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| MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 09:35 pm EST 02/23/19 | |
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| While MERRILY WE ROLL ALONG was in previews, I saw nothing but glowing reviews on ATC. The second the newspaper and internet reviews came out almost unanimously saying how mediocre the production is, all the ATC posts about the show say it’s terrible. Have the professional reviews colored how we see the production? |
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| re: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? | |
| Posted by: mattyp4 04:31 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? - Zelgo 09:35 pm EST 02/23/19 | |
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| I think some of it has to do with the type of theater fans that go to these early previews, excited to report back to others. Like they want to be some sort of theater influencer or something. I find that the eagerness to share their thoughts often results in hyperbolic praise, so by the time the rest of the fans & critics see the show the reaction is tempered & more muted. I witnessed this firsthand during the second preview performance of Something Rotten on Broadway. The theater was full of young, impressionable zealous theater fans thanks to a $15.95 ticket promotion. At intermission the audience exploded & went crazy. The chatter was intense & hyperbolic. I witnessed a young girl in front of me dial her friend & breathlessly tell her that she just saw the first half of one of the greatest musicals ever written. A lot of that "buzz" was mirrored on ATC. Then after a week or two the enthusiasm was tempered with calmer, though still generally positive feedback. I notice the same thing happens with film bloggers during festival season. I tune out a lot of the festival buzz b/c it's mostly bloggers either wanting to bestow a film as the next greatest thing or bragging about attending early screenings. I generally don't get excited for a movie until the professional critics weigh in. |
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| re: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? | |
| Posted by: pagates 10:35 am EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? - Zelgo 09:35 pm EST 02/23/19 | |
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| I also wondered at the time whether that was a factor in the audience response when I saw Friday. I’d never seen Merrily, though I was familiar with the story, its history and its music. I had very much been looking forward to seeing it … until Green's review deflated my anticipation. Reading Sergius concerned me even more as I greatly respect his judgment. As usual what he said is very helpful (though I think I liked it more than he). The book seems decidedly problematic; I can’t judge whether this production exacerbates or resolves any of its weaknesses, never having seen a different production. But I affirm that its streamlining and focus on the story makes what's happening clear. The people I saw it with who were most disappointed were people who had seen other productions. I confess: I loved the Hytner Carousel; I thought it transformed that show to a deep level of greatness. I endorse Sondheim’s view; I too love actors who can sing. So whatever vocal deficiencies the cast may have, they were not a problem for me. I also love this Merrily. I encourage others to see it. It’s an absorbingly interesting depiction of ideas. It boldly communicates the challenges of lives intersecting around friendship, love, work and play. It speaks thoughtfully and movingly about the shifting sands of hopes, dreams and expectations as they surface and sink in the characters’ abilities, talents and needs. I suspect its conceptual thickness plays a large role in what makes it such a difficult show to mount. It reminded me a bit of Company in being more like a staged/musicalized concept draped around a story rather than a story that illuminates concepts, most particularly in song — which, as others suggest, given the thinness of this production may undermine some of its power. But that said, this very thinness added a highly valuable human dimension. No, it’s not perfect, but it is deeply engaging — at levels that much of what I’ve seen in recent years is not. It has weaknesses, but it still connects and awakens the viewer with interior realities in a meaningful way. |
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| JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM: One Theory... | |
| Posted by: Vivian 07:42 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: re: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? - pagates 10:35 am EST 02/24/19 | |
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| HI, I have a theory of why Jesse Green hated the OUTSTANDING Fiasco MWRA.I think Jesse is an AUDITORY learner, as opposed to a VISUAL learner. This is why he loved the musically exceptional original MWRA, which was a VISUAL trainwreck: 28 actors standing around looking lost, like they were waiting for a train in Grand Central Station, and an eyesore of a set and costumes. It was painful to watch, but if you had your eyes closed, BRILLIANT. Meanwhile, this Fiasco show is less musically accomplished while narratively and visually clear and very heartfelt and elegantly executed. This is one theory that would explain Jesse Green's misguided, wrongheaded review. |
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| re: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM IS NOT A PROBLEM. MERRILY IS THE PROBLEM | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 09:35 am EST 02/25/19 | |
| In reply to: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM: One Theory... - Vivian 07:42 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
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| Well, maybe. I love Fiasco. But the Fiasco-ising of MWRA is not the main culprit here. The culprit is the book. No one has every wrestled it into shape. I saw the original. I saw the Donmar Warehouse. I saw the recent London revival. I saw a regional theatre production. I saw it in concert. I saw this production. The book sinks them all. As the book sinks CANDIDE, and sinks FOLLIES, and sinks SHE LOVES ME ... I could go on. (although the latter is really the problem of not spending the money to license the film, rather than the source of the film. Scene by scebe, the film tells thestory better, and would have made a better musical) We ALL want to love MERRILY. Every time we see it we think there will be a revelation! And somewhere about the half hour mark our hearts sink, cuz the book just doesnt work, no matter how much they tinker. Great score lost in a mediocre book. The story of so many Broadway shows. |
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| They had the rights to the movie | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 06:30 pm EST 02/25/19 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:30 pm EST 02/25/19 | |
| In reply to: re: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM IS NOT A PROBLEM. MERRILY IS THE PROBLEM - NewtonUK 09:35 am EST 02/25/19 | |
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| They absolutely had the rights to the movie. They worked primarily from the movie. MGM didn't want to give them the rights at first, and it had nothing to do with money. It had to do with Lawrence Kasha not being a big enough producer. When Hal Prince came on board, they got the rights to the movie with no problem, but they'd been working from it all along. All the press releases I've seen leading up to the production mention only the movie. It seems that there was some sort of contractual thing that made it necessary for them to list only the author of the original play in the credits. Have you seen or read the play? | |
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| re: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM IS NOT A PROBLEM. MERRILY IS THE PROBLEM | |
| Posted by: larry13 11:26 am EST 02/25/19 | |
| In reply to: re: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM IS NOT A PROBLEM. MERRILY IS THE PROBLEM - NewtonUK 09:35 am EST 02/25/19 | |
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| I never saw "The Shop Around the Corner" so I won't argue with you that it tells the story better than SHE LOVES ME. But to lump that musical's book with the others you cite and state that it "sinks SHE LOVES ME" is not only ridiculous but it makes anyone question your whole post(which otherwise does make a very good point). SHE LOVES ME is considered by many as a perfect musical and not just because of the great Bock/Harnick score. | |
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| re: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM IS NOT A PROBLEM. MERRILY IS THE PROBLEM | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 05:06 pm EST 02/25/19 | |
| In reply to: re: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM IS NOT A PROBLEM. MERRILY IS THE PROBLEM - larry13 11:26 am EST 02/25/19 | |
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| Agreed. The book to She Loves Me is wonderful. Plus, this shouldn't be about comparing a musical to its source, as much as it should be about looking at the musical on its own terms. |
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| re: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM IS NOT A PROBLEM. MERRILY IS THE PROBLEM | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:38 pm EST 02/25/19 | |
| In reply to: re: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM IS NOT A PROBLEM. MERRILY IS THE PROBLEM - larry13 11:26 am EST 02/25/19 | |
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| I had the same reaction as you. We all get to have our opinions of every show, but sometimes such expressions cannot bear their own weight. | |
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| re: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM: One Theory... | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:58 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM: One Theory... - Vivian 07:42 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
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| As someone who loved the original production, I guess I'm also an auditory learner. :) I think by the time it opened, it looked just fine. Not brilliant, but fine. (A few of the critics did feel that way, too, for whatever that's worth.) And the cast was superb, and Prince's direction had both detail and throughline. Was it perfect? No. Were there places where, even after the great improvements to musical staging put in by Larry Fuller, the musical staging looked underdone because there were limits to what the cast could do? Sure. But the strengths far outweighed the weaknesses, at least for this observer. |
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| re: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM: One Theory... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:57 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM: One Theory... - Vivian 07:42 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
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| Meanwhile, this Fiasco show is less musically accomplished.... I can't, for the life of me, understand this kind of excuse. It's a musical. It needs to sound good. There are other things that need to be good about it too, but I don't see the point of a musical that doesn't sound musically accomplished. They could have done the Kaufman and Hart play, after all. If you're seeing a complex, verbose play, and it's clear that none of the actors are skilled in speaking their lines, would you give them the benefit of the doubt because the show was "narratively and visually clear and very heartfelt and elegantly executed"? No, I think you'd leave after intermission if there was one. |
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| The theory of learner's having different dominate modalities has been disproven. | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 07:56 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: JESSE GREEN'S PROBLEM: One Theory... - Vivian 07:42 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
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| Even if education schools continue to promote the idea. | |
| Link | Link to my latest book "Playing for Prizes" |
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| re: The theory of Lerner's having different dominant modalities has been disproven. | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 11:46 pm EST 02/25/19 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:46 pm EST 02/25/19 | |
| In reply to: The theory of learner's having different dominate modalities has been disproven. - tmdonahue 07:56 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
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| Lerner wrote the lyrics. It would have been Loewe or Lane (among others) who wrote the dominant modalities, depending on the show. :-) |
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| I love you, Chromolume! | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 01:13 pm EST 02/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: The theory of Lerner's having different dominant modalities has been disproven. - Chromolume 11:46 pm EST 02/25/19 | |
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| I needed that. Laura, who also loves antibiotics |
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| re: The theory of learner's having different dominate modalities has been disproven. | |
| Posted by: Vivian 09:53 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: The theory of learner's having different dominate modalities has been disproven. - tmdonahue 07:56 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
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| Thanks for plugging your book, which has NOTHING to do with the topic under discussion. And for someone who knows so much about education and the latest educational ideology and scholarship, you miss-spelled "learners". Just sayin'. |
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| re: The theory of learner's having different dominate modalities has been disproven. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:57 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: re: The theory of learner's having different dominate modalities has been disproven. - Vivian 09:53 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
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| There are no rules but rule # 1: if you're gonna correct someone's spelling, make damn sure you have spelled everything correctly yourself. LOL |
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| YES - a really important phenomenon | |
| Posted by: D2025 03:17 am EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? - Zelgo 09:35 pm EST 02/23/19 | |
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| I so appreciate you raising this. As a writer and actor, I have seen this happen both ways both to my work and others. Audiences go from loving something to lukewarm. Or from lukewarm to really loving something. It is really unfortunate when this happens. But there are still works I've loved even after reading pans. All we can ask is for people to go in with open minds. The big thing it can do is kill ticket sales... | |
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| re: YES - a really important phenomenon | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:19 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: YES - a really important phenomenon - D2025 03:17 am EST 02/24/19 | |
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| I think that general audiences who see shows after the reviews come out are generally affected by them. They expect to like something or not based on the reviews (or sometimes simply their knowledge or perception, without having read the reviews, that a show got good reviews or bad reviews). Of course, plenty of people still end up not liking something that they know got good reviews or, perhaps less often, liking something that they know didn't get good reviews. I think that on ATC, however, most of the regular posters really are more independent in their thinking. Not all of us, but a lot of us. And I don't think it's just folks on ATC who are independent in their thinking. I think in general people who are very serious in their theatregoing, people who see a lot, are less swayed by reviews. This is all speaking generally, of course. |
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| re: YES - a really important phenomenon | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 05:39 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: YES - a really important phenomenon - D2025 03:17 am EST 02/24/19 | |
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| I had just seen the 1996 production of STATE FAIR and loved it when I walked into a theater district bar, I told someone at the bar that I had just seen it. And he said "Ugh, really?" And then I asked him if he had seen it. He HADN'T! It's amazing how people hate shows they haven't seen. I think I've done it a few times too. Guilty! | |
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| re: YES - a really important phenomenon | |
| Posted by: 37Rubydog 11:30 am EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: YES - a really important phenomenon - D2025 03:17 am EST 02/24/19 | |
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| Daddy seems to be another work where there is some disagreement - although much of the disagreement is whether it is interesting and promising vs self-indulgent... For me it shared stylistic elements of Slave Play...while also raising a slew of issues/themes etc. I liked the work and the performances...but for me it is a lot to digest. Let’s see what the critics say and what posters say after. |
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| re: YES - a really important phenomenon | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:18 am EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: YES - a really important phenomenon - D2025 03:17 am EST 02/24/19 | |
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| I think you are referring to a different phenomenon-that audiences get better or worse after they have read reviews. (Ann also mentions this below, and I do not disagree with that at all.) I took the OP to be writing about the posting of opinions that are more negative once (negative) reviews come out. FWIW I am not someone who posts a lot of reviews/opinions on shows, but when I do early on (i.e., after seeing an early preview) it is I think always to alert folks to something I think they might like but might overlook. I cannot imagine posting to tell people not to see something but as things go on I occasionally post (in either direction) to a thread where opinions in both directions are being expressed or (even more likely) where I think a person has misapprehended something about a show. But I also think many of us have different ways of interacting with this board so it is not possible or wise to generalize. |
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| re: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? | |
| Posted by: BillEadie 03:09 am EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? - Zelgo 09:35 pm EST 02/23/19 | |
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| I was surprised that TB didn’t review it (double checked the Off-Broadway reviews page). I realize that TB can’t get to every OB opening, but I figured someone would cover this one. It seemed to me that the Green pan in the Times might have “given permission” to those with negative comments to express them more forcefully. I doubt that the effect was more substantial than that, though. Bill, in San Diego |
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| re: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 12:34 am EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? - Zelgo 09:35 pm EST 02/23/19 | |
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| Posts here from winters, Kjsgroovy and tealady during previews were not very positive. They're still here. None of them started a thread, but they replied to threads from others. There were more positive posts than mixed or negative ones, but the praise was not universal. Also, some of the print and internet reviews were favorable. Some of my friends liked it (though with some reservations), and some didn't (some of them strongly), and they all saw it during previews. |
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| Not to mention ... | |
| Posted by: Ann 06:09 am EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: re: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? - AlanScott 12:34 am EST 02/24/19 | |
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| ... that there were more than a month of preview performances, and only four days of performances after the reviews, so not a good sample anyway. I agree with another post that it's more likely that, in general on a board like this, people may simply feel more comfortable about posting their negative report after a show has been poorly reviewed. Also, people who are more likely to like a show will rush to see it earlier (though, with a Sondheim show, that can work the other way). And there's the preview vs. post-opening thing (forgiving some things when a show is in previews in case they get fixed). In general, though, audiences often do react with the reviews - both ways. I don't think this is where that really happens. |
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| re: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:05 pm EST 02/23/19 | |
| In reply to: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? - Zelgo 09:35 pm EST 02/23/19 | |
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| It will come as a surprise to no one that "we" do not speak with a unified voice. (On anything!) I also cannot imagine that in general "we" say nice things pre-review. I think many would say just the opposite. Are you aware of any individual opinions that were changed post-reviews in this case? (I confess I haven't kept up with that.) To me the more apt question may be whether people who had a negative reaction before posting anything and then seeing a bunch of positive reactions tend to not post because they don't want to "rain on the parade" at least until the reviews give them some sort of license to do so. I think there may well be SOME people who would do that, but I don't think "we" do that either. Perhaps there is some deeper meaning here. Or some lesser meaning: that people predisposed to liking the show may have gone sooner rather than later. Curious if others see something notable that I don't... |
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| What Broadway League surveys say about the impact of reviews | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 09:26 am EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: re: MERRILY: How much do reviews affects our views? - ryhog 11:05 pm EST 02/23/19 | |
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| The League audience survey asks surveyed audience members the source(s) of information about the show they just saw. Some of the answers: Google (of course) 56% Friends/Family/Acquaintances (aka "word of mouth") 21.3% NY Times 16.9% The New Yorker 6.6% and the other printed review sources are lower than that. Printed sources include advertisements, public relation articles, etc, in addition to reviews. The belief of producers is that word of mouth is the most important promotion for a show. Also, some economists correlated reviews with length of run (getting profits for a show is hard but length of run is easy) and found that reviews in the NY Times were slightly negatively correlated with length of run! That is, if the Times likes a show, audiences may not like the show. Reviews in the NY Post were slightly positively correlated with length of run. I surmise from this that the taste of the Times is different than the taste of its readers--slightly--but the Post is closer to the taste of its readers--slightly. This is not to say that posters on ATC may not be encouraged to express their negative opinions of a given show after negative reviews have been printed. On the other hand, the writers on ATC seem to me quite free to post minority opinions, without fear of disagreement. |
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| Link | Link to my latest book "Playing for Prizes" |
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| re: What Broadway League surveys say about the impact of reviews | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:27 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: What Broadway League surveys say about the impact of reviews - tmdonahue 09:26 am EST 02/24/19 | |
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| as I recall, that putative economist's analysis was pretty squarely debunked at the time. It now also suffers from being dated by changes in the Post's commitment to reviewing in the first place. Beyond that, for anyone who seriously thinks something positive about Post reviews at any time, I suggest following the money instead of the nonsense: no one spends money appealing to Post readers. That's all the evidence you should need. | |
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| re: What Broadway League surveys say about the impact of reviews | |
| Posted by: mikem 01:22 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: What Broadway League surveys say about the impact of reviews - tmdonahue 09:26 am EST 02/24/19 | |
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| I wonder if the negative correlation with the Times, but not the Post, is because the Times often raves about limited runs of plays, and is often more lukewarm about open-run musicals. A flop musical will often still have a longer run than a limited run play. I wonder if that negative correlation is still true if one looks at plays and musicals (or limited runs vs open-ended runs) separately. | |
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| Both excellent responses | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 07:46 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
| In reply to: re: What Broadway League surveys say about the impact of reviews - mikem 01:22 pm EST 02/24/19 | |
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| Link | Link to my latest book "Playing for Prizes" |
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