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| How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Pashacar 10:03 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| Serious question; I don't know the mechanics here. Saw Superhero last night, and the critics were right; it's a complete mess on every level other than design. It's the first show in a while where I felt like I fully wasted the 2 hours. *But* it got me thinking about how something that feels like it was thrown together in a day makes it to a stage as big as Second Stage, without enough text edits to make it even passable. Are these shows bought sight-unseen by the theatres because of the creative teams' pedigrees? Or is there another process? There have been quite a few awful shows of late on similar stages, also with creative teams who've had big successes -- and happen to be white men (This Ain't No Disco, Alice By Heart). Yet I'd imagine part of the producing process at a theatre like that is developing the book and songs; or when you're "big" enough, do you have all the say? Any insight would be appreciated. |
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| It was very developed; including via the O’Neill | |
| Last Edit: Delvino 09:44 am EST 03/08/19 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 09:41 am EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Pashacar 10:03 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| There’s no finer pedigree than the O’Neill for the incremental incubation of new work. Plays and musicals are taken apart and reassembled like puzzles. Some material arrives with the problems baked it. New songs, more clarity in corrected storytelling scene by scene can smooth out confusing moments and sharpen others theatrically. But some stories are conceptually flawed, or at least the wrong premise for extended dramatization. Development often improves the craft but can’t make audiences invest. Sometimes even with fraught, intense plotting the relatable stakes are mysterlously lacking. I always say, an unsuccessful show can be built on a lot of earnest effort. A playwright was asked : “Is it hard to write a good play?” His answer: “Honey, it’s hard to write a bad play.” Work doesn’t guarantee results. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: nostamguy 03:00 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Pashacar 10:03 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| Second Stage developed the piece. Not every theater is well-suited to developing new musicals. | |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:09 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Pashacar 10:03 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| "There have been quite a few awful shows of late on similar stages, also with creative teams who've had big successes -- and happen to be white men." I'm very sorry you included that last cause in your otherwise thoughtful post. Your experience is your experience, but MY experience is that several of the awful shows I've seen in recent years -- including one I saw just last night -- had creative teams that were NOT headed by white men. And in fact, nowadays when you see shows that seem to you to be a mess and not worthy of production (or, at least, not nearly ready for production), chances are high that a considerable percentage of the creative teams will be headed by non-whites, because the major push for diversity in those areas can lead to production of shows in that category. On the other side of the coin, some theaters have produced plays I would consider unworthy of production because they were written by established playwrights with whom they have established relationships, and naturally a large percentage of those playwrights have been white men -- e.g., Terrence McNally and John Patrick Shanley, to name two that spring to mind immediately. So I guess my point is that there are lots of different examples, and we should avoid generalizations based on race. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Pashacar 07:02 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Michael_Portantiere 02:09 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
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| Bizarre to see "We should avoid generaizations based on race" and "nowadays when you see shows that seem to you to be a mess and not worthy of production (or, at least, not nearly ready for production), chances are high that a considerable percentage of the creative teams will be headed by non-whites, because the major push for diversity in those areas can lead to production of shows in that category." in the same post. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:56 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Pashacar 07:02 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
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| I don't see anything at all bizarre or inaccurate in what I wrote. Because there has fairly recently been a huge, laudable push to represent diverse voices in theater, especially in terms of playwriting, I honestly think that some (NOT all) of the plays by non-white male playwrights that feature characters of diverse races are chosen largely because they are by non-white male playwrights and feature characters of diverse races, even when the plays are not worthy of production or, at least not ready for production. Recent examples, in my opinion, include DADDY and STRAIGHT WHITE MEN. But as I also noted in my post, some plays are chosen for production because they were written by established playwrights -- very often, but not always, white men -- with whom the theater has a relationship (e.g., Terrence McNally, John Patrick Shanley), not based on the quality of the scripts. In both cases, the quality and stageworthiness of the scripts is not the primary consideration. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:01 am EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Michael_Portantiere 10:56 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
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| the problem with this, Michael, like the problem with what we discussed the other day, is that you seem to think that your (perfectly valid) take is somehow controlling or predominant. Here are two more shows in which most reviews are positive (and you don't need to tell me that your cohort is aligned with you). (SWM was written by a woman, btw...) The point you try to make here is intellectually unfathomable in any objective context. What's going on? | |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:30 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - ryhog 12:01 am EST 03/08/19 | |
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| "The problem with this, Michael, like the problem with what we discussed the other day, is that you seem to think that your (perfectly valid) take is somehow controlling or predominant. Here are two more shows in which most reviews are positive (and you don't need to tell me that your cohort is aligned with you). (SWM was written by a woman, btw...) The point you try to make here is intellectually unfathomable in any objective context." I don't know how to respond, because I think you misread my post -- evidenced by the fact that you wrote "SWM was written by a woman" as if correcting me, when that was my point in the first place. But maybe I confused you in my use of dashes, because what I meant was that neither STRAIGHT WHITE MEN nor DADDY were written by white males -- SWM was written by an Asian-American woman, DADDY by a black male (I assume African-American, but I'm not sure). And I don't think my take is "controlling" or "predominant," I just think that some plays are produced for reasons other than the quality of the writing, and there are several different reasons for that, as I noted. Of course, because it's so subjective, it's impossible to determine the percentage of unworthy plays produced for any specific reasons, so I'm not claiming that my opinion is controlling or predominant in that sense. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:50 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Michael_Portantiere 12:30 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
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| regarding the "I don't know..." paragraph, you wrote "... are chosen largely because they are by non-white male playwrights ... Recent examples, in my opinion, include DADDY and STRAIGHT WHITE MEN." I think I interpreted that correctly but I now obviously understand that you are not in fact mistaken about it. :-) Regarding the other, the resolution is not as easy. I find it unfortunate that you seemingly don't recognize the problem with what you are saying. You are trying to extrapolate from your personal opinion about these shows (that I have been clear I am not challenging) to a broader point about unworthiness that is not supportable objectively. Your premise is that these are examples of unworthy plays, but that is based only on your opinions which are not in line with the majority opinions. And again, nothing wrong with your opinions being different, but they cannot provide an intellectually sound foundation for your conclusion. And this seems to be a troubling (to me) pattern lately. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:40 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - ryhog 01:50 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
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| "Your premise is that these are examples of unworthy plays, but that is based only on your opinions which are not in line with the majority opinions. And again, nothing wrong with your opinions being different, but they cannot provide an intellectually sound foundation for your conclusion. And this seems to be a troubling (to me) pattern lately." I think I understand, and I agree that this would be troubling if it were, in fact, what I'm doing -- but I don't think this is what I'm doing. Maybe there is some confusion over what plays we're discussing in this thread? My memory of STRAIGHT WHITE MEN is that many of the reviews for the play itself were mixed to negative, and although I've only read three reviews of DADDY in the past couple of days, there were all very negative. As far as Shanley and McNally, so many of their plays have been so negatively received that I hardly think I need cite any examples. Can you specify which examples I've given of plays I consider unworthy where that opinion was not in line with the majority? And before you bring up TORCH SONG again, I can only repeat that a LOT of the word of mouth that I PERSONALLY heard about the recent production was very negative -- but I do recognize that this does not comport with the majority of reviews that were written by professional theater critics. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 06:46 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Michael_Portantiere 03:40 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
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| The reviews of Straight White Men were overwhelmingly positive, the only truly negative reviews from substantial sources being Hilton Als and Terry Teachout. The reviews of Daddy are definitely more mixed but overall not negative or "very negative." Those are the examples. (I'll put Torch Song to bed.) So perhaps your premise on the two is flawed based on factual mistakes rather than on some pathological resistance (:-) ) to facts, and now that you can see the facts hopefully you can appreciate the issue I am/was having. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 09:43 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - ryhog 06:46 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
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| The argument that there is not a resistance to facts would only hold water if we hadn't already had at least one conversation in which the reviews of SWM were claimed to be negative and proven to be positive. That didn't change the argument then, and I doubt it will change the argument now. After all, if anyone wanted to check their memory of the reviews, they could quickly visit Show Score and confirm that SWM sits at 72/73 with critics and audiences, which in Show Score parlance means 4 stars. | |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:22 am EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - ryhog 12:01 am EST 03/08/19 | |
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| I'm still curious to find out how people of color making generally lighthearted jokes about white people which are targeted towards the powerful rather than the powerless is akin to Nazis making jokes about Jews in the 1930s. We've never cleared that up. | |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:53 am EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Pashacar 10:03 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| I think we have to step back and ask what we want off-B non-profits to do. Do we want them to produce only work that has been proven in advance? Or do we want them to be incubators? The risk in the latter is that it means we are not taking enough risks, and when we don't, we miss out on lots. Yes there is a balance that is a good thing: we don't want theatres to turn into fringe festivals. But when a show with this pedigree of creatives comes along, I don't think we insist it be sent to development hell. Speaking of which, we kvetch about development hell too. :-) So getting back to my question: is 2ST's mission to guarantee the quality of what it offers to audiences? or is it to do what a non-profit can do and take a lot of risk? To me the excitement of theatre is in the high wire act. Do you really want to watch American Ninja Warrior and not see anyone get wet? |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 09:56 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - ryhog 11:53 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| I would agree with that if anything about this show suggested it was risky or edgy. I get the exact opposite impression. This one seems like it was programmed primarily because the names involved would sell subscriptions. Nothing makes me more delighted than to see theater compared to Ninja Warrior :-) , and it is true that writing a good musical is as hard and as rare as finishing Stage 2 (never mind Stage 3 or Mount Midoriyama), but I still watch it to see people succeed. That's actually one of the reasons that I don't watch any of the qualifying runs, because most of the competitors aren't qualified enough to hit the buzzer. And yes, it is compelling to watch a great run fail at the cusp of victory, but Superhero seems more akin to watching Geoff Britten slip on the first obstacle after finishing Stage 4 the year before. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:42 am EST 03/09/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Singapore/Fling 09:56 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
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| always happy to spread a little delight in this delight-starved world of ours. Although I wonder if what you wrote will prove more perplexing to some as the other perplexing posts in this thread. :-) I don't think a show has to be edgy (or risky in the edgy sense) to warrant the incubator. I think Kitt and Logan (and Carole Rothman) would be shocked to hear their names are selling season subscriptions and I'd be surprised if you could connect more than a handful to that. That said, I don't feel quite as skeptical of the worthiness of the undertaking, even though it wasn't good. I think putting a pair of award winning creatives in a room is not the worst thing for a theatre company to do. I see that Scott Rudin has commissioned 2 new plays from Jeremy Harris. Some here might say that's unworthy. :-) |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 12:06 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - ryhog 11:53 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| I think that, if you are a subscriber at a theatre that presents largely new work, part of the deal is that you acknowledge that not every production is going to be great or even good. But I would think that the reason you're subscribing is that you like the game of chance or that you have a reasonable expectation that you'll see something over the season that makes all the not-so-great stuff worth it. So there's never going to be a guarantee of anything, including the titles presented in any given season. That's just part of the bargain. The audience is subscribing to the theatre, more so than any particular slate of productions because they trust that the theatre will present material that they find worthwhile in one way or another. If the theatre breaks that trust enough, that's when the audiences will start going elsewhere. One of the great things about New York is that you have institutional theatres to fit every sensibility...places that present almost entirely new work, places that present almost entirely revivals of known work, and places that do a mixture, so, if your favorite company starts letting you down, you have plenty of choice if you decide to go elsewhere. |
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| Thank you for asking this question | |
| Last Edit: gad90210 11:17 am EST 03/07/19 | |
| Posted by: gad90210 11:15 am EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Pashacar 10:03 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| I thought the same thing as I watched Superhero, and This Ain't No Disco, and I have tickets to Alice by Heart too! I intend to have a nice, strong cocktail before seeing that one. I know commercial producers were attached to Superhero, and I imagine for This Ain't No Disco also. I'm wondering if the producing muscle tends to convince theaters to sign on. After all, money talks. Then I guess the question becomes, What would move a producer to take a chance on this? Does anyone know the history of Superhero? Was it workshopped adequately? |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: JayBee 11:15 am EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Pashacar 10:03 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| You had me until the unnecessary comment about white men. There is also a lot of inferior, underdeveloped work being produced merely because their authors are of diverse ethnicities. | |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:51 am EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - JayBee 11:15 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| Well, this year. We'll see if the trend continues. In terms of the OP's comment, the reference to white men also threw me, because the real reason this work is being produced is that the creatives involved all had a big hit at some other time, which makes them an easier sell. And because the comment erased Jessie Nelson, the female co-creator of "Alice by Heart", who also has had phenomenal success on Broadway. And I know that Duncan Sheik, at least, has plenty of not very good musicals that aren't getting produced, so his name and his white maleness alone aren't enough to get everything he does produced. Why did these shows get produced? Sometimes it is about a personal relationship that a theater wants to honor. Sometimes it is about supporting an artist through work both good and not so good. Sometimes it is about an entity with money paying for the show. And sometimes it is because the producers think the show will come together, because other shows that were just as rough on paper or in workshop came together. (I also think Second Stage didn't really learn the right lessons from "Next to Normal".) The only way to truly know is to be involved in the producing conversations at each theater. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:41 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Singapore/Fling 11:51 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| I also think Second Stage didn't really learn the right lessons from "Next to Normal" This is more like "Superhero and the Invisible Show" perhaps? ;-) |
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| The reason I mentioned white men... | |
| Posted by: Pashacar 12:51 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Singapore/Fling 11:51 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| ...is largely because of Suerhero's content. While it's not actively offensive (I mean, it's not actively anything), it has plenty of cringeworthy moments that lack a particular kind of emotional intelligence, which multiple in my group said would never have looked that way had a woman been in the room. Once that comment was made, we checked the playbill and sure enough the creative team was entirely white men. I have nothing against this group, or white men anywhere in the industry, but obviously they're very well represented, and letting any background or perspective monopolize the creative process makes it more likely that important stones will be left unturned, as they were in this show. | |
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| re: The reason I mentioned white men... | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:15 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: The reason I mentioned white men... - Pashacar 12:51 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
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| "It has plenty of cringeworthy moments that lack a particular kind of emotional intelligence, which multiple in my group said would never have looked that way had a woman been in the room." I THINK I know what you mean, but : Are you seriously suggesting that all women necessarily have a "particular kind of emotional intelligence" that all men lack? |
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| Yes | |
| Posted by: Pashacar 06:57 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: re: The reason I mentioned white men... - Michael_Portantiere 02:15 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
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| "I THINK I know what you mean, but : Are you seriously suggesting that all women necessarily have a "particular kind of emotional intelligence" that all men lack?" In short, yes. Women and men have different experiences going through life as a result of being in one group vs the other; as such, they bring different perspectives. The same can be said for folks in different groups of religion, ethnicity, of ability. I'm not ranking one over another, just saying that diversity of perspectives is a good thing. |
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| re: Yes | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:02 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: Yes - Pashacar 06:57 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
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| Saying that women in general have different perspectives than men in general is not the same as saying that all women have a particular kind of emotional intelligence that all men lack. I think it's safe to say that some men (e.g., Barack Obama) have more emotional intelligence than some women (e.g., Sarah Palin). | |
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| re: The reason I mentioned white men... | |
| Posted by: winters 01:27 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: The reason I mentioned white men... - Pashacar 12:51 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
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| "I have nothing against this group, or white men anywhere in the industry......" That's very liberal and accepting of you. Perhaps you need to revisit this statement. I have not seen the play. Perhaps the producers and the other creatives saw something in it that did not come to fruition. Or maybe they think it did but you and others do not. It is a given that women and minorities are under represented in theater. Statements like yours are not helpful in that conversation. |
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| re: The reason I mentioned white men... | |
| Posted by: Pashacar 06:59 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: re: The reason I mentioned white men... - winters 01:27 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
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| Can you explain in more detail the issue you see with this statement? | |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: WaHiGuy 10:31 am EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Pashacar 10:03 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| I have to wonder that for an organization like 2nd Stage, with the pressure to fill stages, has to push forward properties that aren't ready for an audience. | |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Ann 10:37 am EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - WaHiGuy 10:31 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| They aren't the only ones who have done this. And, yes, writing credentials do count and are probably too often enough to take something forward (and there is a history with this one). Though I liked this show more than the original poster. How many brand new plays/musicals are big successes? |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 10:50 am EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Ann 10:37 am EST 03/07/19 | |
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| Ann is absolutely correct...institutional theatres work hard to maintain relationships with writers and sometimes that means taking a chance on a piece that may not be ready or just simply may not be any good. It's worth it to them because, even though this particular play or musical may flop, the next one or the one after that could be a solid gold hit that goes to Broadway and pays them residuals for the next 20+ years. Every institutional theatre is searching for an A CHORUS LINE or a RENT to bring in money over a long period of time. That money can sustain the theatre and allow them to take chances that they wouldn't otherwise have been able to afford. |
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