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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: kidmanboy 11:36 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - ShowGoer 11:05 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| I have to say that, as a liberal New Yorker myself, I thought this show was exactly why midwesterners view us as “coastal elite.” The broadway characters looked down on the inhabitants of the town they were visiting and little was done to prove their preconceptions wrong. Overall, the message of the show was indeed positive, and I liked portions of it, but the topics being discussed here deserved a deeper dive and gentler hand. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:15 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - kidmanboy 11:36 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| "I have to say that, as a liberal New Yorker myself, I thought this show was exactly why midwesterners view us as 'coastal elite.' The broadway characters looked down on the inhabitants of the town they were visiting and little was done to prove their preconceptions wrong. " Yes, the Broadway characters do "look down" on the inhabitants of the town -- but again, the Broadway characters are frequently made to seem humorously ridiculous in some of their attitudes, reactions, and motivations, and also they learn that the conflict they are there to protest is not the black-and-white situation they initially think it is, and that the people on the other side of the argument are not cardboard villains. In order to enjoy THE PROM, you DO have to view it as objectively wrong to cancel a prom in order to prevent a gay or lesbian teenager from attending with another gay or lesbian teenager as their date because of religious teachings and "community standards." Anyone who doesn't view that action as objectively wrong will not enjoy this show and should probably not attend, even though they would most benefit from its message. And if you are not willing to stand up for something like this because you are afraid of being perceived as a member of the "coastal elite," I think that's troubling and more than a little frightening. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: jurinac 12:30 am EST 01/05/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - Michael_Portantiere 12:15 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
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| Michael, precisely where in the show are the Midwesterners characterized in depth? You keep saying I'm ignoring all these things in the show, but you don't provide specific examples. It's almost as if you're the one who's imagining things that simply aren't there. Frankly, it's hard to believe from many of your other posts here that you really do feel "It's fine that . . . some other people don't like it, but I also think it's fine and instructive to debate the show's merits and flaws." As for your high-minded point about believing it's objectively wrong to cancel a prom to keep an LGBT couple from attending -- of course I agree. I'd argue that few people who buy a ticket to THE PROM would disagree -- that's what I meant when I accused it of preaching to the choir. Your final paragraph here unwittingly illustrates one of the points I was trying to make. You write, "Anyone [opposed to LGBT couples at a prom] should probably not attend, even though they would most benefit from its message." So who's benefitting from the message at that rate? It's like giving HAIRSPRAY high marks for its brave stand against racism. Fortunately, HAIRSPRAY offered a book, score and staging of far higher quality than THE PROM's; as sheer entertainment, it was delightful enough for me to tolerate its own detour into self-congratulation ("I Know Where I've Been"). Then again, that anything I wrote provoked your final sentence -- "And if you are not willing to stand up for something like this because you are afraid of being perceived as a member of the 'coastal elite,' I think that's troubling and more than a little frightening" -- suggests that close reading and nuanced discussion aren't really priorities here. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:21 pm EST 01/05/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - jurinac 12:30 am EST 01/05/19 | |
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| "Precisely where in the show are the Midwesterners characterized in depth? You keep saying I'm ignoring all these things in the show, but you don't provide specific examples. It's almost as if you're the one who's imagining things that simply aren't there." The principal is a midwesterner, the mother of the girl who leads the fight against the prom is a midwesterner, and the two young lesbians are midwesterners. I think they are all characterized in depth. It is true that the other kids are not characterized in depth, but there's only so much time in the show. Also, it's germane to note that the focus of the show in general is on fairly broad comedy, rather than serious moments (although there are several of those), so "in-depth characterization" is not the primary goal anyway. "Frankly, it's hard to believe from many of your other posts here that you really do feel 'It's fine that . . . some other people don't like it, but I also think it's fine and instructive to debate the show's merits and flaws.'" That sounds like an insult, but I really do believe what I wrote. I just don't think there's any merit in criticism of the show that ignores large sections of it. In my view, the creators of THE PROM were certainly smart and talented enough to realize that if they wrote a show that depicted the social justice warriors from NYC as perfect people who are 100 percent in the right, and the midwesterners as cardboard villains and backward rubes who are 100 percent in the wrong, that show would have been worthless (and offensive). So the creators worked very hard to balance the scales, and yet it seems to me that you are ignoring (or at least severely downplaying) all of that content and only focusing on the content that supports your perception of the show's politics. I think that's a slap in the face of the creators who worked so very hard to avoid just such a reaction. Of course, I do consider it objectively wrong to cancel a prom to keep an LGBT couple from attending. But what I wrote was: "In order to enjoy THE PROM, you DO have to view it as objectively wrong to cancel a prom in order to prevent a gay or lesbian teenager from attending with another gay or lesbian teenager as their date because of religious teachings and 'community standards.'" How you can view that statement as "high-minded" is beyond me. Or are you arguing that it IS possible for someone who doesn't view this as objectively wrong to enjoy the show? You are right, what I should have written was: "Anyone opposed to LGBT couples at a prom should absolutely attend this show if they are open to having their opinions changed." I do think that, sadly, there's no point in such people attending if they are 100 percent set in their feelings and are not open to change. And finally, if you choose to view the attitude of HAIRSPRAY and/or THE PROM as "self-congratulatory," I don't know what to say except I'm sorry your perception of their social justice content is negative rather than positive. But I do wonder, are there other social justice shows that you don't view as "self congratulatory?" For example, how would you characterize TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD? |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: kidmanboy 12:44 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - Michael_Portantiere 12:15 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
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| I think you're last paragraph is exactly why the show didn't work for me dramatically (although I did enjoy parts of it quite a bit). Yes, I do agree that that is objectively wrong. So what are we learning? What's the show's message? it paints the situation is if New Yorkers are the only ones that know this is inherently wrong. That by default, Midwesterners are ignorant and homophobic. I think that assumption is a bit isolating. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:14 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - kidmanboy 12:44 pm EST 01/04/19 | |
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| "I think you're last paragraph is exactly why the show didn't work for me dramatically (although I did enjoy parts of it quite a bit). Yes, I do agree that that is objectively wrong. So what are we learning? What's the show's message? it paints the situation is if New Yorkers are the only ones that know this is inherently wrong. That by default, Midwesterners are ignorant and homophobic. I think that assumption is a bit isolating." There is no such "assumption" in THE PROM. Situations such as the prom cancellation HAVE happened in the midwest. But, as I remarked to a friend the other night, something like that could easily happen on Staten Island and possibly in some other parts of NYC. The fact that this particular show depicts SOME New Yorkers on the "liberal" side and SOME midwesterners on the "conservative" side does not imply an assumption that ALL New Yorkers and ALL midwesterners fit into those categories. I am very surprised that you felt otherwise. |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Ann 11:46 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - kidmanboy 11:36 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| I didn't feel that way at all about their preconceptions, by the end. I think lessons were learned all around. | |
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| re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 11:38 am EST 01/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Saw it last night (was re: Wondering if The Prom will benefit . . .) - kidmanboy 11:36 am EST 01/04/19 | |
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| "little was done to prove their preconceptions wrong." Perhaps you didn't actually see the show. |
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