching theater as a means of teaching empathy and found his character's discovery of a fulfilling life path--one in which "I went to Julliard" will be met with far fewer eye rolls--really quite sweet. He needs Indiana as much as it needs him. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:35 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - jurinac 10:08 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| "Despite the presence of a lot of very talented people onstage, I wasn't too taken with THE PROM, and it's hard for me to imagine how such a smug, self-congratulatory, preach-to-the-choir show will run for long once it's burned through its "coastal elite" audience. That's this midwestern homosexual's impression, anyway." I can't wrap my mind around any perception of this show as "smug" or "self-congratulatory." First of all, I''m amazed that a show with so much great humor in it could come across as "smug" to anyone. Much of the humor in the show is about how the Social Justice Warriors from NYC certainly have their own flaws, questionable motivations, and ridiculous moments. Conversely, the show makes a real attempt to humanize the mother who leads the charge to cancel the prom to prevent the lesbians from attending, rather than painting her as a cardboard villain. And if you feel that the portrait of that woman and some of her fellow midwesterners is STILL too harsh, all you need to do is some research into actual events along the lines portrayed in THE PROM. Finally, I'm sorry, but the phrase "coastal elite" is most often used by non-coastal people who are smug themselves, rather than reacting to smugness. So I think your use of that word was very unfortunate. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 11:08 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - Michael_Portantiere 10:35 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| Michael - In a way I agree with the post above. I love watching Brooks, and Beth, and Chris - but the show seemed to be very self conscious about its fakey over the top show biz people - I know this is supposed to be satire - but satire is smarter than this - and comedy is funnier. The score isn't much to write home about, and IMHO Act 2 keeps stopping dead for what feel like Act 1 songs. And then there is the - for me - totally cringeworthy number 'Love They Neighbor.' A gay Broadway musical theatre star and his cohorts popping down to a flyover town to get a Lesbian couple into their Prom, doesn't, to me , a compelling story make. In the flawed, but moving, EVERYBODY'S TALKING ABOUT JAMIE in London, there is a drag queen who helps the lad who wants to go to prom in a dress get courage - buts its the bravery of a whole bunch of straight adults - and kids 0 that resolve this plot. I'm happy that many people enjoy this show; its unfortunate that its run does not look like it will be charmed or long. But the whole show seemed very pleased with itself, from page one. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:59 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - NewtonUK 11:08 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| NewtonUK, although I totally disagree with your feelings about the show -- especially the "pleased with itself" perception -- of course I understand that different people can react to the same show in very different ways. It's fine that you and some other people don't like it, but I also think it's fine and instructive to debate the show's merits and flaws. | |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 02:13 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - Michael_Portantiere 11:59 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| absolutely. I still take flack because I really liked SOMETHINGS AFOOT. | |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 11:05 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - Michael_Portantiere 10:35 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| "Finally, I'm sorry, but the phrase "coastal elite" is most often used by non-coastal people who are smug themselves, rather than reacting to smugness. So I think your use of that word was very unfortunate." This, right here. Hypocrisy being called out, and extremely well said. (All of it, but especially this last point.) Bravo. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: kidmanboy 11:36 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - ShowGoer 11:05 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| I have to say that, as a liberal New Yorker myself, I thought this show was exactly why midwesterners view us as “coastal elite.” The broadway characters looked down on the inhabitants of the town they were visiting and little was done to prove their preconceptions wrong. Overall, the message of the show was indeed positive, and I liked portions of it, but the topics being discussed here deserved a deeper dive and gentler hand. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:15 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - kidmanboy 11:36 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| "I have to say that, as a liberal New Yorker myself, I thought this show was exactly why midwesterners view us as 'coastal elite.' The broadway characters looked down on the inhabitants of the town they were visiting and little was done to prove their preconceptions wrong. " Yes, the Broadway characters do "look down" on the inhabitants of the town -- but again, the Broadway characters are frequently made to seem humorously ridiculous in some of their attitudes, reactions, and motivations, and also they learn that the conflict they are there to protest is not the black-and-white situation they initially think it is, and that the people on the other side of the argument are not cardboard villains. In order to enjoy THE PROM, you DO have to view it as objectively wrong to cancel a prom in order to prevent a gay or lesbian teenager from attending with another gay or lesbian teenager as their date because of religious teachings and "community standards." Anyone who doesn't view that action as objectively wrong will not enjoy this show and should probably not attend, even though they would most benefit from its message. And if you are not willing to stand up for something like this because you are afraid of being perceived as a member of the "coastal elite," I think that's troubling and more than a little frightening. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: jurinac 12:30 am EST 01/05/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - Michael_Portantiere 12:15 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
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| Michael, precisely where in the show are the Midwesterners characterized in depth? You keep saying I'm ignoring all these things in the show, but you don't provide specific examples. It's almost as if you're the one who's imagining things that simply aren't there. Frankly, it's hard to believe from many of your other posts here that you really do feel "It's fine that . . . some other people don't like it, but I also think it's fine and instructive to debate the show's merits and flaws." As for your high-minded point about believing it's objectively wrong to cancel a prom to keep an LGBT couple from attending -- of course I agree. I'd argue that few people who buy a ticket to THE PROM would disagree -- that's what I meant when I accused it of preaching to the choir. Your final paragraph here unwittingly illustrates one of the points I was trying to make. You write, "Anyone [opposed to LGBT couples at a prom] should probably not attend, even though they would most benefit from its message." So who's benefitting from the message at that rate? It's like giving HAIRSPRAY high marks for its brave stand against racism. Fortunately, HAIRSPRAY offered a book, score and staging of far higher quality than THE PROM's; as sheer entertainment, it was delightful enough for me to tolerate its own detour into self-congratulation ("I Know Where I've Been"). Then again, that anything I wrote provoked your final sentence -- "And if you are not willing to stand up for something like this because you are afraid of being perceived as a member of the 'coastal elite,' I think that's troubling and more than a little frightening" -- suggests that close reading and nuanced discussion aren't really priorities here. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:21 pm EST 01/05/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - jurinac 12:30 am EST 01/05/19 | |
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| "Precisely where in the show are the Midwesterners characterized in depth? You keep saying I'm ignoring all these things in the show, but you don't provide specific examples. It's almost as if you're the one who's imagining things that simply aren't there." The principal is a midwesterner, the mother of the girl who leads the fight against the prom is a midwesterner, and the two young lesbians are midwesterners. I think they are all characterized in depth. It is true that the other kids are not characterized in depth, but there's only so much time in the show. Also, it's germane to note that the focus of the show in general is on fairly broad comedy, rather than serious moments (although there are several of those), so "in-depth characterization" is not the primary goal anyway. "Frankly, it's hard to believe from many of your other posts here that you really do feel 'It's fine that . . . some other people don't like it, but I also think it's fine and instructive to debate the show's merits and flaws.'" That sounds like an insult, but I really do believe what I wrote. I just don't think there's any merit in criticism of the show that ignores large sections of it. In my view, the creators of THE PROM were certainly smart and talented enough to realize that if they wrote a show that depicted the social justice warriors from NYC as perfect people who are 100 percent in the right, and the midwesterners as cardboard villains and backward rubes who are 100 percent in the wrong, that show would have been worthless (and offensive). So the creators worked very hard to balance the scales, and yet it seems to me that you are ignoring (or at least severely downplaying) all of that content and only focusing on the content that supports your perception of the show's politics. I think that's a slap in the face of the creators who worked so very hard to avoid just such a reaction. Of course, I do consider it objectively wrong to cancel a prom to keep an LGBT couple from attending. But what I wrote was: "In order to enjoy THE PROM, you DO have to view it as objectively wrong to cancel a prom in order to prevent a gay or lesbian teenager from attending with another gay or lesbian teenager as their date because of religious teachings and 'community standards.'" How you can view that statement as "high-minded" is beyond me. Or are you arguing that it IS possible for someone who doesn't view this as objectively wrong to enjoy the show? You are right, what I should have written was: "Anyone opposed to LGBT couples at a prom should absolutely attend this show if they are open to having their opinions changed." I do think that, sadly, there's no point in such people attending if they are 100 percent set in their feelings and are not open to change. And finally, if you choose to view the attitude of HAIRSPRAY and/or THE PROM as "self-congratulatory," I don't know what to say except I'm sorry your perception of their social justice content is negative rather than positive. But I do wonder, are there other social justice shows that you don't view as "self congratulatory?" For example, how would you characterize TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD? |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: kidmanboy 12:44 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - Michael_Portantiere 12:15 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
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| I think you're last paragraph is exactly why the show didn't work for me dramatically (although I did enjoy parts of it quite a bit). Yes, I do agree that that is objectively wrong. So what are we learning? What's the show's message? it paints the situation is if New Yorkers are the only ones that know this is inherently wrong. That by default, Midwesterners are ignorant and homophobic. I think that assumption is a bit isolating. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:14 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - kidmanboy 12:44 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
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| "I think you're last paragraph is exactly why the show didn't work for me dramatically (although I did enjoy parts of it quite a bit). Yes, I do agree that that is objectively wrong. So what are we learning? What's the show's message? it paints the situation is if New Yorkers are the only ones that know this is inherently wrong. That by default, Midwesterners are ignorant and homophobic. I think that assumption is a bit isolating." There is no such "assumption" in THE PROM. Situations such as the prom cancellation HAVE happened in the midwest. But, as I remarked to a friend the other night, something like that could easily happen on Staten Island and possibly in some other parts of NYC. The fact that this particular show depicts SOME New Yorkers on the "liberal" side and SOME midwesterners on the "conservative" side does not imply an assumption that ALL New Yorkers and ALL midwesterners fit into those categories. I am very surprised that you felt otherwise. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Ann 11:46 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - kidmanboy 11:36 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| I didn't feel that way at all about their preconceptions, by the end. I think lessons were learned all around. | |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 11:38 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - kidmanboy 11:36 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| "little was done to prove their preconceptions wrong." Perhaps you didn't actually see the show. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 10:27 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - jurinac 10:08 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| Wow, that's a bad take. The Prom is an interesting mix of tone (satire and genuine both), but none of it is smug or preaching to any choir. | |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: theaterdude 10:20 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - jurinac 10:08 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| Wow - had to re-read your post several times to make sure I wasn't reading it wrong. This is the very last show-or cast- that I'd call smug or self-congratulatory. Maybe you're confusing a very hard-working group of people that genuinely seem to like each other and love what they're doing with those words. Their enthusiasm is infectious and radiates right off the stage, I wish more shows were like that. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I honestly can't imagine how anyone, especially a gay person could come away with those impressions. At the very least, this show promotes an important message about inclusion that you should be cheering about. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: sirpupnyc 10:32 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - theaterdude 10:20 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| Sure, it's not the message of the show, but you can't deny that "let's go tell those flyover people how backwards they are" is pretty integral to the plot. I wouldn't be surprised if that means the message is lost on a fair chunk of the audience. And the really important bit is buried all the way at the end: If you don’t let her be who she is, you’re going to lose her. You’re going to lose your daughter. Trust me. I know what I’m talking about. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 10:36 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - sirpupnyc 10:32 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| "I wouldn't be surprised if that means the message is lost on a fair chunk of the audience. " I honestly don't think people are that stupid. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Ann 10:28 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - theaterdude 10:20 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| I wouldn't describe it that way either. I was hesitant about seeing it, based on the descriptions. It seemed like something that could go wrong, be very squirm-inducing - and the title doesn't tell much. But I loved it. | |
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