Threaded Order Chronological Order
| did anyone see a Fosca besides Donna in the original PASSION? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:54 am EST 03/01/19 | |
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| I don't remember having ever heard about an understudy, alternate or replacement. Did Donna do the entire run? Was there an understudy who went on and was great? | |
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| Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 05:23 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: did anyone see a Fosca besides Donna in the original PASSION? - Chazwaza 02:54 am EST 03/01/19 | |
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| Sadly, I've never seen it live. I've only seen taped productions. But I'm convinced that Fosca is one of the hardest roles in the entire canon, not just the Sondheim canon, and I'm not exactly sure WHAT Fosca needs to do to make you care about her, view her as sympathetic and lovely, instead of controlling and pathetic. How did Ms. Murphy (or any other Fosca) pull it off? Can the audience feel ambivalent about Fosca and still find the work satisfying? Do they NEED to be rooting for her? And if the audience isn't pulling for her, but really wants to see Giorgio end up with Clara, does the whole show fail to move us as we should? From the outside, it really doesn't seem to me that Sondheim or Lapine did the role many favors in the writing. It just seems like a herculean lift to make the audience -- and Giorgio -- want what she wants. Any observations / analysis from someone who's spent more time with the piece than I have? - GMB |
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| It’s not a sporting event | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 10:19 pm EST 03/03/19 | |
| In reply to: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? - GrumpyMorningBoy 05:23 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| Theater doesn’t require a character for you to root for. A show like PASSION is more complicated than that. | |
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| re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:12 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? - GrumpyMorningBoy 05:23 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| "I'm not exactly sure WHAT Fosca needs to do to make you care about her, view her as sympathetic and lovely, instead of controlling and pathetic." I don't want to see Fosca sympathetic and lovely. What's the point of the show if she's played that way? That was one of the problems I had with the CSC production. Fosca seemed just very mildly depressed, basically pretty nice, and simply in need of a slight makeover to look like Giorgio's attractive if somewhat older wife. |
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| re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? | |
| Posted by: Ann 05:25 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? - GrumpyMorningBoy 05:23 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| I think the show really makes the audience squirm in how we react to Fosca. I usually go back and forth between being repulsed and rooting for her. It's what makes the musical so wonderful. Oh, and the score. Honestly, I don't remember ever really wanting Giorgio to end up with Clara. |
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| re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 05:43 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? - Ann 05:25 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| I think the SHOW is supposed to make us squirm, at so many moments, and although Sondheim has said that he needed to allow himself to experience true love to know how to write this, I am still not sure that I want to hear the way love sounds to Sondheim. It sounds like drums? And piercing minor chords? Don't get me wrong. PASSION gets under my skin just like it gets under everybody's who loves Sondheim. But there are parts of the score I genuinely love, and other parts I nearly detest. More than anything, though, I just admire how ballsy Sondheim was to write it the way he did. This score is ballsy AF. And I love him for having that courage. - GMB |
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| re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:31 pm EST 03/02/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? - GrumpyMorningBoy 05:43 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| I'm very curious what parts of the score you nearly detest. As a huge fan of the score, it's hard to imagine but I am curious. I feel like for most people the style of the score and its themes and motifs hook you, or they do not. The only parts I don't love as much are parts of the Soldier's Gossip, but even that I find enjoyable and servicing that part of the story/those character/the commenting on it that the audience needs/world building. | |
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| -- what I adore in Sondheim's writing for PASSION (and what I don't) | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 03:38 am EST 03/04/19 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 03:31 am EST 03/04/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? - Chazwaza 11:31 pm EST 03/02/19 | |
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| I got the CD of PASSION the week it showed up at my local Borders Book Store. So... i've been sitting with this music for 20+ years. In that time, as I've aged, I've found that the whole piece makes a WHOLE LOT MORE SENSE now then it did when I was a young adult. In some ways, it's grown on me. But more than anything, I've come to realize just how unique and ballsy it was. I supposed, at the time, that we'd see / hear more musicals that resembled PASSION, and Sondheim was just ahead of the pack. I do think that some of LaChiusa's works (especially MARIE CHRISTINE) sit in a kind of similar space, tonally, but even within the full Sondheim canon, PASSION is a very rare bird. And as I write above, I do think that Sondheim's decisions on what love sounds like are trenemdously unique. I think the "your love will live in me" motif -- sung by Fosca (and by Clara as "how long were we apart") and then and repeated by the entire cast in the Finale -- is what love, at least in this piece, sounds like to Sondheim. It sounds unresolved. That melody just slips through those chords without ever landing happily on the tonic. My FAVORITE writing is the "Flashback" sequence. It's friggin genius. Up there with SWEENEY. The angular dissonance of the harmonies on "beauty is power / longing a disease" are, to me, the core of the entire musical. But the way the whole thing envelops spoken word / sung recitative, and knows exactly when to transition back and forth between the two, is arguably some of Sondheim's most skillfull writing of all time. The way he weaves real waltzes into the writing does (at times) evoke a bit of NIGHT MUSIC -- but how could it not, being in 3 -- but it works brilliantly here as a pattern that comments on the mores of the time. The way things are. The sexism, gender expectations, and limitations of being a woman are delivered in waltzes. I also LOVE the way that Greg Edelmann's character emerges here as a rare empath who shows true compassion for Fosca, and I adore the way their two melodies meet on the final note of on "it took her months to leave her bed." That's empathy, musicalized. I could go on and on about this sequence. I think it's astonishing. My biggest beefs with the score are the tone of some of the songs. I think a lot of the writing for Giorgio fails to reach the heights of the writing for Fosca. As a result, Giorgio, in the end, comes off as a bit emotionally immature in comparison to the other characters. I'm not sure if Sondheim musicalized the subtext as well as he could have. "Is This What You Call Love," as Georgio essentially scolds Fosca, is too one note for me, to be rather on the nose about it. I think the emotions of the lyric are far more complex than the music Sondheim composed here, which sounds a bit like a manic temper tantrum from someone who, frankly, needs to calm down. I'm not a composer, but if I were, I'd have matched that lyric with a melody that had more dynamics and complexity. I understand that it works to raise the stakes of the piece, and maybe that's why he wrote it this way, but I think it's a missed opportunity for a more nuanced exploration of those emotions from Giorgio. I like where the melody goes in the 'bridge' section -- "Love's, not a constant demand, it's a gift you bestow." Do you hear how Sondhem is trying to give Georgio the chance to change his tone of voice there? Sondheim's instinct was right. He should have applied that to the whole song. And finally, I'm really not convinced by the writing for "No One Has Ever Loved Me." It's probably the most important musical moment of the entire show, and I really don't think Sondheim's writing rises to the occasion. His melody on the opening lyric really isn't bad. Nice chromatics, nice range, nice inversion as it goes up. But from there, Sondheim pens a bit of a list about the things love is -- rather 1 Corinthians 13, no? -- and matches it to a melody that's banal and drab. Even the chords don't do anything all that interesting. It's like Sondheim had half a good melody in his mind to open this piece, but didn't know how to carry it forward and spin it into something more beautiful. God bless Jonathan Tunick, who really tries to dress it all up with some nice strings floating on top, but it's just not enough. I do think he knew that he hadn't struck gold there. Giorgio sings that thing once, and then they get OUTTA THERE, into the words! (with a little treat so Fosca can reprise "Happiness," which is the best melody of the whole show.) I think the score is uneven, yes. But when it's good, it's very, very good. This thread is many days old now and I'm not sure if anyone will read this, but it's been nice to put thoughts into words. :) - GMB |
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| re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:15 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? - GrumpyMorningBoy 05:43 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| "although Sondheim has said that he needed to allow himself to experience true love to know how to write this" Are you sure he said this? I think Sondheim has several times said that people say that about him and the show, but that he's never said that. |
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| Quote from Sondheim | |
| Last Edit: T.B._Admin. 09:56 am EST 03/03/19 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:16 am EST 03/03/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? - AlanScott 09:15 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| This is from a 2007 podcast interview with Sondheim, conducted by Norman Lebrecht (a name I hate to even type). Lebrecht (discussing Passion): Meryle Secrest, in your biography, suggests that it’s to do with the coming of love in your life, a powerful intimate relationship in your sixties. Is . . . . ? Sondheim (interrupting him): That’s completely nonsense because I wanted to do that show long before that ever happened to me. I saw the movie in . . . whatever year it was . . . nineteen-eighty (trailing off) . . . I’d say nineteen eighty-three. In this country anyway. I wanted to do it immediately. It's hard to punctuate that clearly, but Sondheim really interrupted him. NL was not at a temporary loss for words, as the ellipsis may suggest. He would have said more, but Sondheim was having none of it. He would not let that statement stand. |
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| THANK YOU for this... I'd been thinking of the Secrest biography. That was my only source. (nm) | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 02:44 am EST 03/04/19 | |
| In reply to: Quote from Sondheim - AlanScott 04:16 am EST 03/03/19 | |
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| nm means naughty Meryle! | |
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| LOL. That is very funny. (nm) | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:11 am EST 03/04/19 | |
| In reply to: THANK YOU for this... I'd been thinking of the Secrest biography. That was my only source. (nm) - GrumpyMorningBoy 02:44 am EST 03/04/19 | |
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| Naughty Meryle. | |
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| re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 06:32 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? - GrumpyMorningBoy 05:43 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| Okay, so I decided to put on the score while I try to work. First off, I have to amend the comment above. They hear drums. We hear music. Those drums aren't supposed to sound like love, apparently. BUT DAMN, Fosca is SO COMPLETELY IN THE WRONG during the "Garden Sequence"! Like, that is NOT OKAY. You don't just chew out someone who you've known for weeks, and think that this is the right approach to get someone to be your "friend"... GIRL. No. We need to get Laura Benanti's opinion on this. Link below. - GMB |
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| Link | "LIFE WITH LAURA": Laura Benanti is "Fosca," the New Favorite Times Square Mascot |
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| re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:01 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? - GrumpyMorningBoy 06:32 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| The "drums/music" reference is, I think, more to a simple bond between people - not specifically love. She's trying to tell Giorgio that she perceives him differently from the rest of the soldiers. "Perhaps it was the way you walked, the way you spoke to your men," she sings. He sees a man who (true or not) hears a beauty in something like a simple drumbeat, while for the others it's just a beat to march in line to. He, like she, she says, sees beauty in things where there doesn't seem to be beauty. I also love the way Fosca has to keep clarifying her thoughts (the wonderful wordplay with we/they and same/different): "They hear drums, You hear music, As do I, Don't you see? We're the same, We are different, You and I are different, They hear only drums..." |
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| re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 07:35 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? - GrumpyMorningBoy 06:32 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| In the words of John Bucchino: "One hates that leading character in proportion to how desperately they've shown their own need." | |
| Link | Playbill by Lupone |
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| re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:19 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? - Quicheo 07:35 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| I do tend to think that's basically correct. I think that the people who react most negatively to the character (when she's portrayed warts and all) are those who've behaved (or at least felt) similarly themselves or perhaps experienced others who've behaved that way to them. I've felt this way since previews way back when. One time I sat in front of two people who just couldn't stop laughing at and commenting on Fosca, and I had to restrain myself from saying to them, "Why do you feel so threatened by this character's behavior?" |
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| re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 11:25 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Can we discuss / analyze? What's really required for a Fosca performance to work? - AlanScott 09:19 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| It is quite something to create a character that engenders so much projection. | |
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| I saw Balgord go on for Murphy... | |
| Last Edit: GabbyGerard 04:11 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| Posted by: GabbyGerard 04:02 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: did anyone see a Fosca besides Donna in the original PASSION? - Chazwaza 02:54 am EST 03/01/19 | |
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| ...though I don't know if it was a scheduled or unscheduled absence. She was fantastic. I remember thinking that I was watching one of Broadway's next great leading ladies (which, despite a solid career, hasn't really proven to be the case). When she was announced for the Sunset tour a year or two after Passion closed, it struck me as thrilling casting. It does not necessarily take anything away from Balgord's achievement in Passion, but when I did see Murphy, I realized that Balgord had done a really, REALLY good Donna Murphy impression. Murphy was better--her Fosca has to rank as one of the top five or ten best musical theatre performance of my lifetime--but I doubt anyone left the Balgord performance dissatisfied with the performance (especially the vocal performance) and, looking back on it now, I don't know if I've ever seen an understudy wear her leading lady's choices more convincingly. |
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| re: I saw Balgord go on for Murphy... | |
| Posted by: larry13 10:19 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: I saw Balgord go on for Murphy... - GabbyGerard 04:02 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| As I remember with pleasure Balgord's wonderful performance as Elizabeth I in PIRATE QUEEN, I would love to see and hear her in roles like Fosca or Rose(which I see she was standby for LuPone). Did she ever go on for Patti? | |
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| She went on as Rose at least once. | |
| Posted by: GabbyGerard 10:33 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: I saw Balgord go on for Murphy... - larry13 10:19 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| Patti missed at least two performances—once, early in the run, when Lenora Nemetz went on for her, and once around Tony time when Balgord went on for her. She may have missed more, but I don’t remember hearing about it. There’s audio of Balgord’s Rose out there. I don’t think it’s a great fit. Her voice sounds too legit singing the music; I want more brassy, Broadway belt in Rose’s songs. Dramatically, she has the same sense of elegance and refinement that made her so convincing in Sunset and The Pirate Queen—but it’s wrong for common, aspirational Rose. (Interesting connection: I remember critics complaining that Patti seemed too common for Norma.) |
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| re: She went on as Rose at least once. | |
| Posted by: larry13 11:01 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: She went on as Rose at least once. - GabbyGerard 10:33 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| Thank you for the answer and for very interesting comments about Balgord and LuPone. | |
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| re: did anyone see a Fosca besides Donna in the original PASSION? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:50 am EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: did anyone see a Fosca besides Donna in the original PASSION? - Chazwaza 02:54 am EST 03/01/19 | |
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| Linda Balgord was the understudy. She went on at least once, when Donna Murphy had a scheduled absence. I think perhaps she went on another two or three times, but not very much. Murphy did not miss many performances. It may be that the scheduled absence was the only time she went on. I'm not sure. | |
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| Addition | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:19 am EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: did anyone see a Fosca besides Donna in the original PASSION? - AlanScott 06:50 am EST 03/01/19 | |
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| I should have checked before posting. There were two understudies: Balgord and Colleen Fitzpatrick, but I think it was Balgord who went on for that first scheduled absence (and I think for any other missed performances, of which, again, I think there were very few if any). I should go find the Sondheim Review article on Balgord's scheduled performance. I know where it is, but I just don't feel like getting it right now. :) |
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| re: Addition | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 12:16 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: Addition - AlanScott 07:19 am EST 03/01/19 | |
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| Patti Lupone on PBS. Judy Kuhn in Washington. | |
| Link | Link to my latest book "Playing for Prizes" |
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| re: Addition | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 12:25 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Addition - tmdonahue 12:16 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| Kuhn in Washington and then later in John Doyle's off-bway revival, which got a CD cast recording (which I somehow still haven't listened to - i ADORE Passion and Kuhn, but maybe my fear of what Doyle did with it has kept me from it) | |
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| I was hesitant, too | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 05:58 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Addition - Chazwaza 12:25 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| But we listened to it on a road trip last year--it's virtually the entire show, dialogue and all. If Doyle made odd choices in the staging, they're not obvious aurally. And Kuhn and Luker (the latter subbing for Melissa Errico)--whom I saw at the Kennedy Center--now have their takes on these indelible characters preserved. Laura, who admits tooling down the I-5 with neurotic Italians singing about their obsessive love may not be to everyone's taste... |
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| who could guess this of all shows would have THREE cast recordings and a DVD of the original production AND a PBS broadcast concert? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:56 pm EST 03/02/19 | |
| In reply to: I was hesitant, too - showtunetrivia 05:58 pm EST 03/01/19 | |
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| One of the weirdest and most unlikely and unpopular shows to ever win Best Musical... never even revived on broadway... and it has ALL those recordings. It's pretty damn amazing. | |
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| re: who could guess this of all shows would have THREE cast recordings and a DVD of the original production AND a PBS broadcast concert? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 05:56 pm EST 03/02/19 | |
| In reply to: who could guess this of all shows would have THREE cast recordings and a DVD of the original production AND a PBS broadcast concert? - Chazwaza 04:56 pm EST 03/02/19 | |
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| I think if Beauty and the Beast had been written and produced directly for Broadway instead of being an animated film musical first, it would have won the Best Musical Tony and Passion would have been a highly praised but very short-lived Broadway show. However, timing is everything. A Sondheim show that wins a lot of Tonys (including the big prize) is destined to be revived with stellar casts (guaranteeing multiple recordings) and to get a PBS broadcast and DVD release just like Sweeney Todd, Sunday in the Park with George, and Into the Woods. | |
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| re: who could guess this of all shows would have THREE cast recordings and a DVD of the original production AND a PBS broadcast concert? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:25 pm EST 03/02/19 | |
| In reply to: re: who could guess this of all shows would have THREE cast recordings and a DVD of the original production AND a PBS broadcast concert? - BroadwayTonyJ 05:56 pm EST 03/02/19 | |
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| And yet FOLLIES, undeniably considered one of his actual masterworks (much moreso to many more people than Passion), which has had so many revivals, was never filmed for American TV broadcast. I just think this is an especially odd one to have gotten so much exposure and documentation. I'm glad it has though. I'm surprised, however, that it hasn't happened for other Sondheim shows like Assassins which hasn't even had a concert Broadcast either. But it still has never gotten or even been largely rumored to have a major Broadway revival. I wonder if/when that will happen. I really do think Lady Gaga would be a fantastic person to try her hand at Fosca. And as for B&TB, I love the movie, it's charming and beautiful and infectious, but I do not think it is on the level people want it to be and is very much a musical that mostly sounds like it was written for kids. I am not sure, in 1994, if it would have won if developed specifically for the stage. I think any year after that it would have won being a Disney movie property, but only because of that. It lost because the was a Disney backlash, but that didn't last long. I'd say the same for Aladdin, which is even less adult in writing than B&TB, but that would never have won even when Disney was being embraced, and I am not sure B&TB ever would either unless the competition was really poor or mediocre jukebox. |
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| re: who could guess this of all shows would have THREE cast recordings and a DVD of the original production AND a PBS broadcast concert? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:52 pm EST 03/03/19 | |
| In reply to: re: who could guess this of all shows would have THREE cast recordings and a DVD of the original production AND a PBS broadcast concert? - Chazwaza 11:25 pm EST 03/02/19 | |
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| And yet FOLLIES, undeniably considered one of his actual masterworks (much moreso to many more people than Passion), which has had so many revivals, was never filmed for American TV broadcast. "So many revivals" is actually only 2. (Plus the Avery Fisher concert and the Encores concert.) I do think it's a shame that the most recent revival wasn't filmed for broadcast/DVD. And, it's also a shame that the documentary on the Avery Fisher concert didn't include more of the performance (when it came out, didn't we all think it would actually be the show itself?), even though the score and "book" were heavily adapted for that specific concert (also a real disappointment at the time.) Don't forget that we didn't get an American TV showing of any original production of a Sondheim show until Sweeney Todd, and that was filmed on tour, not on Broadway. The first Broadway production to be shown was Sunday In The Park, already more than a decade later than Follies. It's probable that they weren't even thinking about filming it for TV at the time. I happen to love Passion, but I tend to wonder if it's ultimately better in a smaller venue - and it has had productions both off-Broadway and in regional theatres. Much as I love it, it's the kind of show that I don't normally think of as a natural for a big Broadway revival. As for Beauty And The Beast, speaking as a musical director, I've done it once, and have turned down 2 subsequent offers to do it (in both cases I had other competing/better offers, but still...) - so that should tell you how I feel about the show lol. However, I did like the animated film quite a bit. |
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| re: who could guess this of all shows would have THREE cast recordings and a DVD of the original production AND a PBS broadcast concert? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 05:06 am EST 03/05/19 | |
| In reply to: re: who could guess this of all shows would have THREE cast recordings and a DVD of the original production AND a PBS broadcast concert? - Chromolume 06:52 pm EST 03/03/19 | |
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| I didn't just mean in NYC... Papermill was a MAJOR revival, enough to warrant a full cast recording, and was meant to transfer but was stopped by Bobbi Goldman. Also, they can call them what they want, but Encores isn't a concert... so that counts, and that or Papermill could easily have been chosen to be filmed for tv broadcast. And then the 2 full Broadway revivals. There have also been, what, 3 West End productions? | |
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