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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:10 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: Happy Talk racist? - StanS 12:54 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| "'Happy Talk' is occasionally cut from productions of South Pacific on the grounds that the song is racist, citing the fake pidgin in which it is written.[citation needed]" Using that rationale, the entire role of Bloody Mary would have to be cut. It should go without saying that anyone who thinks any aspect of SOUTH PACIFIC is "racist" should simply not be involved in a production of it. |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: bmc 06:20 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Michael_Portantiere 01:10 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| didn't(years ago) ATC got thru this with'chekky'? | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 01:39 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:31 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Michael_Portantiere 01:10 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| Actually, I once had a rather surprising experience doing a theatre class with a bunch of young teen students. We were looking at "You've Got To Be Carefully Taught," and some of the students thought the song was racist (instead of anti-racist). I was caught off-guard by this. But in discussing the issue further, I realized that they were hearing the message of the song the wrong way, due to the way the lyrics are naturally accented. In other words, they were hearing "you've GOT to be taught" (i.e. "this is what you HAVE to do") as opposed to "you've got to be TAUGHT" (i.e. this is how it happens, by being taught). Once they understood that the key word was "taught" and not "got," they changed their opinion of the song. In terms of "Happy Talk," there really isn't any "fake pidgin" English involved at all - "pidgin" is the wrong term entirely. Maybe the lyric has a bit of awkward grammar, but I don't think that's automatically racist. What the song does have is Hammerstein's typical attempt at dialect - but in coaching songs that use that, I always advise singers to go easy on that language and to try not to call attention to it so much. But this goes for lyrics in Oklahoma, Carousel, and others that attempt the same kind of "folksy" English as well. I think that if the actress playing Bloody Mary sings something that sounds closer to "things you like to do" rather than "things you LAK to do," (just as I'd rather that Curly would sing something closer to "care to swap" than "keer to swap," etc), it wouldn't sound "racist" at all. The problem, though, may be more in the tradition of the song - that we hear past performances in our head, and find it hard NOT to hear it with that more exaggerated sense of language. |
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| "whose eyes are oddly made" | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:32 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 01:31 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| It's lyrics like that which make it hard, especially out of context of the time period, to not see some inherent racism in the anti-racism song. Which I think for this character works just fine, as it would for almost any person of the time (or now even) because "we're all a little bit racist". You can be recognizing racism and rallying against it while also having some slanted ideas or "problematic" wording to your well-intended points. I don't think the lyric is racist, and I think even just in the context of the verse it's in your can see it's not. But the next line about skin color a different shade is NOT guilty of the same issue, because it doesn't use a word with judgement or connotation inherent in it, like "oddly" has. At least how I understand it. I would never do the show without Happy Talk, nor do I think You've Got to Be Carefully Taught is racist. |
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| re: "whose eyes are oddly made" | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:50 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: "whose eyes are oddly made" - Chazwaza 04:32 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| ***It's lyrics like that which make it hard, especially out of context of the time period, to not see some inherent racism in the anti-racism song. Which I think for this character works just fine, as it would for almost any person of the time (or now even) because "we're all a little bit racist". You can be recognizing racism and rallying against it while also having some slanted ideas or "problematic" wording to your well-intended points.*** I absolutely agree, and it works especially well for Cable because he is -- as he himself is pointing out -- the product of a highly racist upbringing. On a related note, I haven't read Hammerstein's intro to CARMEN JONES in about 40 years or more, but I distinctly remember some statements in it that I think many people today would consider racist, even though from a positive perspective -- something like, "the American Negro has rhythm in his body and music in his soul." This from a man justly famous as a fervent anti-racist, but he was still a product of his time. |
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| re: "whose eyes are oddly made" | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:59 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "whose eyes are oddly made" - Michael_Portantiere 04:50 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I also think the hyper-sensitive triggered-happy culture of right now is very quick to forget that there's a BIG difference between racist vs ignorant, and racism vs racial insensitivity (which i think is, for example, the difference between wearing black face in the 80s to dress up like a black celebrity you like vs black face to mock black people or do a fake KKK scene - both are wrong to do, but they display a notably different intention and outlook). I think in the Carmen Jones intro you describe, it seems to me like ignorance from someone who is anti-racism, rather than actual racism. But as a white person, I recognize I may be limited in my understand here and I am happy to hear if I'm wrong from someone who knows this kind of thing from another perspective. |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: andyboy 02:48 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 01:31 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| Personally, I find "You've got to be taught / To be afraid / OF PEOPLE WHO'S EYES / ARE ODDLY MADE" pretty cringeworthy. Yes, Cable is without a doubt arguing AGAINST racism -- but with (yikes) a pretty racist attitude in that phrase... | |
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| I was sure the lyric is “ugly made” | |
| Posted by: jeffef 01:18 pm EST 02/21/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - andyboy 02:48 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I just listened to the original Broadway cast recording. And it’s still a cringeworthy lyric but I’ll bet it was written to be cringeworthy on purpose. | |
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| "Oddly-made eyes" IS cringeworthy.... | |
| Posted by: portenopete 05:42 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - andyboy 02:48 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| ....in the best possible way. The harshness of the phrase succinctly communicates the pain in Cable's heart. Much as he wishes it wasn't so, he harbours these prejudices and judgements in him. As we all do, especially those of us brought up in a time where they were casually thrown around, often without any conscious malice. It's one of the brilliant aspects of R&H's show (and Micheneer's original book) to have an admitted racist as your heroine. And to cast Broadway's sweetheart in the role. The audience would have identified very closely to Nellie's predicament and probably shared the same misgivings and, hopefully, would have left the theatre questioning the lessons they'd been carefully taught. |
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| re: "Oddly-made eyes" IS cringeworthy.... | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:12 pm EST 02/21/19 | |
| In reply to: "Oddly-made eyes" IS cringeworthy.... - portenopete 05:42 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| "The harshness of the phrase succinctly communicates the pain in Cable's heart. Much as he wishes it wasn't so, he harbours these prejudices and judgements in him. As we all do, especially those of us brought up in a time where they were casually thrown around, often without any conscious malice. It's one of the brilliant aspects of R&H's show (and Micheneer's original book) to have an admitted racist as your heroine. And to cast Broadway's sweetheart in the role. The audience would have identified very closely to Nellie's predicament and probably shared the same misgivings and, hopefully, would have left the theatre questioning the lessons they'd been carefully taught." Very intelligently and eloquently expressed. |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:58 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - andyboy 02:48 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| *****Personally, I find "You've got to be taught / To be afraid / OF PEOPLE WHO'S EYES / ARE ODDLY MADE" pretty cringeworthy. Yes, Cable is without a doubt arguing AGAINST racism -- but with (yikes) a pretty racist attitude in that phrase...***** That never occurred to me! But now that you've brought it up, I would say one could easily interpret that phrase as Cable making the point that white racists think Asian people have eyes that are "oddly made" -- not that he himself would ever use that term. |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 05:37 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Michael_Portantiere 02:58 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I've always read the entire lyric of "Carefully Taught" as Cable generalizing (correctly, I think) from his own upbringing to the universal. He isn't singing about any particular group, neither as the subjects of the racism nor as the objects of it; he's singing that ***everybody*** does this. So the "oddly made" bit isn't a slur on any particular ethnic group's eyes; it could be Asian people thinking European people's eyes are "oddly made." It doesn't matter. The point is that fear of "the other" is universal. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: andyboy 03:04 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Michael_Portantiere 02:58 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| And that thought never occurred to ME, haha. But yes, you could! I feel slightly better about that now. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:33 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - andyboy 03:04 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| :-) | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:08 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 01:31 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| ***Actually, I once had a rather surprising experience doing a theatre class with a bunch of young teen students. We were looking at "You've Got To Be Carefully Taught," and some of the students thought the song was racist (instead of anti-racist). I was caught off-guard by this. But in discussing the issue further, I realized that they were hearing the message of the song the wrong way, due to the way the lyrics are naturally accented. In other words, they were hearing "you've GOT to be taught" (i.e. "this is what you HAVE to do") as opposed to "you've got to be TAUGHT" (i.e. this is how it happens, by being taught). Once they understood that the key word was "taught" and not "got," they changed their opinion of the song. *** That seems rather surprising to me, since "taught" is accented as much as "got" almost every time it comes around in the song. I would think the issue was more that the students didn't initially understand the bitter irony of the song. Of course, it helps a lot of the song is experienced in context, in terms of how it's set up in the show. I'm guessing maybe you were examining the song in isolation and out of context, at least initially, and that may also have had a lot to do with the students' misinterpretation. |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 02:22 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:16 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Michael_Portantiere 02:08 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| Thanks - but no - they really were hearing "got" as the operative word. I was there, and I was part of the discussion. And no - in fact, we were indeed looking at the entire scene leading up to the song. But even with Cable's statement that prejudice is "NOT born in you" etc, they simply misheard the lyric's intention. (But thanks for the assumptions, lol.) And really, "got" does naturally get a bit more emphasis - in a fast tempo where we really tend to hear the phrases in 4-bar groups rather than in single bars of fast 3, the ersatz "downbeats" (the "got" each time) do tend to get more weight. (Likewise, the 3rd bars in each phrase - "hate", "YEAR to year", "dear" etc, get the next most weight.) I do agree, though, that singers should make a conscious effort to make sure "taught" gets as much weight - or, in fact, more weight than "got." It's not hard to do, but I think one has to be aware of making that phrasing happen. |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: StanS 03:02 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 02:16 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I find it difficult to imagine anybody thinking the song is racist even if "got" were emphasized over "taught". The rest of the lyrics are very clear. "taught to hate and fear" etc. How can that be anything but a condemnation. In fact it might even be more interesting to actually emphasize "got" because then it would be more ironic, even though the message is the same. But judging from your class, perhaps recognizing irony is a lost art. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:37 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - StanS 03:02 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| ***I find it difficult to imagine anybody thinking the song is racist even if "got" were emphasized over "taught". The rest of the lyrics are very clear. "taught to hate and fear" etc. How can that be anything but a condemnation. In fact it might even be more interesting to actually emphasize "got" because then it would be more ironic, even though the message is the same. But judging from your class, perhaps recognizing irony is a lost art.*** Yes, that was part of my thought, as expressed in my first post in this thread. Some people do content that irony is a lost art, and anyway, I guess very young people sometimes just don't get it. |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:40 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 02:16 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| Okay. I simply disagree that "got" gets more emphasis that "taught" in the song. As you noted, "taught" also comes on a downbeat every time, and additionally, the notes for "taught" are held a little longer than the notes for "got" every time. But if the students heard the emphasis on "got," for whatever reason, then that's what they heard. Also, if you looked at the entire scene leading up to the song, and what happens in that scene between Cable, Emile, and Nellie, then I'm very surprised that the students could have interpreted the song as pro-racist. By the way, I said I was guessing that maybe you examined the song out of context (at least initially), and a guess is not the same thing as an assumption. I try to avoid assuming, because as Felix Unger taught us, "When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME!" :-) |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: StanS 01:59 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 01:31 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I don't get it. What's racist about "LAK"? Bloody Mary is not a native English speaker and has an accent. How is exhibiting this accent in any way racist? On the contrary, is it possible that the attempt to hide the accent and have her talk more like an "American" be the racist thing to do? |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 02:07 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:07 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - StanS 01:59 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I don't think that "lak" is overtly racist myself, but I can absolutely understand people that feel that such dialect, if sung too broadly, can seem like it's making fun of the character. That said, I'm not very fond of "lak" and such words either. It always feels to me that Hammerstein was trying to impose some random set of dialectical sounds than doing accurate research in how such a character would attempt to speak English. Of course I'm also aware that some of this comes from Michener also - but as I said, Hammerstein liked to do these kind of imposed accents in other shows as well. And when, essentially, dialect in Oklahoma, Maine, Siam, and the South Pacific Islands all have similar sounds, you know he can't really be right. He was most likely looking for something "exotic" rather than accurate, and I can understand how some people can find that offensive. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 09:57 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 02:07 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| It's been a while since I read "Green Grow the Lilacs," but in my memory, the dialect he uses is right out of the play, written by a native Oklahoman. As to SP, my memory of Bloody Mary in 'Tales of the South Pacific" is that that's the way she spoke in the stories. And, considering English is at least her third language, after Tonkinese and French, and the one most recently learned, her facility - or lack of it -- isn't that surprising. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:24 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma - StageDoorJohnny 09:57 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I won't dispute that Hammerstein may have borrowed from Riggs, Michener, et al, but...do they really say things like "womern" and "meader" in the state of Oklahoma? Do Oklahomans and people from Maine really say "keer" instead of "care"? Or "hev" instead of "have"? I've never heard ANYONE talk like that -- except in Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals lol. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:47 am EST 02/21/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma - Chromolume 10:24 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| ***I won't dispute that Hammerstein may have borrowed from Riggs, Michener, et al, but...do they really say things like "womern" and "meader" in the state of Oklahoma? Do Oklahomans and people from Maine really say "keer" instead of "care"? Or "hev" instead of "have"? I've never heard ANYONE talk like that -- except in Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals lol.**** I think all of those dialect words are Hammerstein's not necessarily successful or accurate attempts to indicate various dialects by re-spelling words, rather than by using the phonetic alphabet :-) And I think this method of doing so is always going to read as kind of silly and embarrassing, regardless of the level of accuracy. (I would say that applies to PORGY AND BESS as well, regardless of the authenticity of DuBose Heyward's life experience of the way the real-life equivalents of those characters spoke.) |
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| re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 11:39 am EST 02/21/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma - Michael_Portantiere 12:47 am EST 02/21/19 | |
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| I have heard 'meader.' I've also heard heighth for height, Warshington for the nations capital, droughth for drought (legit old time pronunciation), and i for e substitutions all over the place (pin for pen for example) I've heard 'shots' for 'shorts' in New England. In upstate NY they pronounce elementary (like school) with a long a, and mauve as mawv. If a regionalism isn't spelled out, as an approximation -- like keer or womern -- what you'll wind up with on stage is a bland standard English, which is not the author's intent. The sheet music for 'It's Delovely' used to specify pronouncing 'deluxe' as 'deloox' because that's what Porter intended. It may look or sound odd, I agree with you on that, but that doesn't negate the purpose of making the character(s) sound different or quaint rather than your neighbor next door. (another one for you -- 'loverly' in MFL, I doubt that ever came out of a Cockney's lips) | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:00 pm EST 02/21/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma - StageDoorJohnny 11:39 am EST 02/21/19 | |
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| (another one for you -- 'loverly' in MFL, I doubt that ever came out of a Cockney's lips) "Loverly" is a purposely made-up word - it has no connection to whether or not it's cockney, or any other dialect. Totally different kind of thing. |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: StanS 02:17 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 02:07 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| Thanks, now what you're saying makes more sense. I'll just say for myself that "lak" doesn't bother me, or make me feel like the character is being made fun of. It would be interesting to find out for sure how Hammerstein came up with the "accent" Mary uses in the show, what if any research he did. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:11 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 02:07 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I've always felt that dialogue written in a way that is meant to indicate a specific accent or dialect -- whether in OKLHAOMA!, CAROUSEL, SOUTH PACIFIC, PORGY AND BESS, CARMEN JONES, or whatever other show -- tends to look rather quaint and embarrassing, even if the writing of the dialect is quite accurate. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:18 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Michael_Portantiere 02:11 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I've always felt that dialogue written in a way that is meant to indicate a specific accent or dialect -- whether in OKLHAOMA!, CAROUSEL, SOUTH PACIFIC, PORGY AND BESS, CARMEN JONES, or whatever other show -- tends to look rather quaint and embarrassing, even if the writing of the dialect is quite accurate. Exactly. And really, I'm not sure they're particularly accurate in any of those shows. Being a New Englander all my life, I've yet to hear ANYONE ever say "fust" (instead of "first") or stuff like that. It's exaggerated for theatrical effect, I suppose, but it's not how anyone really speaks. |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: OldTheaterGuy 09:54 am EST 02/22/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 02:18 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| You have not heard anyone say “fust” because you live in the late 20th/early 21st century where mass media has tended to flatten out regional accents. (My husband grew up in Cornwall, England, but except when putting it on, doesn’t talk mush like a 19th century Cornishman). Hammerstein was obsessed with research. For instance, his daughter Alice recalled reading through dozens of period cookbooks to find recipes for the lyrics to This Was a Real Nice Clambake. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: davidack 11:12 pm EST 02/21/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 02:18 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I’m really enjoying the thoughtful conversation on this topic. One of my favorite versions Is by Nancy Wilson who make it a beautiful jazz number. I suppose now she might be accused of cultural appropriation | |
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