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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: StanS 01:59 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 01:31 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I don't get it. What's racist about "LAK"? Bloody Mary is not a native English speaker and has an accent. How is exhibiting this accent in any way racist? On the contrary, is it possible that the attempt to hide the accent and have her talk more like an "American" be the racist thing to do? |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 02:07 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:07 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - StanS 01:59 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I don't think that "lak" is overtly racist myself, but I can absolutely understand people that feel that such dialect, if sung too broadly, can seem like it's making fun of the character. That said, I'm not very fond of "lak" and such words either. It always feels to me that Hammerstein was trying to impose some random set of dialectical sounds than doing accurate research in how such a character would attempt to speak English. Of course I'm also aware that some of this comes from Michener also - but as I said, Hammerstein liked to do these kind of imposed accents in other shows as well. And when, essentially, dialect in Oklahoma, Maine, Siam, and the South Pacific Islands all have similar sounds, you know he can't really be right. He was most likely looking for something "exotic" rather than accurate, and I can understand how some people can find that offensive. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 09:57 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 02:07 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| It's been a while since I read "Green Grow the Lilacs," but in my memory, the dialect he uses is right out of the play, written by a native Oklahoman. As to SP, my memory of Bloody Mary in 'Tales of the South Pacific" is that that's the way she spoke in the stories. And, considering English is at least her third language, after Tonkinese and French, and the one most recently learned, her facility - or lack of it -- isn't that surprising. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:24 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma - StageDoorJohnny 09:57 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I won't dispute that Hammerstein may have borrowed from Riggs, Michener, et al, but...do they really say things like "womern" and "meader" in the state of Oklahoma? Do Oklahomans and people from Maine really say "keer" instead of "care"? Or "hev" instead of "have"? I've never heard ANYONE talk like that -- except in Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals lol. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:47 am EST 02/21/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma - Chromolume 10:24 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| ***I won't dispute that Hammerstein may have borrowed from Riggs, Michener, et al, but...do they really say things like "womern" and "meader" in the state of Oklahoma? Do Oklahomans and people from Maine really say "keer" instead of "care"? Or "hev" instead of "have"? I've never heard ANYONE talk like that -- except in Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals lol.**** I think all of those dialect words are Hammerstein's not necessarily successful or accurate attempts to indicate various dialects by re-spelling words, rather than by using the phonetic alphabet :-) And I think this method of doing so is always going to read as kind of silly and embarrassing, regardless of the level of accuracy. (I would say that applies to PORGY AND BESS as well, regardless of the authenticity of DuBose Heyward's life experience of the way the real-life equivalents of those characters spoke.) |
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| re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 11:39 am EST 02/21/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma - Michael_Portantiere 12:47 am EST 02/21/19 | |
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| I have heard 'meader.' I've also heard heighth for height, Warshington for the nations capital, droughth for drought (legit old time pronunciation), and i for e substitutions all over the place (pin for pen for example) I've heard 'shots' for 'shorts' in New England. In upstate NY they pronounce elementary (like school) with a long a, and mauve as mawv. If a regionalism isn't spelled out, as an approximation -- like keer or womern -- what you'll wind up with on stage is a bland standard English, which is not the author's intent. The sheet music for 'It's Delovely' used to specify pronouncing 'deluxe' as 'deloox' because that's what Porter intended. It may look or sound odd, I agree with you on that, but that doesn't negate the purpose of making the character(s) sound different or quaint rather than your neighbor next door. (another one for you -- 'loverly' in MFL, I doubt that ever came out of a Cockney's lips) | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:00 pm EST 02/21/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist?/Oklahoma - StageDoorJohnny 11:39 am EST 02/21/19 | |
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| (another one for you -- 'loverly' in MFL, I doubt that ever came out of a Cockney's lips) "Loverly" is a purposely made-up word - it has no connection to whether or not it's cockney, or any other dialect. Totally different kind of thing. |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: StanS 02:17 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 02:07 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| Thanks, now what you're saying makes more sense. I'll just say for myself that "lak" doesn't bother me, or make me feel like the character is being made fun of. It would be interesting to find out for sure how Hammerstein came up with the "accent" Mary uses in the show, what if any research he did. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:11 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 02:07 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I've always felt that dialogue written in a way that is meant to indicate a specific accent or dialect -- whether in OKLHAOMA!, CAROUSEL, SOUTH PACIFIC, PORGY AND BESS, CARMEN JONES, or whatever other show -- tends to look rather quaint and embarrassing, even if the writing of the dialect is quite accurate. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:18 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Michael_Portantiere 02:11 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I've always felt that dialogue written in a way that is meant to indicate a specific accent or dialect -- whether in OKLHAOMA!, CAROUSEL, SOUTH PACIFIC, PORGY AND BESS, CARMEN JONES, or whatever other show -- tends to look rather quaint and embarrassing, even if the writing of the dialect is quite accurate. Exactly. And really, I'm not sure they're particularly accurate in any of those shows. Being a New Englander all my life, I've yet to hear ANYONE ever say "fust" (instead of "first") or stuff like that. It's exaggerated for theatrical effect, I suppose, but it's not how anyone really speaks. |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: OldTheaterGuy 09:54 am EST 02/22/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 02:18 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| You have not heard anyone say “fust” because you live in the late 20th/early 21st century where mass media has tended to flatten out regional accents. (My husband grew up in Cornwall, England, but except when putting it on, doesn’t talk mush like a 19th century Cornishman). Hammerstein was obsessed with research. For instance, his daughter Alice recalled reading through dozens of period cookbooks to find recipes for the lyrics to This Was a Real Nice Clambake. | |
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| re: Happy Talk racist? | |
| Posted by: davidack 11:12 pm EST 02/21/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Happy Talk racist? - Chromolume 02:18 pm EST 02/20/19 | |
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| I’m really enjoying the thoughtful conversation on this topic. One of my favorite versions Is by Nancy Wilson who make it a beautiful jazz number. I suppose now she might be accused of cultural appropriation | |
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